TheLBLman
Well-Known Member
Thank you all for all the comments.
TN Deer Hunting - Freedom & Opportunity for All
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BigSatt
Well-Known Member
Excellent post!!
Makes me think back to the 80's and early 90's.
I remember the 11 buck limit well.
Makes me think back to the 80's and early 90's.
I remember the 11 buck limit well.
TN Larry
Well-Known Member
Very nice, thought out post no matter which side of the fence that you are on.
Matador
Well-Known Member
Excellent post Wes. I remember all of the things you talked about. I too remember when there wasn't a muzzleloading season and the 11 buck limit. I really think an old time hunter (someone who has been hunting deer for. 20-30 year) can relate and really appreciate your post and thoughts more so than some. Great post.
callemquacktn
Well-Known Member
Wes, that has to be a record for the longest post and what a great post it was.
Hunter 257W
Well-Known Member
Very good points. Especially considering how many more days we have to hunt now compared to the days of the split gun season and no ML season. Back then most hunters had 4 weeks period since very few bow hunted. I even remember when they 1st started having a few "Doe days" in middle TN. You'd get all excited 'cause you KNEW you'd get a deer during that time. Well, you'd see does every time you hunted until the sun rose on "Doe days", then the woods were dead as the mall parking lot! 
Mike Belt
Well-Known Member
I can remember when I started hunting and there was absolutely no doe hunting. It was Taboo! Prior to Tn ever starting to hunt them, Ms had their first 1 day doe hunt on a management area and I was there. Only a handful of hunters there were willing to shoot one and the locals were literally up in arms. They vowed to prevent any does from being killed and there were several altercations. One hunter was "accidentally" shot and killed.
Boy! Talk about how things have changed!
Boy! Talk about how things have changed!
Hunter 257W
Well-Known Member
Mike Belt":3eoq3997 said:
:shock: We certainly were well trained to never ever shoot does, so yeah it was hard to trust the TWRA when they suddenly said it was OK but I didn't know anything that drastic happened.
Wes...
Time will tell...or will it?
I have seen SO MANY changes in the rules and regulations, limits and seasons in Tennessee over the past 40 years that it makes my head ache.
I was hunting in the 11 bucks years when killing a doe was BAD!
I have been at it ever since.
And I honestly believe that TWRA, or TWRC, Or whoever is making the decision on bag limits, will probably change the limit AGAIN, due to either public or political pressure from some special interest group BEFORE we have a chance to see this latest (2 buck limit) PLAY OUT.
We already HAVE had a two buck limit, and 3, and 11, and 1 per weapon segment season...good grief this is absoultely ridiculous and has absolutely ZERO sound biological basis for changing the season limits again back down to TWO.
We all know why it was done and the FACT that it WAS done will have no affect on producing any more BIG bucks (or older) than the 3 buck limit produced.
This is in NO WAY, a "step in the right direction". Not even close.
If producing more older age class bucks WERE REALLY the intent, then SHORTEN THE CENTER FIRE RIFLE season. And drop the limit to ONE buck.
But, as you previously stated so well, many of us really do not care if it is 2 or 3. Or 11 or one per weapon type. It really does not matter. We will kill what we want, legally, big or small, old or young.
Time will tell...or will it?
I have seen SO MANY changes in the rules and regulations, limits and seasons in Tennessee over the past 40 years that it makes my head ache.
I was hunting in the 11 bucks years when killing a doe was BAD!
I have been at it ever since.
And I honestly believe that TWRA, or TWRC, Or whoever is making the decision on bag limits, will probably change the limit AGAIN, due to either public or political pressure from some special interest group BEFORE we have a chance to see this latest (2 buck limit) PLAY OUT.
We already HAVE had a two buck limit, and 3, and 11, and 1 per weapon segment season...good grief this is absoultely ridiculous and has absolutely ZERO sound biological basis for changing the season limits again back down to TWO.
We all know why it was done and the FACT that it WAS done will have no affect on producing any more BIG bucks (or older) than the 3 buck limit produced.
This is in NO WAY, a "step in the right direction". Not even close.
If producing more older age class bucks WERE REALLY the intent, then SHORTEN THE CENTER FIRE RIFLE season. And drop the limit to ONE buck.
But, as you previously stated so well, many of us really do not care if it is 2 or 3. Or 11 or one per weapon type. It really does not matter. We will kill what we want, legally, big or small, old or young.
Vermin93
Well-Known Member
TN Deer Hunting - Freedom & Opportunity for All
Declarative statements such as these can make for a not so good post.
Declarative statements such as these can make for a not so good post.
102":wrtm9p0p said:
landman
Well-Known Member
102":z7zkqv3m said:
And what DATA backs this up???
Headhunter
Well-Known Member
landman":1nfuyohz said:
First, great post by Wes.
102, I don't know, why was it done? If you going to say everyone, could you tell us what everyone knows, I guess I am the stupid one?
