Baiting question

[Tenntrapper]

Ok. Serious question. Not trying to be a smartazz, I truly don't know the answer.

I'm not asking because of something I've seen, just something (or parts of it) I've read on here.

100 acre corn field. Farmer harvests the corn and opens it to dove hunt. TWRA comes along and decides there is more corn on the ground than "normal spillage". Everyone hunting that field gets fined for hunting over bait.

100 acre sunflower field. Sunflowers get sprayed to get them ready by dove opener.
Field gets bush hogged...no attempt to harvest.
Opens field to dove hunt (probably paid). TWRA comes along...no problem.

What's the difference? Aside from one being a possible accident, and the other being intentional baiting.

I don't get it.
Can someone explain?

 

[MickThompson]

Do you know of someone actually being cited for your first scenario?

Modern ag doesn't miss a kernel for doves in reality

 

[Tenntrapper]

Do you know of someone actually being cited for your first scenario?

Modern ag doesn't miss a kernel for doves in reality

Not lately...but I have seen it. And I'm pretty sure it's spelled out in the regs book...or used to be. (The part about normal spillage).

 

[MickThompson]

Not lately...but I have seen it. And I'm pretty sure it's spelled out in the regs book...or used to be. (The part about normal spillage).

Dates and rates are what get people in trouble. Spreading corn or sunflowers isn't a normal practice and those crops aren't normally planted on top of the ground either. The details really matter with migratory birds.

 

[Tenntrapper]

Do you know of someone actually being cited for your first scenario?

Modern ag doesn't miss a kernel for doves in reality

For the sake of argument...what if the farmer bush hogged the corn field? Would there be a difference? I feel like there would be.
I guess my question is...when it comes to baiting, is there a difference between corn and sunflower seeds?
Is there some gray area in the regs that allows someone to say...I just bush hogged my field..must have been some sunflowers in there?
Or something like that?
Because, lets be honest here...we know why people plant, kill, bush hog sunflowers just before Labor Day...every year. It ain't no accident, coincidence, etc. It's intentional baiting.

As for your question. It was about 20-ish years ago in Green county. Everyone was fined.
Another field I was on...TWRA came in, walked around, and shut down the field. Said too much corn on ground. Neither of these field were grown for dove...just someone farming.. growing corn.

 

[Tenntrapper]

Dates and rates are what get people in trouble. Spreading corn or sunflowers isn't a normal practice and those crops aren't normally planted on top of the ground either. The details really matter with migratory birds.

True, I understand that. But if you've been on this site more than 5 minutes, you know sunflowers are grown for that specific purpose. And a bush hog doesn't plant those kernels either...and I doubt you plant them at end of August.

 

[MickThompson]

For the sake of argument...what if the farmer bush hogged the corn field? Would there be a difference? I feel like there would be.
I guess my question is...when it comes to baiting, is there a difference between corn and sunflower seeds?
Is there some gray area in the regs that allows someone to say...I just bush hogged my field..must have been some sunflowers in there?
Or something like that?
Because, lets be honest here...we know why people plant, kill, bush hog sunflowers just before Labor Day...every year. It ain't no accident, coincidence, etc. It's intentional baiting.

As for your question. It was about 20-ish years ago in Green county. Everyone was fined.
Another field I was on...TWRA came in, walked around, and shut down the field. Said too much corn on ground. Neither of these field were grown for dove...just someone farming.. growing corn.

No difference between corn and sunflowers or any other crop. You can grow it and mow it but once it's harvested you can't put it back on the field.

You can grow it but can't manipulate it and waterfowl hunt though.

 

[MickThompson]

Hard to say what they saw 20 years ago- piles are a red flag though.

Take this for what it's worth- I plant a couple small fields and try to do it right. Not a possum sheriff and didn't stay at a holiday inn last night either.

 

[Tenntrapper]

No difference between corn and sunflowers or any other crop. You can grow it and mow it but once it's harvested you can't put it back on the field.

You can grow it but can't manipulate it and waterfowl hunt though.

Ok, thanks. That's really what I wanted to know..if a difference.
Not that I intended to do either, but...if said cornfield was "mowed", it would be legal to hunt?

