Deer Hunting Ames Plantation

[david k.]

I don't care if it is QDM TQM or PTA, Ames has rules and you have to abide and I have no problem with their rules in general. I was primed and ready to join several years ago but was stopped cold because there was (is?) no Family membership. You have to pay full fare for each shooter. Well, okay, that's the rule, I can't afford that, the boys were 13 or 14 at the time, cannot abide, no join. I can see their perspective, I'll let it go at that.

I have a son as well and your children can hunt as youths up until they are 18 years old and ARE NOT restricted by the "Membership Only" dates.

Your children can hunt on their own but your membership is restriced to only 2 bucks for the year so if each of your son kills a buck, you are done buck hunting for the year. My son and I each killed scoring deer a few years ago but he has transitions to 2 legged deer and hardly goes anymore.

The fact is that one membership fee is all you would have to pay and your boys can hunt with you. Call Beth Hanna at Ames and ask for a copy of the agreement.

 

[Bucks & Beards]

The reason it such a big deal in what the Ames Program is called is simple. To call the program a modified Trophy management or something other than QDM is tantamount to saying that Ames management is either incompetent or disengenous. They are neither.

Ames stated goal is to protect all bucks until they reach 3.5 years old. In having this goal, they realize the practical application of this is to have some 2.5 yr old bucks in the harvest. They know they must build a cushion into the program or risk having the program set back for many years. As an example, one year, they allowed hunters to take their horns on bucks that were underaged if they paid their fines. Some deep pocket hunters shot what they wanted and paid the fines and that year of killing too many young bucks set the entire program back several years. Since they changed the rule that said you left the horns on certain mistakes, the numbers went way down. Anytime you go from idealogical to the practical, you must build a cushion due to unforeseen circumstances and human error.

QDM typically protects the 1.5 and some 2.5 year old bucks. Ames program even with their seemingly higher standard still only protects 95% of the 2.5 year old bucks. Following is a good discussion of their rationale for setting their standards.

"To achieve the goal at Ames, there must be some trait that can be recognized among bucks to differentiate shooters from the bucks that are younger than 3-years-old. The best of all situations would be to use the body characteristics to separate age classes. However, these are subtle, especially between 3 and 4-year-old bucks. Instead, bucks with 125 inches of antler, as determined by the Boone and Crockett scoring system, is a reasonable way to protect bucks less than 3-years-old. The rule protects all yearlings and more than 95% of the 2-year-old bucks.

Ames implementation of QDM will naturally vary from other programs. However IMO they are implementing a QDM program not a trophy management program.

Thanks for the post, fairchaser. This post sums up this whole discussion for me in a nice tidy package. And, I'm with you in your conclusion in the final paragraph.

 

[Winchester]

It is what it is, just don't be scared to admit it! I don't see the problem with Ames TDM and see no reason to try and disguise it as true QDM?
Also how many 2.5 yr old bucks have been killed each yr that legitimately score 125?? Just curious?

I'd say that usually one 2.5 year old deer is shot each year that scores over 125". I shot one with a bow 2 years ago and Andy S., who is on here a lot, shot a really nice one as well. I don't know if a 2.5 that scores over 125" has been shot this year.

That really doesn't paint the whole picture though, a lot of us really try to pass up 2.5 year old bucks regardless of score.

Actually, when I shot mine with a bow, I thought I was shooting a 3.5, 130" deer...we all know that things sometimes happen really quickly and the "shoot / don't shoot" decision has to be made in a matter of a few seconds or the opportunity is lost.

That's what happened to me...buck comes busting out of a thicket at about 10 yards, I had about 2-3 seconds to size him up before he was going to bust me. It was early in bow season and everything told me 3.5 and @ 130" so I drew and shot. He ended up being aged at 2.5 and 126.5" so, fortunately, I was good.

In hindsight, I'd have like to have let him go another year but it is what it is.

