Huge Research Findings

[Gobble4me757]

https://turkeysfortomorrow.org/funding-critical-research-in-tennessee/
I've been saying from the get go that trapping nest predators is the key to Turkey survival and was the only thing proven to increase egg numbers thus poult numbers. Screw Chamberlain's Dominant gobbler "THEORY". Limiting the season and pushing it back as well as decreasing limits are not the limiting factor…heck, they don't do anything but screw the hunters. Big Findings proving what a lot of us have been saying all along.

 

[knightrider]

No poults=no turkeys it's pretty simple

 

[Gobble4me757]

No poults=no turkeys it's pretty simple

Exactly. There was research proving this fact from the 90s but people wanted to believe this new unproven theory that brought money and popularity to Chamberlain…screw him as well as TWRA and my home state of Bama following suit

 

[hammer33]

If you really want to balance out the nest predators, put incentive in place to trap/hunt them.
NWTF should Run a contest with some high profile chefs to create the next "buffalo chicken wing" craze.
Back when I was a kid, chicken wings and brisket were considered low quality "poor people" food.
Somebody slapped some sauce on the wings and started charging $$$ for it and now wings are the most expensive part of a chicken.
If some snooty chefs would create some recipes for Raccoon/possum then trapping and hunting them would increase. Think of a BBQ competition with Ribs, chicken, pork butt, Raccoon, and brisket.

This will probably never happen because there isn't going to be much money in it for anyone.

 

[th88]

Always have really liked Dr. Harper. He is a straight forward, no BS type of guy who can take the science and put it in understandable layman's terms. Great at helping landowners/land managers understand the best management practices to implement on their properties. Best of all, he doesn't have to use social media as a crutch to build his popularity and "worth". Very glad to see him on this project!

 

[Buzzard Breath]

I'm glad to see that the research is actually coming up with some results, but I don't find it very encouraging. People that are going to trap nest predators are already doing it. I don't think the findings of this research project is going to recruit enough additional people to have any sort of significant results.

 

[Boll Weevil]

^ This.

To some degree, it just ain't rocket science but for whatever reason(s) people don't trap. For me, the incentive to trap and improve habitat is pretty simple: having turkeys to hunt. I totally understand there are likely other factors contributing to turkey populations but if I can help save a nest or 3 by removing raiders why wouldn't I? Possum, skunk, coon trapping open all year/no limit. Add armadillos and it can absolutely make an impact.

 

[deerfever]

Thanks for posting! Good to see actual facts and data that will make a difference come out rather than a theory that may have no merit. Imagine all the states that changed seasons based on what? I guess I will have to somewhat take up for TWRA if I remember correctly the agency actually recommended no changes to finish the study ( correct me if wrong) but commission moved forward with changes to our season and limit anyway. Pretty obvious from the pictures on this site just this year and all the success TN has had in the past with turkeys flourishing that nothing was wrong with our opener. I am hopeful that once people see how big a difference trapping makes more will get started. A couple of dog proofs and mini marshmallows made a huge difference for my property removing several coons and possums.

 

[AT Hiker]

I'm glad to see that the research is actually coming up with some results, but I don't find it very encouraging. People that are going to trap nest predators are already doing it. I don't think the findings of this research project is going to recruit enough additional people to have any sort of significant results.

"…Predation of nests and poults (this study and others) has been shown to be the single factor most responsible for poor productivity. However, managing predator populations directly through legal trapping and hunting has been shown to be virtually impossible except in very localized and intensely managed situations (Garrettson and Rohwer 2001, Pearse and Ratti 2004). Therefore, the only available management alternative is to improve habitat quality with the goal of making nesting sites and brooding-rearing areas less susceptible to predation…"

https://trace.tennessee.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=7094&context=utk_gradthes

 

[Buzzard Breath]

"…Predation of nests and poults (this study and others) has been shown to be the single factor most responsible for poor productivity. However, managing predator populations directly through legal trapping and hunting has been shown to be virtually impossible except in very localized and intensely managed situations (Garrettson and Rohwer 2001, Pearse and Ratti 2004). Therefore, the only available management alternative is to improve habitat quality with the goal of making nesting sites and brooding-rearing areas less susceptible to predation…"

https://trace.tennessee.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=7094&context=utk_gradthes

Interesting, and it makes sense.

I haven't gone through the whole thing, but page 66-68 gives a good summary of what I initially find informative.

"Management that increases forb abundance and facilitates movements on the landscape may increase poult survival during the critical first 30 days of life and ultimately mitigate apparent population declines."