And you specifically said "waterfowl" in the last sentence. Is there a difference in rules for dove and waterfowl...when it comes to such things?

 

[scn]

I would highly suspect something else was going on instead of what you remember.

For example, there have been cases over the years where people do their harvest, and then right before the hunt, come back in and spread corn. Unfortunately, the dummies spread another variety of corn than what was grown on the field.

Or, they take their harvested corn off the field, and then bring it back and spread it. That is illegal. The same has been done with corn sileage where the corn is cut and then the sileage is brought back onto the field and blown around.

20 years ago it was a pretty common practice for officers to check fields prior to Sept. 1. If they go out a couple of days before and document what is on the field, and return on opening day for the big hunt and there is noticeably more, it would be a pretty easy case to prosecute.

But, the chances of it being an issue on Monday are about nil.

 

[MickThompson]

Ok, thanks. That's really what I wanted to know..if a difference.
Not that I intended to do either, but...if said cornfield was "mowed", it would be legal to hunt?

And you specifically said "waterfowl" in the last sentence. Is there a difference in rules for dove and waterfowl...when it comes to such things?

Yes, you can mow a crop and dove hunt but can't do that and hunt ducks or geese

 

[MickThompson]

I would highly suspect something else was going on instead of what you remember.

For example, there have been cases over the years where people do their harvest, and then right before the hunt, come back in an spread corn. Unfortunately, the dummies spread another variety of corn than what was grown on the field.

Or, they take their harvested corn off the field, and then bring it back and spread it. That is illegal. The same has been done with corn sileage where the corn is cut and then the sileage is brought back onto the field and blown around.

20 years ago it was a pretty common practice for officers to check fields prior to Sept. 1. If they go out a couple of days before and document what is on the field, and return on opening day for the big hunt and there is noticeably more, it would be a pretty easy case to prosecute.

But, the chances of it being an issue on Monday are about nil.

Rock salt perhaps as well

 

[scn]

Ok, thanks. That's really what I wanted to know..if a difference.
Not that I intended to do either, but...if said cornfield was "mowed", it would be legal to hunt?

And you specifically said "waterfowl" in the last sentence. Is there a difference in rules for dove and waterfowl...when it comes to such things?

Yes, there are major differences in what is legal for doves and what is legal for waterfowl.

Waterfowl requires a normal agricultural practice. Only in VERY rare instances does bushhogging down a crop get into the normal range. That is one of the reasons (non-toxic shot being the other) that people have received citations hunting geese in the early season over what was a legal dove field.

 

[Tenntrapper]

I would highly suspect something else was going on instead of what you remember.

For example, there have been cases over the years where people do their harvest, and then right before the hunt, come back in an spread corn. Unfortunately, the dummies spread another variety of corn than what was grown on the field.

Or, they take their harvested corn off the field, and then bring it back and spread it. That is illegal. The same has been done with corn sileage where the corn is cut and then the sileage is brought back onto the field and blown around.

20 years ago it was a pretty common practice for officers to check fields prior to Sept. 1. If they go out a couple of days before and document what is on the field, and return on opening day for the big hunt and there is noticeably more, it would be a pretty easy case to prosecute.

But, the chances of it being an issue on Monday are about nil.

Entirely possible I guess on the field everyone got cited on. I wasn't hunting it, but lived just down the road. It was the talk of the town for a while.
The other field...that got shut down. It was a TWRA (I guess) field that was advertised. I don't believe anyone was cited, but we did get run off.

 

[MickThompson]

Entirely possible I guess on the field everyone got cited on. I wasn't hunting it, but lived just down the road. It was the talk of the town for a while.
The other field...that got shut down. It was a TWRA (I guess) field that was advertised. I don't believe anyone was cited, but we did get run off.

Been a few times when antis snuck into public fields and baited them to shut them down too

 

[SSlater]

As I've said before. Everyone is expected to obey the law with the exception of law enforcement and law makers.

 

[BaPa]

Ok. Serious question. Not trying to be a smartazz, I truly don't know the answer.

I'm not asking because of something I've seen, just something (or parts of it) I've read on here.

100 acre corn field. Farmer harvests the corn and opens it to dove hunt. TWRA comes along and decides there is more corn on the ground than "normal spillage". Everyone hunting that field gets fined for hunting over bait.