Thanks for the response David and exactly what I expected. Very very few free ranging deer will exceed 125 inches of antler at 2.5 yrs old in TN. So for all practical purposes bucks at Ames are protected until a min of 3.5 and in many cases 4.5 and I think that's great. These type rules are exactly how you get to growing trophy bucks in decent #'s. Like I said before I wish I was closer as I also like the rules in place as I also try not to shoot anything under 3.5. I know a lot of people could care less about antlers so it wont likely ever happen, but I wish TN had more public trophy areas with these type rules in place for those who choose that type of hunting!

 

[Mike Belt]

Winchester--I couldn't agree more with those wishes. I wish there was some way to take a public "hunter's" poll to include every deer hunter and those results were considered by TWRA for just such a thing to happen. I'd love to see a few areas set up like this whereby the hunter agreed to antler size, buck age, and even potential fines for not following guide lines prior to openly hunting there.

 

[fairchaser]

It is what it is, just don't be scared to admit it! I don't see the problem with Ames TDM and see no reason to try and disguise it as true QDM?
Also how many 2.5 yr old bucks have been killed each yr that legitimately score 125?? Just curious?

Usually only 1 or 2. This year only one. But, we have been lectured about the benefits of letting 2.5 year old bucks walk in spite of their antler score.

 

[WMAn]

Ironically, SOME QDM programs in SOME locations produce more higher scoring mature bucks than SOME trophy buck management programs in other locations. For example, even if not necessarily intentional, the Ft. Campbell WMA is "possibly" more a QDM-style management program than Ames. More ironically, there are zero antler restrictions at Ft. Campbell, and ANY buck is legal game. Both Ames and Ft. Campbell protect young bucks; Ames does it with antler (and buck age) restrictions while Ft. Campbell does it simply instead with a 1-buck limit. I'll try to stop splitting hairs, but I believe the harvest data for mature bucks scoring 140-plus at Ft. Campbell will compare favorably to that of Ames, and may be suggestive that a total lack of antler restrictions has the "side benefit" of higher-scoring antlers among the mature buck cohort (since a lack of antler restrictions reduces antler high-grading of the very largest antlered 2 1/2 & 3 1/2-yr-old bucks, allowing a higher percentage of those to be among those surviving to maturity).

Wes,

This is my biggest question/concern about the approach Ames takes. If we assume that the hunters at Ames overall possess a greater skill set than the average TN hunter, then it is reasonable to take their buck harvest as representative of what Ames is capable of producing.

Based on this assumption and judging bucks by score, a good 3.5+ buck will score 120", a great one 140", and the truly exceptional 150". Ames appears to have a ceiling of 160".

If Ames were located somewhere else, along the MS river for example, their antler restrictions would be much more attractive and possibly effective. Letting a 125" deer walk is a lot easier if you know the area you hunt has a much higher ceiling and a greater number of bucks at all sizes between 125" and the higher ceiling.

Winchester--I couldn't agree more with those wishes. I wish there was some way to take a public "hunter's" poll to include every deer hunter and those results were considered by TWRA for just such a thing to happen. I'd love to see a few areas set up like this whereby the hunter agreed to antler size, buck age, and even potential fines for not following guide lines prior to openly hunting there.

Mike,

How large of an area are you suggesting TWRA impose buck restrictions on? County wide? Region wide?

I think TWRA has chosen the best possible option here. Antler restrictions on WMAs and only on those WMAs where they will have the biggest impact.

I hunt MS, and I despise large scale antler restrictions. They suck the fun out of hunting for those who abide by the law and are meaningless to those who ignore the law.

 

[Mike Belt]

I wouldn't object to an area specific WMA in a certain county voted on by those county residents that typically hunt there. That way if the majority of the hunters there wanted to make that move it would be the result of say, a NE Tn hunter getting what he wanted as opposed to a SW Tn deer hunter dictating how the NE Tn deer hunter hunted...sort of I'll hunt my way in my backyard and you do the same in yours approach. I doubt that will ever happen and it would probably be a night mare to control.

