3 vs 4 year olds and older

[duckriver]

We generally try to go for bucks 3 years old and older. Not that we are trophy hunters but we like watching them grow and keep tabs on them all year. I'm always tickled to get a 3 year old, and being a numbers guy our 3 year olds average 123" over the last few years.

That being said, we have let several 3 year olds walk the last few years that we see and feel confident that stay in the same area most the year. In hopes to get a older buck and one that possibly scores higher than one we have killed before. But we have yet to kill one that we can confirm was a 4 year old plus. We dont see them any more while hunting and very rarely on trail cams. That leads me to my question.

What do yall do to change the way you hunt to kill the older deer? And have any of you noticed the same thing?

 

[redblood]

3.5 is your best window of harvest. 4.5 yr olds can be pretty hard to catch up to and most go nocturnal early in the season In my area

 

[fairchaser]

We generally try to go for bucks 3 years old and older. Not that we are trophy hunters but we like watching them grow and keep tabs on them all year. I'm always tickled to get a 3 year old, and being a numbers guy our 3 year olds average 123" over the last few years.

That being said, we have let several 3 year olds walk the last few years that we see and feel confident that stay in the same area most the year. In hopes to get a older buck and one that possibly scores higher than one we have killed before. But we have yet to kill one that we can confirm was a 4 year old plus. We dont see them any more while hunting and very rarely on trail cams. That leads me to my question.

What do yall do to change the way you hunt to kill the older deer? And have any of you noticed the same thing?

There is a big jump in antler growth from 3 to 4 years and seemingly a big jump in human avoidance from 3 to 4. By 4 a buck has become a chess master and they know how to avoid danger. Other than the rut, they don't follow the patterns of younger deer. They are really a different animal. Traditional hunting and scouting techniques will not work on mature bucks. When you pull into the property you may already be defeated. You have to go ninja on them which means you have to kill them without them making a mistake. For example setting up with the wind at your advantage and not the buck is a mistake. The mature buck will not commit suicide by walking in tail wind to your position. The wind has to be a little wrong for him and a little wrong for you. You have to predict how and where he will travel and why. Much more can be said and there are countless books written on the subject. Books are much better resource than magazine articles as they can go into greater detail. Good luck because this is a lifelong pursuit you will never figure out.

 

[Boll Weevil]

This might sound totally nuts but I'll throw it out there anyways...hunt hard...less.

Folks know this already I'm certain, but these dudes are a totally different critter. Smart, sensitive, old, unforgiving, intolerant, hermits. I've watched fulllllll grown bucks (all I could see was tines bobbing in cutover or baby pines at 230pm) get up, pee, nibble, and lay back down within 20 feet of where they started. They just don't run much risk or like repeated, threatening intrusion and have a terribly narrow window to be killed.

Pressure an old deer like that and it's over before it even started. Wait till he's a tiny bit more vulnerable and prone to make a mistake and maybe it comes together. Maybe. :/

 

[duckriver]

There is a big jump in antler growth from 3 to 4 years and seemingly a big jump in human avoidance from 3 to 4. By 4 a buck has become a chess master and they know how to avoid danger. Other than the rut, they don't follow the patterns of younger deer. They are really a different animal. Traditional hunting and scouting techniques will not work on mature bucks. When you pull into the property you may already be defeated. You have to go ninja on them which means you have to kill them without them making a mistake. For example setting up with the wind at your advantage and not the buck is a mistake. The mature buck will not commit suicide by walking in tail wind to your position. The wind has to be a little wrong for him and a little wrong for you. You have to predict how and where he will travel and why. Much more can be said and there are countless books written on the subject. Books are much better resource than magazine articles as they can go into greater detail. Good luck because this is a lifelong pursuit you will never figure out. [/quote]

What books do you recommend?

 

[duckriver]

Pressure an old deer like that and it's over before it even started. Wait till he's a tiny bit more vulnerable and prone to make a mistake and maybe it comes together. Maybe. :/[/quote]

Are you talking during the rut?

thanks for the reply

 

[redblood]

definitely the rut and once again at the very end of season when they are trying to regain there weight. the key is low pressure, as mentioned above. caught this ol boy last friday at last light in secluded food plot. i will post pics of the jaw bone once i process him. he is frozen harder than a brick, hanging in the back yard

 

[duckriver]

that dudes got a chest like a whiskey barrel lol

 

[deerhunter10]

a 4.5 year old and older deer are completely different deer compared to all the others. got to think completely different and be very aware of details especially for the 5.5 year old and older.