100 acre sunflower field. Sunflowers get sprayed to get them ready by dove opener.
Field gets bush hogged...no attempt to harvest.
Opens field to dove hunt (probably paid). TWRA comes along...no problem.

What's the difference? Aside from one being a possible accident, and the other being intentional baiting.

I don't get it.
Can someone explain?

What gets me is TWRA pays, a farmer I know, to bush hog down some of his corn and TWRA advertises it for hunters to come there to dove hunt! Bush hog it down, not sloppily harvest it! Then TWRA goes and cites hunters on a sloppily harvested corn field elsewhere?

 

[Tenntrapper]

I have to admit...I haven't been in a "dove field" in years. I don't grow corn (even in my personal garden) or sunflowers, millet, or anything else that would really attract dove. MT said modern ag doesn't miss a kernel these days...fine. But I clearly remember hunting havested fields that had whole ears of corn in them. Used to rock (arrowhead) hunt fields like that all the time('80s). And what if, on that 100 acre corn field, I decide I only want to harvest 50 acres of it and bush hog the other 50. Is it baited? Where is the line drawn? Seems to me the line should be at intent. These people growing sunflowers,etc and intentionally "mowing" them right at dove season are the ones baiting. Stevie Wonder can see that!!
Now personally...I don't give a crap if you bait these fields or not...I love a good dove field.
Just seems there needs to be a better way of judging what's baited...and what's not. Besides who's palm got greased...if you know what I mean.

 

[scn]

What gets me is TWRA pays, a farmer I know, to bush hog down some of his corn and TWRA advertises it for hunters to come there to dove hunt! Bush hog it down, not sloppily harvest it! Then TWRA goes and cites hunters on a sloppily harvested corn field elsewhere?

Bushogging a field for doves is legal. A lot of the shenanigans hunters use to bait fields are not.

 

[scn]

I have to admit...I haven't been in a "dove field" in years. I don't grow corn (even in my personal garden) or sunflowers, millet, or anything else that would really attract dove. MT said modern ag doesn't miss a kernel these days...fine. But I clearly remember hunting havested fields that had whole ears of corn in them. Used to rock (arrowhead) hunt fields like that all the time('80s). And what if, on that 100 acre corn field, I decide I only want to harvest 50 acres of it and bush hog the other 50. Is it baited? Where is the line drawn? Seems to me the line should be at intent. These people growing sunflowers,etc and intentionally "mowing" them right at dove season are the ones baiting. Stevie Wonder can see that!!
Now personally...I don't give a crap if you bait these fields or not...I love a good dove field.
Just seems there needs to be a better way of judging what's baited...and what's not. Besides who's palm got greased...if you know what I mean.

If you grow it on the field, you can pretty much manipulate it any way you want to for doves. You can bush hog, knock down, burn, etc. Under the federal regulations, growing and then manipulating for doves has never been baiting.

Where people get in trouble is by getting cute and trying to "sweeten up" what was probably already a good field by adding other stuff to it.

The regulations are actually pretty clear, and if there is something you don't understand, there are a bunch of TWRA phone numbers to call to get some clarification. Most folks don't bother because they want to claim ignorance if it goes bad.

And, like any discussion on "baiting" on here, a lot of it usually gets down to the class warfare level. Because someone is "rich" and has some land to plant a field/food plot and the equipment and money to do so, since I am poor, I ought to be able to pour something out of a bag for my hunting pleasure.

Since the baiting regulations for doves (and waterfowl) come from the US Fish and Wildlife Service, lobbying for changes would need to be on the federal level.

 

[Tenntrapper]

If you grow it on the field, you can pretty much manipulate it any way you want to for doves. You can bush hog, knock down, burn, etc. Under the federal regulations, growing and then manipulating for doves has never been baiting.

Where people get in trouble is by getting cute and trying to "sweeten up" what was probably already a good field by adding other stuff to it.

The regulations are actually pretty clear, and if there is something you don't understand, there are a bunch of TWRA phone numbers to call to get some clarification. Most folks don't bother because they want to claim ignorance if it goes bad.

