TN Deer Hunting - Freedom & Opportunity for All

[TheLBLman]

Disclaimer: The below is entirely my personal beliefs and opinions, much from the perspective of having been an avid TN deer hunter now for nearly 50 years. I currently bowhunt, muzzleloader hunt, and gun hunt, a lot, every year. And, I favor giving more hunters more freedom and more opportunity so that as many as possible can come to enjoy the true blessings we have with our TN deer hunting opportunities.

Along with that, in a "reasonable" balance, I favor providing across-the-board improvements not just to the hunting opportunities, but to the health of the deer, the state of the habitat (which effects much more than just deer), as well as accepting the responsibility of us hunters providing proactive solutions to the problems of too many deer. Am also stating this with an understanding that the majority of Tennessee's citizenry are not deer hunters, and that their opinions of what constitutes "too many deer" can be very different than those of us avid deer hunters. If we fail to find common ground among ourselves and this majority of Tennesseans, we will fail in sustaining the future of hunting.

Meanwhile, there is much truth in "United we stand; divided we fall". I hope more of us can come to see each other more as hunters, rather than deer hunters; more as deer hunters, rather than bow, or gun hunters, or Unit L hunters, or Unit B hunters. Actually, my hope is we all become better stewards of our common interests.

We all have opinions, and sometimes it's not so much a case of one being right and another wrong, but more a case of perspectives and circumstances. There is much to be gained by listening to different perspectives, and working together towards the best balance of solutions. I believe most of our problems are caused by a lack of effective communications and/or a lack of understanding, while personal greed and attacks on those with different perspectives often stifle what could have been effective communications and understanding. Sometimes, all of us are quick to attack the messenger of any different idea that's not in lock-step with ours. For that, I am guilty as charged, and hope that any whom I have maligned will forgive my wrongdoing.

 

[TheLBLman]

I don't want to make this thread about "me", but I do want anyone reading to have some idea of where I'm coming from with my perspectives, particularly about our current deer-hunting freedoms and opportunities.

When I started deer hunting in Tennessee, we had a 1-buck limit, and a very short gun season. We did not have a muzzleloader season. We did not have any special "juvenile" hunts. We did have an archery season, but very few deer hunters bowhunted, and those that did, they were mostly using recurve bows without sights. Archery season ended on October 31st, and there was no deer hunting, season closed, until gun season began about 3 weeks later.

How would you now like to have a totally closed deer season for the 1st three weeks of November? THAT was a lot less opportunity, and no freedom to hunt deer whatsoever.

Being older and more forgetful now, I really don't remember whether I was 13 or 14 when I killed my first deer with a bow, but I do remember it was a 40-lb Sears recurve, and I was using cedar arrows with a homemade fixed head. I also remember that with exception to "a" doe being legal during archery season, all statewide deer hunting was "buck only", and almost zero bucks survived to become 2 years old. I also didn't own a centerfire deer rifle until I was 20 years old, and until I was 20, all my gun-killed deer were killed with the same 20-ga and 16-ga shotguns we used for hunting everything else. THAT was also a lot less opportunity, as yesterday's shoguns didn't even have half the range of today's muzzleloaders.

For me, there was a time when a successful hunt was just seeing a deer track. Or maybe, seeing a deer track was the icing on the cake of a rabbit hunt. Even though deer are what I hunt most today and for the past few decades, some of my fondest memories of my early hunting days actually had nothing to do with deer hunting.

Even some of my most meaningful deer hunting memories were more about something other than the actual killing of a deer, such as the strong aroma of a broken cedar arrow on a frosty late October morning, the result of a miss, from the first "nice" buck I "should" have killed with a bow. Eight yard shot, buck broadside with frost on his antlers, white smoke rising from his nostrils with each breath, I totally missed. My cedar arrow broke when it hit the ground. What I remember most was smelling that strong scent of cedar almost immediately after the shot.

In many respects, I have a hard time relating to those today complaining about their lack of "freedom" and lack of "opportunity" with today's deer hunting in Tennessee. I also have to question if maybe we've gone down the wrong path by focusing too much on deer hunting and not enough on just hunting.