 

[AT Hiker]

Interesting, and it makes sense.

I haven't gone through the whole thing, but page 66-68 gives a good summary of what I initially find informative.

"Management that increases forb abundance and facilitates movements on the landscape may increase poult survival during the critical first 30 days of life and ultimately mitigate apparent population declines."

To be clear, the article is a couple years old. Dr Harper has been on the predator train for a while. I'd love to read the new study and see how it compares to previous ones.

As for the habitat. Would be great if a "best practices" could be established to counter the predators.

 

[AT Hiker]

Dr. Harper is to predators as Tn Deer political forum is to liberals. It's all their fault no matter what.

 

[Buzzard Breath]

To be clear, the article is a couple years old. Dr Harper has been on the predator train for a while. I'd love to read the new study and see how it compares to previous ones.

As for the habitat. Would be great if a "best practices" could be established to counter the predators.

Wouldn't the publisher of the thesis have studied under Dr. Harper?

 

[AT Hiker]

Wouldn't the publisher of the thesis have studied under Dr. Harper?

The author of the thesis had Dr Buehler as his major professor but Harper and few others signed off on it.

I'll be anxious to read the latest study and see how it compares to previous research, I suspect they didn't discover anything ground breaking or huge as the thread title suggest.
Basically, Dr Harper and others (who are much smarter than me) have claimed predators as the issue. On the flip side, others (who are much smarter than me) are reluctant to put all the blame on "neat" raiders

 

[fairchaser]

I wish that these changes to the regs were the result of long standing and proven scientific study rather than the speculation of a few zealots. Dr. Harper's study basically agrees with the first hand findings of many turkey hunters who see the after effects of broken eggs and destroyed nests along with small numbers of surviving poults. This idea that hens aren't bred because the dominant bird is killed early on sounds like the idea that only mature bucks breed does. DNA studies have proven this falsehood too. When two are three changes are made simultaneously, you can't prove which if any are beneficial to the results. Moving season dates and reducing limits are too drastic imo.

 

[Gravey]

I'd love to get into trapping but my lease is an hour and a half away so can't check traps daily.

 

[AT Hiker]

I wish that these changes to the regs were the result of long standing and proven scientific study rather than the speculation of a few zealots. Dr. Harper's study basically agrees with the first hand findings of many turkey hunters who see the after effects of broken eggs and destroyed nests along with small numbers of surviving poults. This idea that hens aren't bred because the dominant bird is killed early on sounds like the idea that only mature bucks breed does. DNA studies have proven this falsehood too. When two are three changes are made simultaneously, you can't prove which if any are beneficial to the results. Moving season dates and reducing limits are too drastic imo.

Turkeys are the most Morom critter we hunt, they don't care who they mate with nor how many they mate with.

 

[Gobble4me757]

Turkeys are the most Moron critter we hunt, they don't care who they mate with nor how many they mate with.

Yep per of the theory that Chamberlain has come up with states that killing the dominant bird will halt or slow the breeding…I've killed the dominant gobbler for years early on multiple properties and have seen the subordinates immediately get with the other hens breeding them…it's garbage. Of course, I'm merely stating an Obersvation…which is like his…a Theory as both are unproven…I just don't get social media famous for mine

 

[woodsman04]

I am still on the it is everything band wagon.

I do not believe the dominant gobbler theory. But what I do believe is the high number of gobblers getting killed on opening day with decoys has had an affect. There is still breeding to be had well into the spring season.

The southern counties have only had a delayed season for two years. I'm a big data guy. That isn't enough time to see if it has helped.

I am not much of a fan on the delayed season, but I'll deal with it. I am totally against the limits being brought down.
All this has done is screwed the hunters.

I also think the NWTF has destroyed turkey hunting with their woke people. They may have saved it in the 80s and 90s. But now they are ruining it.

 

[megalomaniac]

I wish that these changes to the regs were the result of long standing and proven scientific study rather than the speculation of a few zealots. Dr. Harper's study basically agrees with the first hand findings of many turkey hunters who see the after effects of broken eggs and destroyed nests along with small numbers of surviving poults. This idea that hens aren't bred because the dominant bird is killed early on sounds like the idea that only mature bucks breed does. DNA studies have proven this falsehood too. When two are three changes are made simultaneously, you can't prove which if any are beneficial to the results. Moving season dates and reducing limits are too drastic imo.

What about the GPS collared studies proving the majority of nest initiation in TN isn't until late April / early May? It's well known that turkey hens allow toms to mate with them about 8 to 10 days before they initiate nests, and will allow multiple toms to mate with them if males are still alive to ensure maximum fertility during egglaying.