And, like any discussion on "baiting" on here, a lot of it usually gets down to the class warfare level. Because someone is "rich" and has some land to plant a field/food plot and the equipment and money to do so, since I am poor, I ought to be able to pour something out of a bag for my hunting pleasure.

Since the baiting regulations for doves (and waterfowl) come from the US Fish and Wildlife Service, lobbying for changes would need to be on the federal level.

As I said...we don't grow anything that could be construed as bait...unless dove have started eating cows and hay...

What prompted me to ask the question was... wether or not it's still there, I remember something in the regs about normal spillage.
Where was that line drawn...one kernel too many per acre or what?

As for class warfare...perhaps, but not convinced yet. Unless you're talking about someone "rich" that also has a buddy within the TWRA.
My mind is more simple than that...it's either bait, or it's not. Wether or not it was loaded into a wagon then dumped back out is irrelevant... assuming nothing is added to it. I know they see it differently, and that's why I don't even chance it. They would look at me doing what they do as wrong. Like a form of nepotism...it's ok for some (if you know the right people) and not for others.
I didn't mean for this thread to go this direction... honestly, I was just curious about the normal spillage thing. Who decides what is normal? Maybe my equipment is old, worn out, and it spills some....who is to say?

I completely understand the "adding" part, so with that aside...where is the line drawn?

 

[scn]

As I said...we don't grow anything that could be construed as bait...unless dove have started eating cows and hay...

What prompted me to ask the question was... wether or not it's still there, I remember something in the regs about normal spillage.
Where was that line drawn...one kernel too many per acre or what?

As for class warfare...perhaps, but not convinced yet. Unless you're talking about someone "rich" that also has a buddy within the TWRA.
My mind is more simple than that...it's either bait, or it's not. Wether or not it was loaded into a wagon then dumped back out is irrelevant... assuming nothing is added to it. I know they see it differently, and that's why I don't even chance it. They would look at me doing what they do as wrong. Like a form of nepotism...it's ok for some (if you know the right people) and not for others.
I didn't mean for this thread to go this direction... honestly, I was just curious about the normal spillage thing. Who decides what is normal? Maybe my equipment is old, worn out, and it spills some....who is to say?

I completely understand the "adding" part, so with that aside...where is the line drawn?

There was NEVER anything about normal spillage in the baiting regulations for doves. Normal agricultural practices which would look at what would be a normal spillage would come into play for waterfowl, but, not doves. A lot of folks can't get their head around that there is a difference in the regs for doves and waterfowl.

If it is grown on the field, it can be manipulated in any fashion and remain on the field for doves.
It can't be taken off the field and then brought back onto the field.

The nepotism stuff is in the form of urban legends. After being around it for almost four decades, it is pretty much bs. Yes, there were baiting cases made every year. But, it wasn't instances of letting one person do something that they would write a ticket on for someone else. Pure bs.

 

[MickThompson]

I have to admit...I haven't been in a "dove field" in years. I don't grow corn (even in my personal garden) or sunflowers, millet, or anything else that would really attract dove. MT said modern ag doesn't miss a kernel these days...fine. But I clearly remember hunting havested fields that had whole ears of corn in them. Used to rock (arrowhead) hunt fields like that all the time('80s). And what if, on that 100 acre corn field, I decide I only want to harvest 50 acres of it and bush hog the other 50. Is it baited? Where is the line drawn? Seems to me the line should be at intent. These people growing sunflowers,etc and intentionally "mowing" them right at dove season are the ones baiting. Stevie Wonder can see that!!
Now personally...I don't give a crap if you bait these fields or not...I love a good dove field.
Just seems there needs to be a better way of judging what's baited...and what's not. Besides who's palm got greased...if you know what I mean.

I've seen fields that had bad bindweed/morning glory infestations with more corn on the ground than made it into the picker too. That field would even be legal to hunt waterfowl on because harvest was attempted but failed miserably. It's just not the norm.

150 bushel corn is about 800 pounds of grain grown per acre. With modern silage choppers or combines, they probably lose less than 50 pounds per acre with a competent operator.

The feds make the rules. We just have to play by them as best we can.