Over the years I have always done most of my deer hunting in Tennessee, and have done no deer hunting outside TN during the past three (or four) years. I consider myself the epitome of an avid, long-term TN resident deer hunter, and believe I have a good perspective on how it's been and where it's at now. I would describe myself as a "hunter-manager", and although he might believe otherwise, I do not fit BSK's description of a "trophist". Actually, relative to other long-term Tndeer.com "posters", my thoughts and experiences are probably most in line with Mike Belt's, whom I commend for the civility he has shown recently despite the personal attacks many have posted against his thoughts.

 

[TheLBLman]

Over the past few weeks (maybe months) there has been much contention among the http://www.tndeer.com "posting" community, mainly regarding buck limits. On a brighter note, there does not seem to be much "contention" among most of Tennessee's deer hunters, who, in fact, for the most part simply do not care one way or another whether the buck limit is either two or three. The majority seem more interested in knowing the number, rather than choosing the number.

Not caring much about the buck limits may be hard to imagine to the average http://www.tndeeer.com "poster" and/or regular reader, as we may tend to think most other TN deer hunters are much like ourselves. But we ain't "average" at least in terms of our deer-hunting accomplishments and thoughts. We think about deer hunting year-round, easily kill multiple deer annually (if we choose to do so), and tend to associate more with other deer hunters much like ourselves. So, we may not relate well to that more "average" deer hunter, even though they make up the majority of us deer hunters, and never mind, most of them to this day have never even heard of tndeer.com.

Regarding opinions, I'm sure many of you cannot relate to mine. But if you care to hear them, please read on. If not, I do hope you're looking forward to a great hunting season, and I wish you luck.

 

[TheLBLman]

Based on my experiences, without "choosing" any particular number and "generally speaking", I have for many years believed lower buck limits provided more benefits than detriments, particularly to the "average" hunter who never ever really had much "opportunity" to kill 11 bucks annually before TWRA reduced the buck limit to two, back in 1998. Interestingly, back in 1998, there was much more "opposition" to reducing that 11-buck limit (to any lower number) than we are today hearing regarding going from three back to two. And I say "back to two" because until very recently, we in fact did have a 2-buck limit for the majority of Tennessee's deer hunters.

Beginning in 1999 until recently, the only hunters who had more than a 2-buck limit were those who hunted with a bow or a muzzleloader, a minority of deer hunters, but a very effective minority that kills the majority of the deer killed each year. But, again, in 2015 as in 1998, the majority of Tennessee's deer hunters simply don't care whatever is the buck limit, being more concerned about whether a doe or a gun is legal on the next day they can go hunting.

What I'm saying is, this going from a 3 to a 2-buck limit is not only nothing new to most TN deer hunters, but in terms of any "decrease" in opportunity, it's of much less relevance than other factors that have increased our deer-hunting opportunities. Not only have we come from a "simple" 2-buck limit (in 1998), but we also went from increasing the November muzzleloader limit (it was one, yes, "1"), as well as doubling the number of days for muzzleloader hunting in November prior to our more traditional "gun deer season" that begins the weekend before Thanksgiving.

It doesn't matter whether we go back to the 1960's or just back to 1998, our overall opportunities have been steadily increasing for most TN deer hunters, and our going back to a 2-buck limit is not changing this. Granted, there are many individual exceptions, but most have more "opportunity" than ever before, whether they are a young hunter, a new hunter, a lady hunter, or an old hunter like me.

Reflecting back, it really doesn't seem that long ago that archery season ended every year on October 31st, and there was no deer hunting, none, until gun season opened around Thanksgiving. Then someone came up with the idea of a muzzleloader season, which originally ran for just a few days (with a 1-buck limit), then deer season totally closed in between that short muzzleloader season and the opening of "gun" season.

Today, there are no closed deer hunting days between the opening of archery season in September and the end of gun season in January. Well, there is a single weekend in October set aside for juveniles to get the first opportunity with a gun each year. I think it's great to give our young hunters that first gun-hunting opportunity, which is just another of today's opportunities that did not exist in the past.