I don't know that you could assume Ames' hunters possess a greater skill set than the average Tn hunter or that they just have the good fortune of being able to hunt where more older bucks exist. When I'm really on my game I consider myself to be maybe a hair above average but I can get sloppy. Still in my 7 years or so at Ames I've let in excess of 30 125" bucks walk and about a dozen 130's or better. I've finally come to the realization that if I want to make a kill every year (or even every other) I'm going to have to quit holding out for one of our rare 140's or even rarer 150's.

I will add another note that I've observed hunting at Ames. I'm a big proponent of calling to deer; both bucks and does. I've called in a bunch of deer over the years and heard deer vocalizations almost everywhere I've hunted....except Ames. That place has the least vocal and least responsive to calling deer I have ever hunted. I've called a few in but not many. A worthy side note is that the bucks respond better to rattling than most other places I've hunted. Maybe both can be attributed to older age class bucks????

 

[bryan1967]

BSK, you are right on the money with your assessment of Ames. It's no QDM program. It's run by a quail biologist and a tree biologist (government tenured employees) who are very good at convincing its membership to believe everything they say is true. They have made many changes in rules over the years, but you will never hear them admit they have made a mistake. In their own eyes (and apparently the eyes of their hunting groupies) they can do no wrong. But the data will show that they have not met their long-term expectations. I have spoken to Craig Harper and he even said that Ames does not always follow his recommendations for QDM. It has peaked. It's a 130" deer club for a select few. In a seasoned QDM club, a hunter shouldn't average 1 buck every 3 to 4 years. That's definitely closer to Trophy management. But you can't convince the hardcore Ames groupies. They are drinking the Ames Kool-Aid.

 

[TheLBLman]

Just to put things in a better perspective, I would guess few hunters living within a 50-mile radius of Ames, including both the happy and the unhappy, have a deer hunting opportunity as good as Ames for regularly taking 130-plus class bucks.

And, again, if I lived near there, I would probably be a member because it would probably be my best local opportunity.

Those who have something (local) better than Ames, you are very fortunate.

 

[fairchaser]

They have made many changes in rules over the years, but you will never hear them admit they have made a mistake.

Blantantly untrue Bryan1967. They talk about their mistakes at every meeting and continually are re-evaluating the program. The fact that they make changes is evidence they know they aren't perfect. You won't find a more personable, capable and humble individual than Dr. Houston. Their success rate speaks for itself. Show me a program that has their success on 125 inch or larger bucks where hunters have access thoughout the season. It's not for everybody and not just because of the price. There are lots of rules and not everyone kills a buck every year. If you don't like rules and you want to shoot a buck every year, this ain't your club. However some have success every year and that is always an incentive for the rest of us. I have killed enough 115 inch bucks in my life and would be disappointed if they lowered the standards so more bucks were killed. I imagine I am not alone. For those of us who know the real deal, its a real treasure.

I invite you to look at the bucks killed this year on the web site. There are many bucks over 130 including one over 160 and over 140. They are rare as they should be, but some over 140 and 150 are killed annually. Naturally, the genetics and the environment are going to limit the rack sizes.

It is a club for a select number of hunters who want to pay the fees live by the rules and participate in the ongoing mananagement of a wonderful program.

 

[shaggy]

It's pretty obvious that people are either going to continue to be members or they aren't going to even consider it. As far as I can tell Ames also doesn't care where the membership count is and there is no threat to shut it down if it goes below a certain number. I have learned to never say never, I may in fact join one year, but for now I am good. I do enjoy reading about it, if the time comes that it may be have to be an option.

Ames average this year, with the 24 bucks pictured on their website, was right at 131" with only five over 135", one of which was 160" and one that was 144". The 4 1/2 year old deer(and one 5 1/2) averaged 126 1/4". The 3 1/2 deer(and one 2 1/2) averaged 137 4/8". Why are the 3 1/2 year old deer bigger antlered?

I feel as Ames has a lot of 'mature' deer(4 1/2+), but not many of which are 'large' antlered. If this is what you are looking for, GREAT! If you have a spot where you feel you can beat this for a better price, consider yourself lucky! Everyone seems to be comfortable where they are.