 

[BSK]

There is a big jump in antler growth from 3 to 4 years and seemingly a big jump in human avoidance from 3 to 4. By 4 a buck has become a chess master and they know how to avoid danger. Other than the rut, they don't follow the patterns of younger deer. They are really a different animal. Traditional hunting and scouting techniques will not work on mature bucks.

I agree strongly with all of this except the "big jump in antler growth" part. On average, the increase in antler growth from 3 to 4 is around 15%. But the increase in wariness, human avoidance, and difficulty of seeing/killing is HUGE. 4 1/2 year-old bucks are so different in their behavior from younger deer that they can almost be considered a different species.

One of the biggest changes in behavior from 3 to 4 is the shift to almost exclusively nocturnal behavior. Most mature bucks move very little during daylight, even outside of hunting season. I get very few daylight trail-camera pictures of mature bucks outside of two windows: mid to late September, and during the cruising phase of the rut (the week to 10 days prior to the onset of peak breeding).

 

[Winchester]

BSK beat me to it, not really a big jump in antler size for most 3.5 to 4.5 yr olds. Much bigger antler jumps occur from 1.5 to 2.5 and 2.5 to 3.5.
The big jump is in their ability to avoid human contact. They are still fairly killable for some people at 3.5 but have gotten much much harder by the time they are 4.5+
You have to hunt specifically for old bucks to kill them with any consistency, throwing out normal hunting tactics you use to kill just deer.

 

[duckriver]

So would y'all suggest concentrating in hunting just outside of bedding areas and not worry so much about hunting where the does are?

 

[BSK]

You have to hunt specifically for old bucks to kill them with any consistency, throwing out normal hunting tactics you use to kill just deer.

I couldn't agree more with the above comment.

Now every year, inexperienced or unskilled hunters luck into mature bucks. And I'm sure every one of us knows hunters who are lucky enough to hunt a particular property where mature bucks abound, and extremely low hunting pressure makes them easier to kill. However, in MOST situations, EXTREME attention to detail, and a hunting strategy completely devoted to pursing mature bucks is required to consistently kill 4 1/2+ bucks in TN.

 

[Boll Weevil]

Are you talking during the rut?

What redblood said; the rut and post-rut when it's cold and they're rundown / hungry.

The only other time one might argue is the first few days of bowseason starts and they're still on those predictable summer patterns. That being said, I personally never go after an old deer at that time...far too risky from a human stink perspective (heat, sweat, latent scent on green/leafy vegetation etc). It's just not worth blowing it that early in the season.

 

[BSK]

So would y'all suggest concentrating in hunting just outside of bedding areas and not worry so much about hunting where the does are?

duckriver,

I have no doubt a bunch of hunters are going to disagree with me, but outside of a few situations, I've never been a believer or proponent of "hunting where the does are" for killing older bucks, and especially mature bucks. Now this might be more true in agricultural regions (or anywhere with more open habitat), but in the primarily wooded habitat so common to large sections of TN, "where the does are" is usually small openings, food plots, or agricultural fields bordering large blocks of timber. I sure have hunted those areas a bunch, and to date, have very, very rarely seen a mature buck moving through those areas in daylight.

Ask those who consistently kill mature bucks what the best techniques are, and you'll probably get as many answers as hunters you ask. Each successful hunter has figured out one, two or three pieces of the huge puzzle involved in outwitting mature bucks.

I no longer consider myself a consistent mature buck killer (because I grew tired of the extreme attention to detail required), but at one time I was. During that time, my "pieces of the puzzle" were:

1) Hunting at the peak time for daylight mature buck movement-- the cruising phase of the local rut (the week to 10 days prior to the onset of peak breeding).

2) I hunted where no one else had been hunting, or at least areas that had not been hunted in several years. And I chose those locations regardless of buck sign.

3) I looked for terrain and/or habitat features that would funnel deer movement.

4) I looked for areas that fit the above requirements that were also within at least 100 yards of thick sanctuary cover, and I preferred to be able to see/shoot the edge of the thick cover.

 

[mathews338]

not that I have killed a ton of 4.5+ but the ones I have killed I did it by staying out of that area totally until the perfect time which for me has been early November. the cruising phase of the rut has always been best for me. even if I know I have a good chance at seeing him during bow I stay out until I have a better weapon in my hands. only exception is opening weekend of KY. when I do go after them in November I stay all day. the 2 best times are the first few minutes of daylight and right in the middle of the day.