 

[TheLBLman]

I do not want to come across as "insensitive" to those who have lost their former favorite deer-hunting lands to development, or whatever. I do relate. It has happened to me several times. There are now houses and subdivisions all around the woods lot where I killed my first deer, and many of the places I once hunted have been lost to housing development. Really nothing new here, and that issue effects all hunting, not just deer hunting. My dad commented many times when I was a child, "Right here where our house sits, this is about where I killed my first rabbit. Back then, there wasn't a house in sight of here, nothing but fields and woods. You could just walk around all day hunting, and never worry about whose land you were on." Today, houses and subdivisions there as far as one can see.

But also back then, there were essentially no deer. In fact, the West TN county in which I was born (Obion County) hardly had any deer hunting until I moved to East TN, believe it or not, my move in large part due to a perception of better deer hunting in East TN. It was once the case. I grew up around West TN people with tales of going to the mountains of East TN to hunt deer, as we had few to none then in most West TN counties. There was also the allure of bear, and trout, smallmouth, and other things that always seemed to be greener on the other side of that fence.

But let's talk more about our deer-hunting freedom and opportunity, particularly how it's changed over the years, and relative to each of those states that border Tennessee. By my take, come the 2015 deer season, most of us have more deer-hunting freedom and opportunity here than we might in most of those states that border us, and overall, few deer hunters anywhere are so blessed as we in TN.

 

[TheLBLman]

I hear many complaining about how they believe the public land deer hunting is just bad, and getting worse. When I was growing up, I only wished there was some public land that had deer, or at least allowed deer hunting. Most of what there was back then, it was in East TN and Middle TN. In my college days, for the first time in my life, I had the opportunity to deer hunt on a TWRA-managed WMA. I continued to do that a lot during the 1980's and 90's, and still do some annually today.

True, much land that was once available for anyone from the "public" to hunt, no longer the case with vast tracts, gone. Most of what I'm referring to here are those vast tracts of timber-company owned lands, which were then as now, "private" land, just that they used to allow "public" hunting. On the other hand, much of these same lands do still allow hunting, just not to anyone and everyone, so to some, the hunting on those same lands has become better than ever. But back to public-land deer hunting, my take is it's about at good as ever, and in many cases better. You might have to have experienced the crowded public woods of the 80's and 90's, and the relative lack of deer statewide then, to appreciate that thought.

Another observation: TWRA has both increased the number of WMA's and the deer population on them (collectively) over every decade I've been living. Although I currently consider Stewart County my home, when I left my original family Obion County "home" and moved to Knox County, there were basically no deer nor deer hunting in either Obion or Knox counties. Today, I believe both Obion and Knox counties each have an annual deer harvest exceeding the Henry County annual deer harvest of 1981, the year I moved to East TN. I mention Henry because long term, it ranks overall either #1 or very close in cumulative total deer harvested over the decades.

But, yes, during much of my deer-hunting career, we did have an 11-buck limit. Never mind that we had a lot less deer and a lot more competition from other hunters, on both public and private lands. But did the average deer hunter fare better then?

Not in my opinion. Fewer killed "a" deer then than did last year. Back then, most deer being killed were yearling bucks, and we had a less healthy, very unbalanced deer herd, including very poor daytime movement of bucks. We did see more does (which were usually illegal to kill), but to what extent a 2 1/2-yr-old buck might exist, that "older" buck was much more nocturnal than they are today. Quite simply, in times past, it was much harder to have ANY opportunity at a "legal" deer than compared to today. Again, keep in mind most hunting was "buck-only", and almost no bucks survived their first year with antlers.

We also shared all those public lands with relatively more non-resident hunters, as our high buck limit was a huge magnet to non-residents, drawing them from both close and far away, lots from Kentucky, lots from Pennsylvania. As a resident TN deer hunter mainly hunting public lands, it was a refreshing change in 1998 when so many non-residents no longer saw TN as a good place for them to see how close they could get to that 11-buck limit. My personal hunting opportunities improved dramatically in 1998, when we went back to a 2-buck limit for the first time in over a decade.