I don't understand the argument that Ames can't produce large antlered deer. I personally have killed deer for 4 consecutive years that have been over 120", with one around 130", and one that went 148". These were killed within 5 miles of Ames. IMO $1600 is to much for an average of 131". Maybe I hit a good streak for 4 years and my opinion will change once I am not killing any(as I did this year).

 

[BULL MOOSE]

What is the cell phone coverage like at Ames? Does Verizon work well for smartphone use?

What about wireless trail cameras?

 

[fairchaser]

What is the cell phone coverage like at Ames? Does Verizon work well for smartphone use?

What about wireless trail cameras?

We use the wireless trail cams with a booster antenna and can go anywhere on the plantation with Att. Don't know about Verizon.

 

[Mike Belt]

I've hunted a lot of places on Ames and haven't found but a couple of spots where I don't get ATT reception in the open areas. Hunting in thick pines with thick canopy can be iffy.

 

[Andy S.]

AT&T coverage is adequate for 85%+ of the plantation. I have only found a few spots where I do not have any service on the ground. Once you jack up a tree 25', many times you will regain service, especially later in the season when foliage is reduced.

 

[BULL MOOSE]

The vast majority of the Ames buck kills seem to occur during muzzleloader and gun season. In fact, very few bucks are killed during archery/crossbow season.

What about the 200 does killed? When are most of the does taken?

What is the percentage of hunters who archery hunt? I'm just curious because I no longer bow hunt or have any interest. Archery season just seems like a great way to find more snakes/ticks and pressure the deer.

 

[Mike Belt]

Just my experience but over the years I just haven't seen a lot of daytime buck movement during archery season although a few of our better bucks have been taken then. We have so much ground in thick cover in full foliage it makes it even harder. It's generally not until muzzleloader season before they begin moving and the temperatures will often curb that movement. Rifle season, cooler temps, and the oncoming rut prompt more movement. Our doe kills are spaced out over the season but may pick up towards the end if we see we're not going to meet our quota.

I love sticking a deer but almost wish we didn't have an archery season. I think it probably saves a good number of bucks. The presence of hunters tips the bucks off as to what's coming and as mentioned, we have bookoos of cover. I think it helps to push them into it and keep them there before we can get a rifle in our hands.

I'm pretty sure that over half our hunters archery hunt.

 

[Andy S.]

^^^^^ What he said. I'll add that after opening weekend of archery, you typically won't have 15-20 members hunting any bow hunting weekend (less in evenings compared to mornings, and less on Sundays compared to Saturdays), and even fewer members hunting during the week. With that said, you'll have A LOT of members out there tromping the woods in August and September in search of a place to hunt or to hang their MZer/rifle stand, as well as checking trail cameras, with all activities making the mature bucks ever more weary and pushing them to be even more nocturnal than they already are. Bottom line is the mature buck daytime movement at Ames is HIGHLY influenced by daytime temperatures, the rut, and human pressure, which can probably be said of mature bucks just about anywhere.

 

[Andy S.]

Archery season just seems like a great way to find more snakes/ticks and pressure the deer.

I agree, but that is one of the beauties of having 18k acres to hunt. You can always archery hunt in certain areas and save your preferred firearm spots until Nov/Dec time frame, thus not putting pressure on them for the most part. This has been my approach every year since I first joined and it has worked well for the most part.

 

[fairchaser]

What's been so surprising to me at Ames is that in spite of the troop of constant human activity doing research, farming, cattle ranching, timbering, field trials, hunter's scouting, putting up stands, checking 300 + cameras not to mention 2000+man hours hunting, nearly every shooter buck that is known about gets killed. A few slip through the Ames nets but the dragnet of hunters is extremely fine and few great bucks make it through to survive another season. This proves the power of the rut and how the balanced herd makes a huge difference in hunter success. That being said, the herd balancing just got more difficult with the new buck definition. Just one more excuse to lay off the trigger on does. It's gonna take a united effort by everyone to kill enough does this coming season.