Yes. Our live weights are quite a bit higher as well.I was going to ask the same thing, because our body weights (live weight) per age-class are MUCH higher than that.
Yes. Our live weights are quite a bit higher as well.I was going to ask the same thing, because our body weights (live weight) per age-class are MUCH higher than that.
That's been the million dollar question in my head all along. They either didn't expand into their fall ranges, or they're dead. If they didn't expand, they have to be on someone's property? We had close to a dozen 2.5 or older deer during the summer. However, only 4 of those have been pictured this fall. What gives?I beginning to consider the idea that the older bucks simply didn't expand their ranges for the rut. Because it is well known that in a hardwood environment buck sign-making (rubs and scrapes) is heavily influenced by acorn crops (average animal health), perhaps the deer were in such poor shape from the drought conditions and lack of acorns that they didn't expand their ranges much for the rut this year. That is the only thing I can think of that would explain the "lack of new bucks showing up on cam for the rut" that so many in the region have been complaining about.
I was going to ask the same thing, because our body weights (live weight) per age-class are MUCH higher than that.
Again, great questions I don't have answers for. I personally don't believe all the older bucks are dead. I would have been getting reports of lots of deer found dead (like in a big EHD outbreak). In fact, I seriously worried about that with our drought conditions and heat this summer, but calls to all my clients asking them to look for EHD victims came up basically zero.That's been the million dollar question in my head all along. They either didn't expand into their fall ranges, or they're dead. If they didn't expand, they have to be on someone's property? We had close to a dozen 2.5 or older deer during the summer. However, only 4 of those have been pictured this fall. What gives?
I would find it hard to believe they are there, but just not getting pictured. Our typical camera setups are not just over scrapes, but in high traffic corridors. Or a food plot with a scrape tree placed 5 yards or so into the plot. These setups serve a dual purpose and have worked for two decades. Would love to see a GPS collar study on a year such as this one
That's been the million dollar question in my head all along. They either didn't expand into their fall ranges, or they're dead. If they didn't expand, they have to be on someone's property? We had close to a dozen 2.5 or older deer during the summer. However, only 4 of those have been pictured this fall. What gives?
I would speculate hunter high-grading (both antlers and "big bodied" bucks) has more to do with this than rut participation of 3 1/2s vs mature. Commonly, the highest scoring racks for an area will also come from 3 1/2-yr-old bucks (even though about as many 4 1/2 & older ones get killed same season).Strangely, 4 1/2 and 5 1/2 year-old bucks don't weigh any more (on average) than our 3 1/2 year-old bucks. In fact, some of our highest body weights have come from 3 1/2 year-old bucks, not mature bucks.
I'm talking body weight, and I've found no correlation between body weight and antler size.I would speculate hunter high-grading (both antlers and "big bodied" bucks) has more to do with this than rut participation of 3 1/2s vs mature. Commonly, the highest scoring racks for an area will also come from 3 1/2-yr-old bucks (even though about as many 4 1/2 & older ones get killed same season).
I understand that.I'm talking body weight, and I've found no correlation between body weight and antler size.
Generally true.I highly doubt hunters select by body size. They select by antler size.
I highly doubt hunters select by body size. They select by antler size.
Just add a bit to this . . . .I highly doubt hunters select by body size. They select by antler size.
Live weight. Hills, hollows, planted pines & plots. No ag land to speak of for several miles. We'll kill a 200#+ every 2-3 years depending on acorns.Are those dressed or live weights? Just curious.
My favorite buck I've killed was 6.5 yrs old. 14 pt and although I've killed bigger bucks his age and mass made it. I study everything before shooting , sometimes it costs me the shot but that's what I like to do .Just add a bit to this . . . .
A growing number of hunters are defining a "shooter" buck as much by age as by antlers.
Just to be clear, antlers matter, but nearly every year, I pass up some 3 1/2's with higher scoring antlers than a mature buck I target (and may or may not kill). Most years, I also pass up some 4 1/2 & older bucks because of their below par (and/or broken up) antlers.
I'm not complaining, and am very happy with my style of hunting. Just pointing out that when one focuses greatly on age, this has the additional side effect of selecting by body size. Most mature bucks should have larger bodies than most 3 1/2s.
Even if the mature buck weighs less on a certain date, he will often "appear" to have a larger body due to greater chest depth, wider body, greater belly sag, and maybe a slightly larger skeletal frame. A 4 1/2 will often "appear" to have a larger body than a 3 1/2, even when both weigh the same. This is even more the case when comparing a 5 1/2 to a 3 1/2.
All of my "target" bucks are 5 1/2 or older.
I believe it's also fair to say I'm selecting as much by body size as by antlers,
simply because of the average size differences between mature bucks
and bucks 3 1/2 & younger.
I'm with Boll Weevil and Tellico on this. I would harvest mature deer (based on body characteristics) and let the horns do what they do. Research has shown that feeding the deer protein in the summer, planting summer food plots and good quality food plots for the winter/early spring will make the deer bodies bigger - but will only add maybe 10-15% more inches in the horn department. Unless you have several thousand acres that is under your control or a high fence, you will have a very difficult time improving the genetics as many of the 1.5 year old bucks will migrate off your property and make their home range miles away and other new bucks will migrate in. It is always disappointing to do lots of habitat improvements only to see your young bucks migrate away or have your neighbor harvest that nice 2-1/2 year old buck that you let walk.We manage about 800ac in ag country and target 5.5+ yr olds regardless of headgear. If you're only trying to get them to 3 or 4, they aren't likely reaching their antler potential.
There is essentially nothing we can do about when a deer is born as mother nature will be mother nature. However, research has shown that a "great" buck will typically be very healthy (body wise) going into that first winter. To alter this, you have to make sure you have good food and nutrition for the pregnant does and for the nursing does. Habitat wise, this will typically require some quality food sources in February to April and some healthy summer food plots during the summer when the does are nursing. I've been doing this on our place the past couple years and during bow season I am seeing some fawns (with spots) that are bigger than yearlings. Time will tell if this results in bigger racks on our property - but I like seeing healthy deer.Generally true.
But birth date effects both antler size & body size on younger bucks doesn't it?
An early born 1 1/2-yr-old buck will usually have both a larger body & larger antlers than one born late? Same for 2 1/2?
Seems plausible this birth-date effect on both body size & antlers will still be having some effect even at 3 1/2?
I can see the point you are making regarding high grading based on body size as well as antlers. I tend to target 3.5 and older bucks as my goal. They are usually larger in body and rack than the younger bucks.Just add a bit to this . . . .
A growing number of hunters are defining a "shooter" buck as much by age as by antlers.
Just to be clear, antlers matter, but nearly every year, I pass up some 3 1/2's with higher scoring antlers than a mature buck I target (and may or may not kill). Most years, I also pass up some 4 1/2 & older bucks because of their below par (and/or broken up) antlers.
I'm not complaining, and am very happy with my style of hunting. Just pointing out that when one focuses greatly on age, this has the additional side effect of selecting by body size. Most mature bucks should have larger bodies than most 3 1/2s.
Even if the mature buck weighs less on a certain date, he will often "appear" to have a larger body due to greater chest depth, wider body, greater belly sag, and maybe a slightly larger skeletal frame. A 4 1/2 will often "appear" to have a larger body than a 3 1/2, even when both weigh the same. This is even more the case when comparing a 5 1/2 to a 3 1/2.
All of my "target" bucks are 5 1/2 or older.
I believe it's also fair to say I'm selecting as much by body size as by antlers,
simply because of the average size differences between mature bucks
and bucks 3 1/2 & younger.