 

[TheLBLman]

I do realize that many claim they don't care about the size or age of a buck, but I do believe most hunters appreciate having more opportunity to take an average 3 1/2-yr-old buck compared to an average yearling buck. In 2014, we had about 10 times more opportunity for that compared to most of the 1990's. And going back to the 1980's, even a yearling with more than 6 points would often command a crowd of on-lookers, since most deer hunters had never killed a deer, and among those who had, mostly spikes and 4-pointers.

Back to today, these are the good ole days of deer hunting (at least in TN). Many of us have "issues" with some aspect of the circumstances, the buck limits, doe being illegal where we hunt, etc. But few of today's top complainers would want to have the deer hunting what most had in 1975, or 1985, or 1995, or even 2005. I know, some had it better then than now, but most did not.

But, here's where we are today, and looking forward to the 2015 deer season.

Now, we've gone back to that 2-buck limit, something that only in the past few years had been "simply" increased to three. Is it really "that big" an issue whether it's now "simply" 2, or "2-3", or "simply 3"? To most deer hunters?

To me, it matters little whether it's 1, 2, or 3, as I'm going to look forward to good TN deer hunting regardless. But as with most things in life, I prefer quality over quantity. And I view my life and my hunting more a journey, than a number.

I would ask you consider these comments in the context of the average TN deer hunter, currently taking "a" buck less frequently than every three years, while a minority of avid, hunt-a-lot hunters (like myself) seldom go "a" year without killing one or more bucks.

 

[TheLBLman]

I have for many years advocated a simple 2-buck annual limit as being advantageous to a super-majority of Tennessee's deer hunters. I say this with the belief that whether "any" buck, or only a "certain" buck, is what's desired most, a super-majority of Tennessee's deer hunters would have greater success in achieving THEIR goal of killing at least "a" buck that makes them happy, on a more frequent basis than had been the case under higher buck limits.

A key point I'm attempting to communicate is that the majority of bucks killed annually are killed by the same specific hunters annually. While this will not change majorly with a lower buck limit, (these hunters will continue to be the same hunters killing the majority of the bucks), what will change is that many more hunters will increase their buck-harvest success (as measured by the number of hunters killing one or more bucks annually). Meanwhile, those hunter-managers more interested in quality over quantity will also have their opportunity at least slightly enhanced.

I do expect a lot less hunters to kill 2 bucks annually, but this is those hunters' freedom of choice more than a reduction in their particular opportunities. They can still kill ANY two bucks they so choose, although many of the more accomplished hunters will in fact choose to kill 0 or 1 rather than their former 2 or 3 ---- this is where the buck harvest decreases for this group (not that small percent that used to kill 3 now killing 2, but rather, that group annually successful at killing 1 to 3 bucks now choosing 0 to 2). Again, the opportunity to kill "a" buck, whether "any" buck or a "particular" buck, will become higher than ever before for ALL hunters.

Is this going to be a dramatic change? No. It will be hardly perceived by most deer hunters in 2015. But it will be a positive step, and one that builds increased opportunity annually. Huge? No. But after a few years? Significantly better deer hunting for most, my opinion, especially beginning with the 2017 deer season.

The key questions become which hunters have anything to lose by a reduced buck limit, and which hunters have something to gain? By my analysis, a huge majority have more to gain than a small minority have to lose. Granted, the outcome in going from a 3-buck to a 2-buck limit will not be huge initially, although it will immediately benefit the majority, who currently kill 1 or fewer bucks annually, all of which will gain opportunity to kill "a" buck annually. These benefits will also build progressively each year.

I expect Tennessee's deer hunting to continue to improve (overall) for at least the next 5 years (assuming no changes in the 2-buck limit and no weapons season segment changes). Sadly, at least to me, there will probably come a day when my grandchildren see Tennessee's deer management and hunting becoming more like what is today in Connecticut and New Jersey, and that change will have nothing to do with buck limits. What they have in some Northeastern states, THAT is what I call a real loss in hunting opportunity and hunting freedom, in fact, more of their freedoms lost period. We still have it great in Tennessee, and we're on a trajectory for it to get even better for many years to come.

