Buck expectations per 1000 acres, per age class

Winchester

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I agree with most everything you posted BGG except this:
Another thing to keep in mind is that a good portion of Oak Ridge is within the high fenced security area. Once you put a fence up, all we know about free-ranging animals flies out the window.
Actually only a very small part (less than 10%) of ORWMA that is open to hunting, is under high fence. Only the Tower shielding area, and maybe a small tract for badged employees only, is high fenced, the rest is free roaming animals.
I do agree however that the restrictions help a great deal, sorta like all the private property across the whole state that is owned/leased and being managed with fairly strict regs.
It would seem that these properties would have a higher # on average as well??? Pretty interesting info at the very least.
 

BigGameGuy

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Good question 8-point.

This is actually a question we can answer but we don't really know the answer to it. (Tell me I shouldn't be a politician! :D )

Many hunters today believe passing bucks is similar to putting money in a savings account at your local bank. And much like a savings account, they have faith that those bucks will be there next year with interest earned...the interest of course being a larger set of antlers. Unfortunately mother nature was not born to be a cheif financial officer because truth be known, her bank stinks. Not only is interest earned highly variable (according to habitat) but you never get back the same amount of money you put into it.

Like I said in my first post, it would be nice to believe four bucks saved one year is equal to four older bucks earned the following year. Unfortunately there's a substantial withdrawl that occurs between each year. Data from numerous studies show that in a free-ranging deer herd it is near impossible to have a significant portion (>30%) of your deer herd in the mature age classes.

I believe Dr. Kroll (Bryan correct me if I'm wrong) conducted a decade long study on his private ranch in Iowa. There was little, if any, harvest of young bucks (less than 4-1/2) in an attempt to "flood" the mature age classes with new recruits. The problem was, they never showed up. His trail camera census' revealed that even with extreme management practices, mature age-classes represented something like only 8% of the buck population.

On that same note, we can look at Tennessee harvest data. It's a slightly different dataset than Dr. Kroll's (standing herd data -vs- harvested herd data) but it yields the same conclusions. In 1998, when the state reduced the buck limit from 11 down to 2, Tennessee "saved" some 18,000 yearlings.

Bucks.jpg


One would believe these 18,000 yearlings (or a good portion of them) would show up later in the harvest as older deer. Unfortunately they didn't. We saw a jump of approximately 3,000 deer in the older age-classes. In other words, out of every six deer that were passed-up, only one ended up getting harvested at a later date. When we look at the two datasets, we can't say they each have equal attrition rates but we can say that it doesn't appear that bucks can be stockpiled. Now for the big question...why is that?

Here's my scoop and my scoop alone.

It is often cited in many QDM publications that historical records show that mature deer (5-1/2+) made up a significant portion of the buck population (~30%). This was determined by examining middens from native American archeological sites. Reading this, many folks are lead to believe that a "natural" deer herd should have a fair number of those age classes represented. Well I call horse hockey.

I am not arguing the point that that's what those records revealed, however, the last time I looked out my window I did not see a teepee on the horizon. What I mean by that is that hundreds of years ago, 5-1/2, 6-1/2, 7-1/2, and even 8-1/2 year old bucks were considered the norm in a natural situation. I also know that hundreds of years ago, the deer didn't have to deal with cars, and roads, and barbed wire, and combines, and dogs, and a hundred other stresses they deal with today. My guess is the life expectancy of a buck is today's modern world is no where near what it was in pre-historic times. And I'm not even talking about hunter mortalilty, just the simple stresses of today's world.

To surmise the point I'm getting at, I believe a 5-1/2 or 6-1/2 year old buck today is equivalent to an 8-1/2 or 9-1/2 year old deer of yesteryear. No matter how hard we try, we are not going to achieve greater than 10% of the buck population in the mature age-classes. It's simply a function of modern times.

Anyhow...my two-cents.
 

8 POINTS OR BETTER

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Its hard for me to buy into the theory of not being able to stockpile bucks. The way I look at it is if you shoot every buck you see on a piece of property then you will not have as many bucks on that piece of property as on a piece of property (habitat being the same) that lets 1.5 years old and some 2.5 years old walk. Therefore the guy that lets is young buck walk as stockpiled some bucks. I will agree that being able to kill them as they get older is a lot harder.
 