 

[Tenntrapper]

There was NEVER anything about normal spillage in the baiting regulations for doves. Normal agricultural practices which would look at what would be a normal spillage would come into play for waterfowl, but, not doves. A lot of folks can't get their head around that there is a difference in the regs for doves and waterfowl.

If it is grown on the field, it can be manipulated in any fashion and remain on the field for doves.
It can't be taken off the field and then brought back onto the field.

The nepotism stuff is in the form of urban legends. After being around it for almost four decades, it is pretty much bs. Yes, there were baiting cases made every year. But, it wasn't instances of letting one person do something that they would write a ticket on for someone else. Pure bs.

I guess my confusion is, like you said, the difference in dove and waterfowl.
I don't waterfowl hunt, so that doesn't concern me really, so never paid attention. Guess I just considered them all "migratory birds".
As for the "normal spillage"...I have definitely read that somewhere...but it wasn't recently. And it had to do with how much grain could be left in the field before considered baiting. Seems it was at the warden's discretion...what was too much.
As for nepotism being BS.... bwahahaha. Guess that depends on the angle you're looking at it from.

 

[scn]

I guess my confusion is, like you said, the difference in dove and waterfowl.
I don't waterfowl hunt, so that doesn't concern me really, so never paid attention. Guess I just considered them all "migratory birds".
As for the "normal spillage"...I have definitely read that somewhere...but it wasn't recently. And it had to do with how much grain could be left in the field before considered baiting. Seems it was at the warden's discretion...what was too much.
As for nepotism being BS.... bwahahaha. Guess that depends on the angle you're looking at it from.

Believe what you want. I am done with you.

 

[Tenntrapper]

Believe what you want. I am done with you.

I was just about to ask something else...

I was just reading the US wildlife regs (waterfowl). A lot of what I'm reading is what I was remembering. So, is it safe to say... even though dove are migratory birds, as it pertains to baiting, they are the same as deer?
As long as you don't "put" it there... anything goes?
Because the US regs say...can only be manipulated after normal harvest. Can hunt while standing, but mowing would be baiting...unless it had been harvested already.

Your comment above is just asinine. I was asking a legit question. If I'm correct in my dove/deer analogy...why not just say that?

Hey...when it comes to baiting...deer and dove are considered the same. As long as you don't pour it out of a bag, etc...you're fine.

 

[backyardtndeer]

Modern ag doesn't miss a kernel for doves in reality

They leave some behind here, but I think a big part of that is when loaded into trucks. The trucks around here definitely spill corn, in the fields and on the roads.

 

[PillsburyDoughboy]

I would highly suspect something else was going on instead of what you remember.

For example, there have been cases over the years where people do their harvest, and then right before the hunt, come back in and spread corn. Unfortunately, the dummies spread another variety of corn than what was grown on the field.

Or, they take their harvested corn off the field, and then bring it back and spread it. That is illegal. The same has been done with corn sileage where the corn is cut and then the sileage is brought back onto the field and blown around.

20 years ago it was a pretty common practice for officers to check fields prior to Sept. 1. If they go out a couple of days before and document what is on the field, and return on opening day for the big hunt and there is noticeably more, it would be a pretty easy case to prosecute.

But, the chances of it being an issue on Monday are about nil.

Pretty sure this is what happens in most cases. When you open yourself up to public hunting you are opening yourself up to public hunting. Ive been there done that and got a diploma. You can plead ignorance all you want but at the end of the day its your responsibility as a hunter to know the law and know where you are hunting and to know if its baited or not. Its one reason I will never step foot on a property that I do not know the management practices and or the people that are running it.

 

[TAFKAP]

"Normal spillage" of corn in my non-LEO, non-farming mind would be small piles scattered throughout, representing where a combine transfer chute may have trickled out as the trailer filled or pulled away during September harvest. Normal spillage of corn or beans would happen in September, coinciding with dove and then deer season.

Since you figure most wheat is cut in June, the presence of ANY wheat piles in a September dove field would be out of place.

 

[Hunter0678]

Since you figure most wheat is cut in June, the presence of ANY wheat piles in a September dove field would be out of place.

Not true, if a farmer harvests his corn and then decides to overseed it for the winter with wheat the week before sept 1st the ground could be covered in wheat up to the allowable seeding rate.