But mine is just one man's opinion. My hunting friends in KY swear their overall deer hunting opportunity is way better than ours, even though they have a 1-buck limit and half the gun-hunting days. My hunting buddies from Georgia believe they have it better down there because of their antler restrictions on top of a 2-buck limit, and a modern gun season beginning in mid-October running continuously until January. Well, I'm happy enough hunting TN that I haven't gone to any of those states in years now, and it's very convenient for me to hunt in KY. But then, I don't consider myself a "trophyist". I'm just a deer hunter who enjoys every aspect about being a "hunter-manager", year-round, perhaps like many other TnDeer.com posters.

 

[TheLBLman]

Each one of our State's deer hunters buys a deer-hunting license, and that license comes with a 2-buck limit, but more ironic, the basic (lowest cost) deer-hunting license has a zero doe limit. Would at least one (1) female deer coming with that basic deer hunting license make a reduced buck limit more palatable? I'm all for it, and regarding those very few counties some believe can't handle it, exempt those counties. But then, I believe all deer hunting should be "either-sex" and the entire concept of "buck only" should be regulated to antiquity. Want to provide more "opportunity" to the largest number of hunters? Make all hunting "either-sex", all the time, and any time deer hunting is legal. IMO, the "harvest" management goal should typically be for a "balanced" harvest of male & female deer. THAT is the beginning of biologically sound deer management.

Meanwhile, in 2015, more TN counties will have more "antlerless" deer hunting opportunities THAN EVER BEFORE. Never before have more TN residents had more opportunity to kill 3 (or more) deer. Maybe not 3 bucks, but 2 bucks and a doe, or more.

Ironically, some of the most vocal opponents to a 2-buck limit are the very hunters who may benefit most. Am particularly referring to those opponents who do not regularly kill "a" buck, and who do not regularly pass up any bucks, but instead most years don't kill a buck. Just as with them not really having had any real opportunity to kill 11 bucks back in 1997, they are the same hunters who seem to see their opportunity measured only by the maximum number theoretically possible, rather than other factors that matter more, much more to their odds of killing "a" buck. Of course, many of the opponents are those hunters regularly killing 2 to 3 bucks every year, and they feel their opportunity is being reduced, which it is, if their main focus is just how many bucks can I kill rather than how many can kill a buck, or two.

It's all about finding the best balance, and I believe we're in a better place come Fall 2015 than we were in 2014. Again, for some of us regularly posting/reading Tndeer.com, this can be difficult to relate that most deer hunters did not kill "any" deer (buck or doe) in 2014, but that is the reality of our average TN deer hunter.

 

[TheLBLman]

The sky is not falling on TN's deer hunting. We continue to have more days of gun hunting "opportunity" than most states. Unlike several bordering states, TN hunters have TOTAL FREEDOM in killing ANY buck that makes them happy. We don't have any antler restrictions (unless you consider a buck having at least one 3-inch spike an antler restriction.). But that said, the state that is closest to us in size and overall habitat (Kentucky) achieves comparable hunter success with half as many gun days and only a 1-buck limit. But then, a doe tag does come with their most basic (cheapest) deer-hunting opportunity.

Again, the super-majority of TN deer hunters basically don't care what's the buck limit. Among those with opinions, a slight majority has been asking both the TWRA and the TWRA Commissioners to go to a 2-buck limit. For the past several years, it has been near a 50/50 split on that preference of "2" vs. "3", but again, maybe 85% not really caring much one way or the other. Buck limit preferences among hunters have also been "trending" lower in other states as well, and particularly noteworthy that most KY hunters (after many years of a 1-buck limit) do not want to raise their limit (which had been a 2-buck limit for a time in the past).

When TWRA asked the public for comments earlier this year, it's my understanding they received a majority of TN's deer hunters (again, just those with an opinion, as most didn't have one) preferring a 2-buck limit. That's when TWRA requested more comments from the public, even sent out what I felt was a biased solicitation favoring retaining the 3-buck limit. Again, a majority sent in comments expressing a preference for a 2-buck limit. Finally, the Commissioners independently of the TWRA (the "agency) had a similar experience of having more of their constituency (that's "us" hunters) requesting a 2-buck limit than a 3-buck limit.