BigGameGuy

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I totally agree. The person who passes on the yearlings and 2-1/2 year olds will have more than the person that doesn't. You'll just probably never see the mature age classes in large numbers (high percentage of the buck population).
 

BSK

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8 Points or Better,

What "stockpiling" bucks really means to to end up with a huge number of older to mature bucks if you keep passing up all the bucks when they are young. Now without question passing up young bucks leads to having older bucks and even mature bucks. But what BGG is getting at is there appears to be some sort of "ceiling" for buck age structure in regularly hunted deer herds. From a growing number of research projects, this ceiling appears to be around 8% (give or take a few percentage points) of a buck population being mature. Now again, we're talking PERCENTAGES. That doesn't account for ACTUAL NUMBERS. If you vastly improve the habitat of an area you can drastically increase the carrying capacity. By increasing the carrying capacity you can have many more deer. By having many more bucks you have more mature bucks, even though the percent of the buck population that is mature is still the same. For example, 1 mature buck out of 10 total bucks is 10% mature, but so is 3 mature bucks out of 30 total bucks, or 5 mature bucks out of 50 total bucks. By increasing the buck population you CAN HAVE more mature bucks, but the back age structure (which is a percentage number) stays the same.
 

BSK

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BGG said:
It is often cited in many QDM publications that historical records show that mature deer (5-1/2+) made up a significant portion of the buck population (~30%). This was determined by examining middens from native American archeological sites. Reading this, many folks are lead to believe that a "natural" deer herd should have a fair number of those age classes represented. Well I call horse hockey.

I am not arguing the point that that's what those records revealed, however, the last time I looked out my window I did not see a teepee on the horizon. What I mean by that is that hundreds of years ago, 5-1/2, 6-1/2, 7-1/2, and even 8-1/2 year old bucks were considered the norm in a natural situation. I also know that hundreds of years ago, the deer didn't have to deal with cars, and roads, and barbed wire, and combines, and dogs, and a hundred other stresses they deal with today. My guess is the life expectancy of a buck is today's modern world is no where near what it was in pre-historic times. And I'm not even talking about hunter mortalilty, just the simple stresses of today's world.

Actually, I couldn't agree more. We have two major data sets for what a "natural deer age structure" looks like. One is the Indian midden data. The other is the King Ranch in TX. Both show an age structure of around 30% mature bucks. But here's the kicker. Both of these situations are looking at virtually UNHUNTED DEER HERDS.

Most hunters don't realize it, but the King Ranch is so large that they only average killing (from the last data I have) 1 buck for every 1,200 acres per year. That harvest density is so low that it can be considered an unhunted population.

To fully understand the Indian midden data you have to look deeply at the actual archeological findings. From all available information, it appears that until domesticated agriculture swept through North America about 1,000 years ago, Early Americans were basically nomadic clan/tribe hunters. They would occupy and hunt an area for 5-10 years and then abondon it. This hunting site would stay abondoned for decades before another group would move in and repeat the process. And although this information really pisses off Native American activists, the data is very strong that these early hunters were highly efficient at nearly wiping out the local deer population of the local area within a handful of years. AND THAT IS WHY THEY WOULD ABONDON THE SITE. Since this hunting ground would then stay abondoned for a decade to several decades, the next group to move in and set up camp would be hunting an unhunted deer herd that had been living in the area unhunted for decades. So the harvested age structure is what they would immediately kill from this previously unhunted population.
 

Tree Tramp

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We can't have mature bucks here. They will never make up a significant portion of the herd. We don't have good soil. Here's a graph. The three buck limit is awesome. LOL
 

Football Hunter

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Wilson Co/Perry Co
Tree Tramp said:
We can't have mature bucks here. They will never make up a significant portion of the herd. We don't have good soil. Here's a graph. The three buck limit is awesome. LOL
We can have some mature bucks,i agree with point 2,I have some good dirt on my place,some not so good,dont like graphs,I would go for a 2 buck limit,LOL
 

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