Forget the 'dominant tom' theory... in many places there may only 1 or 2 toms for miles. Kill them off before the hens have bred and see how many eggs hatch even if every single predator is removed.

Now don't get me wrong... nest predation is the single no 1 reason for loss of adult hens and their eggs. But good luck getting more than 2 to 3% of even the most avid turkey hunters to run traps. We got lucky last spring in TN with the dry weather... simply because the predators had a harder time smelling for wet hens setting.... it wasn't due to more turkey hunters removing more nest predators.

 

[fairchaser]

What about the GPS collared studies proving the majority of nest initiation in TN isn't until late April / early May? It's well known that turkey hens allow toms to mate with them about 8 to 10 days before they initiate nests, and will allow multiple toms to mate with them if males are still alive to ensure maximum fertility during egglaying.

Forget the 'dominant tom' theory... in many places there may only 1 or 2 toms for miles. Kill them off before the hens have bred and see how many eggs hatch even if every single predator is removed.

Now don't get me wrong... nest predation is the single no 1 reason for loss of adult hens and their eggs. But good luck getting more than 2 to 3% of even the most avid turkey hunters to run traps. We got lucky last spring in TN with the dry weather... simply because the predators had a harder time smelling for wet hens setting.... it wasn't due to more turkey hunters removing more nest predators.

I agree that something needs to be done because I see the declines too. But, one thing at a time please. Throwing everything at the wall to see what sticks is not management but desperation.

 

[Roost 1]

If some of you guys had your way there wouldn't be any turkeys left. Regardless of the reasons you can not manage a declining population the same way as either a growing or stable population. The regulation changes are about 5yrs too late. Sometimes we just have to put the good of the resource above our selfish wants.
I'll say it again, Quit feeding the birds and your nest predator problem will go away!!

 

[Outdoor Enthusiast]

I agree that something needs to be done because I see the declines too. But, one thing at a time please. Throwing everything at the wall to see what sticks is not management but desperation.

It may be that desperation is the appropriate way to describe it. It seems the outlook is grim.

 

[fairchaser]

It may be that desperation is the appropriate way to describe it. It seems the outlook is grim.

Often it takes many seasons, even a decade to determine what management changes will work. There are many variables involved in the rise and fall of game levels. Effective management changes can be disguised by normal year to year changes. Once rule changes are effective and proven over many years, they can be relied on. These are known practices but this feels more knee jerk. In a year or two, there will be something else.

 

[Outdoor Enthusiast]

Often it takes many seasons, even a decade to determine what management changes will work. There are many variables involved in the rise and fall of game levels. Effective management changes can be disguised by normal year to year changes. Once rule changes are effective and proven over many years, they can be relied on. These are known practices but this feels more knee jerk. In a year or two, there will be something else.

Yeah I agree.

I know that for myself I am starting to dabble with trapping nest predators this winter. It may not make much difference, but trying to do my part as best I can.

My oldest daughter is just now getting old enough to shoot a small shotgun so I am certainly interested in helping her have an opportunity to hunt turkeys like I have.

 

[deerfever]

It may be that desperation is the appropriate way to describe it. It seems the outlook is grim.

All the positive post of good hatches, pictures and videos of fields full of turkeys on this site give us all reason to be very optimistic. I have not seen this many pictures, videos and talk of good hatches since I have been on this site. The outlook seems to be looking up! Any amount of trapping and nest predators you can take out will make a difference. Good luck with your trapping!

 

[Steverino]

So is the theory of chicken farms and some kind of bird virus not really the case - especially in Giles where in my area turkeys are rare. I do see a coyote here and there on the cameras but usually not much of them either.

 

[JCDEERMAN]

We've really trapped like hell in 2022. Saw tons more poults than I ever remember in the 23 years we've had the place.

2020: 12 coons, skunks and grinners
2021: 25 coons, skunks and grinners
2022: 93 coons skunks and grinners

About 30 armadillos each of the last 8 years or so

I've seen more turkeys this fall/winter than ever before. We have a flock of 17 gobblers roaming around. Several flocks of 20-30 hens. I know these are winter flocks and may not be anywhere around come spring, that's just what we've observed. Of course, we've made some major habitat improvements as well.

 

[poorhunter]

Nest raiders have always been the number one predator problem for turkeys. Always have and always will. There is no "controlling" them to the point that it will make a reasonable impact on turkey production without something like poisoning them. The decline of the wild turkey in Tennessee was not because of nest raiders.