So when the TWRA failed to recommend changing the 3-buck limit to a 2-buck limit, the Commissioners asked lots of questions, as to why or why not, and asked the TWRA to at least offer an option for a 2-buck limit, so the merits of both 3 or 2 could be weighed more fully. At the next month's meeting (May 2015), TWRA offered the Commission an option for a 2-buck limit, which after careful consideration, was then approved (by the Commission) instead of the option of making no change, or retaining the 3-buck limit.

For those of you who haven't watched the online recording of those commission meetings (both in April & May), it's very much worth your time if you truly want greater insight into how this happened, and why this happened.
http://twraonline.org/TFWC/april-2015.html
http://twraonline.org/TFWC/may-2015.html
At least by this Commission, the 2-buck limit is seen as a small change benefiting the majority of hunters, and a change that not only will not harm herd health, but actually help it. It's more a carburetor adjustment than an engine overhaul.

The sky is not falling. These remain the good ole days of Tennessee's deer hunting.

 

[Vermin93]

Re: TN Deer Hunting - Freedom & Opportunity for All

This is without a doubt the longest, and arguably the best post I've read on this site since I joined. Interesting history, personal experience, perspective, and well-thought-out rationale all rolled into one. Thanks for taking the time to write this post.

 

[landman]

Wes
Your posts are from the Heart and Educational
at the same time, many of us forget or never
knew TN's Deer History.

You have remained silent for for a long long
time on this subject, as others have chosen
to do so.

But when you chose to speak you have done it
so without stirring it up as some have chosen
to do. I myself have been guilty if that on subjects,
But you have set the example to follow above
all others.

Great Posts

Thanks for reminding us all

 

[8 POINTS OR BETTER]

Truly one of the best post I've ever seen on TNDeer. I can only wish that I could put my thoughts into words, like you have with the above post.

 

[PickettSFHunter]

Re: TN Deer Hunting - Freedom & Opportunity for All

Great post Wes. Excellent summation.


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[AT Hiker]

Re: TN Deer Hunting - Freedom & Opportunity for All

This is without a doubt the longest, and arguably the best post I've read on this site since I joined. Interesting history, personal experience, perspective, and well-thought-out rationale all rolled into one. Thanks for taking the time to write this post.

I just took the 5 mins to read this post and I came to the same conclusion. Not only did I gain A LOT of historical information but I felt like he was talking to me personally. Its like he sat me down and put everything into his perspective and said "go forth son and form your own opinion".

Not once did he belittle or come across condescending, which is hard not to do when you feel like your on the defensive end as I feel like any 2 buck supporter is.


Buzzard Breath said something a few days ago about when he first started hunting with his father that once they killed one deer it was over, but only deer hunting. I to was like that with my grandfather, heck I remember when we (my grandfather and I) were more excited about youth deer season than any other season, it was a chance for me to shoot "ANY" deer that walked by. Those memories are what I think about everyday and those experiences shaped me into the person I am today.

Thank you Wes!


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[Mike Belt]

Experience is the best teacher closely followed by learning from the experience of another.

 

[muddyboots]

Nice. No way i could have wrote that correctly. Thanks for the post.

 

[280longshot]

This is without a doubt the longest, and arguably the best post I've read on this site since I joined. Interesting history, personal experience, perspective, and well-thought-out rationale all rolled into one. Thanks for taking the time to write this post.

I completely agree 100%.
Thanks for sharing...

 

[Bone Collector]

Thanks for the Novel! Great post!

I have objected to the 2 buck limit but only because i feel it is being dropped to pacify people that think lowering the limit will create more big buck opportunities.

You hit the nail on the head though. I remember the 11 buck years and the years that you had to hunt with the different weapons to kill all 3 bucks. Essentially nothing is really changing for me. I generally don;t shoot any bucks, because I never see the ones I want to shoot.....

 

[ZachMarkus]

Re: TN Deer Hunting - Freedom & Opportunity for All

Great post Wes