 

[Winchester]

So would y'all suggest concentrating in hunting just outside of bedding areas and not worry so much about hunting where the does are?

I personally pay little attn. to where the does are. Hunting the habitat we have here in Mid/East TN I have learned that hunting terrain features pays me much bigger dividends than doe areas do.
I like to hunt at high % times, such as November when mature bucks will spend the most amount of daylight time on their feet vs any other time of yr. The only thing remotely predictable about a mature buck is how he will use the terrain where he lives to travel. This is the weak link that you can sometimes exploit, as they will use certain features when traveling in search of does during the rut. These features aren't always the most obvious either.
Another mistake many hunters make when hunting these deer is to put the wind in their face and expect these old deer to be traveling with the wind at their backs, simply doesn't happen very often. Many times you have to deal with a marginal wind and put yourself in position to intercept before they cut your wind.
Way too much to explain and im not good at explaining things in type anyway. Like stated above many people have their own chinks figured out and use them differently to be successful. Nothing will beat sheer time spent in the woods to figure these things out, and while doing so you MUST pass on even the marginal bucks to ever gain any experience with the truly older/bigger bucks we re talking about!

 

[fairchaser]

There is a big jump in antler growth from 3 to 4 years and seemingly a big jump in human avoidance from 3 to 4. By 4 a buck has become a chess master and they know how to avoid danger. Other than the rut, they don't follow the patterns of younger deer. They are really a different animal. Traditional hunting and scouting techniques will not work on mature bucks.

I agree strongly with all of this except the "big jump in antler growth" part. On average, the increase in antler growth from 3 to 4 is around 15%. But the increase in wariness, human avoidance, and difficulty of seeing/killing is HUGE. 4 1/2 year-old bucks are so different in their behavior from younger deer that they can almost be considered a different species.

One of the biggest changes in behavior from 3 to 4 is the shift to almost exclusively nocturnal behavior. Most mature bucks move very little during daylight, even outside of hunting season. I get very few daylight trail-camera pictures of mature bucks outside of two windows: mid to late September, and during the cruising phase of the rut (the week to 10 days prior to the onset of peak breeding).

I agree, I guess I was thinking about inches of antler growth from 3-4 rather than percentage. At this age, I always understood their bodies were fully developed so their nutrition could go toward antler growth. But, I do agree with your percentages. What percentage of their best rack, does a 4.5 year old buck have in Tenn? Also, what are they at various ages?

 

[Mike Belt]

One would think that concentrations of does are drawing magnets to cruising bucks and it can happen. I glass most of the does I see leading up to the rut and continue to do so continuously throughout the season concentrating on their hock glands and their actions. It doesn't necessarily mean a doe's not entering estrous because her hocks haven't turned from white to a buff or brown color but in most cases that will signify she is in or has entered estrus. If I'm consistently seeing a group of does in certain area I try to keep up with how many of them have already entered estrus and probably already been bred...concentrating on how many haven't. Early into the rut and throughout most of the rut this information often determines where I hunt but more often than not is more critical during the late breeding season when the older, unbred does recycle or the early born young are entering estrus for the first time. At that time there are fewer does to be bred and the bucks involved with breeding have to expand their search areas or travels.

 

[fairchaser]

There is a big jump in antler growth from 3 to 4 years and seemingly a big jump in human avoidance from 3 to 4. By 4 a buck has become a chess master and they know how to avoid danger. Other than the rut, they don't follow the patterns of younger deer. They are really a different animal. Traditional hunting and scouting techniques will not work on mature bucks. When you pull into the property you may already be defeated. You have to go ninja on them which means you have to kill them without them making a mistake. For example setting up with the wind at your advantage and not the buck is a mistake. The mature buck will not commit suicide by walking in tail wind to your position. The wind has to be a little wrong for him and a little wrong for you. You have to predict how and where he will travel and why. Much more can be said and there are countless books written on the subject. Books are much better resource than magazine articles as they can go into greater detail. Good luck because this is a lifelong pursuit you will never figure out.

What books do you recommend? [/quote]

Bill Winke writes some good books. I recently bought a book called whitetail icons. These are folks that most hunters have never heard of as opposed to the TV pros. Magazines are selling products mostly so you have to be careful of what they are telling you. I am sure others on here can recommend some good books too.