If you truly believe this will not achieve more big bucks (and that may mean a 100" deer in some areas or a 150" deer in others, just the better bucks areas can produce and SORRY age is the NUMBER ONE factor for bigger bucks, you can have it all, genetics, food, water, soil, heck even the stars aligned correctly, but a dead buck is just that, a dead buck and a dead buck is not ever getting any bigger) then you really need think about it. This also includes just because they live longer doesn't mean you will see one, much less kill one, at least there will a possibility, maybe a small one, but a possibility that we could have more bucks that are bigger, even a small number, is a good thing.
What I feel is the best part about it, is hopefully, those who have killed many deer, especially bucks, but do not shoot does and do not pass up any legal buck, then some of those younger bucks hopefull will walk by a juvenile hunter or a new hunter. I will gladly pass any deer to give a juvenile or a new hunter a chance to kill a deer. I guess the other side can't stand the thought of a juvenile or new hunter having another buck to shoot,
Also, if you do believe that there will be no increase in better bucks, then why are there restrictions at PI, or anywhere for that matter? Why can't the hunters kill whatever buck they wish, or kill 2 or 3? I mean it, if limiting buck kills does nothing in producing better bucks why do it anywhere then? For the legal, ethical hunters, it will for sure mean some number bucks live longer in turn growing some quantity of bigger bucks. For those who do not follow the law and kills over the limit, then you are right, it will not help.
Headhunter wrote,
"If you truly believe this will not achieve more big bucks (and that may mean a 100" deer in some areas or a 150" deer in others, just the better bucks areas can produce and SORRY age is the NUMBER ONE factor for bigger bucks, you can have it all, genetics, food, water, soil, heck even the stars aligned correctly, but a dead buck is just that, a dead buck and a dead buck is not ever getting any bigger) then you really need think about it. This also includes just because they live longer doesn't mean you will see one, much less kill one, at least there will a possibility, maybe a small one, but a possibility that we could have more bucks that are bigger, even a small number, is a good thing. "
First of all...THE 3 things are:AGE, Genetics, nutrition.
If ANY one of these is missing, large antlers are just not very common.
And in MOST of the places I hunt in Tennessee, except the Nashville Basin soils and a few other places with Alpha soils, even the older age class bucks usually do not sport very large racks.
But in places where good genetics and nutrition are common, even younger bucks on average will outscore older age class bucks.
THere are such a small percentage of hunters killing 3 bucks each year that a drop in buck limit of only 1 (for a total of 2 bucks) will make little difference.
But I really do not care. I will (as Wes pointed out) "get mine".
What really agitates me about all this limit and season change discussion is the fact that nobody seems to be HONEST about what they really want.
And we all know it is to manage for LARGER RACKED bucks.
I know this, you know this, and anyone who is honest about it will admit it.
So how do we get larger racked bucks?
1-Import genetics
2-Provide more nutrition
3-Reduce hunting opportunities with long range high powered weapons and LONGGGG seasons. :bash:
THis will improve Age, Genetics, and Nutrition.
Of course it will also be VERY expensive to implement on a Statewide Basis.
But hey...it is the ONLY way we are EVER going to be able to make everyone happy so they can kill a big buck.
:bash: :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash:
"If you truly believe this will not achieve more big bucks (and that may mean a 100" deer in some areas or a 150" deer in others, just the better bucks areas can produce and SORRY age is the NUMBER ONE factor for bigger bucks, you can have it all, genetics, food, water, soil, heck even the stars aligned correctly, but a dead buck is just that, a dead buck and a dead buck is not ever getting any bigger) then you really need think about it. This also includes just because they live longer doesn't mean you will see one, much less kill one, at least there will a possibility, maybe a small one, but a possibility that we could have more bucks that are bigger, even a small number, is a good thing. "
First of all...THE 3 things are:AGE, Genetics, nutrition.
If ANY one of these is missing, large antlers are just not very common.
And in MOST of the places I hunt in Tennessee, except the Nashville Basin soils and a few other places with Alpha soils, even the older age class bucks usually do not sport very large racks.
But in places where good genetics and nutrition are common, even younger bucks on average will outscore older age class bucks.
THere are such a small percentage of hunters killing 3 bucks each year that a drop in buck limit of only 1 (for a total of 2 bucks) will make little difference.
But I really do not care. I will (as Wes pointed out) "get mine".
What really agitates me about all this limit and season change discussion is the fact that nobody seems to be HONEST about what they really want.
And we all know it is to manage for LARGER RACKED bucks.
I know this, you know this, and anyone who is honest about it will admit it.
So how do we get larger racked bucks?
1-Import genetics
2-Provide more nutrition
3-Reduce hunting opportunities with long range high powered weapons and LONGGGG seasons. :bash:
THis will improve Age, Genetics, and Nutrition.
Of course it will also be VERY expensive to implement on a Statewide Basis.
But hey...it is the ONLY way we are EVER going to be able to make everyone happy so they can kill a big buck.
:bash: :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash:
Headhunter
Well-Known Member
I apologize and nice reply 102, I agree with most of your post, except no matter the conditions, the way to see the best buck that can be grown in an area is to let them get some age. That can mean the best buck could be 100" or 200" or anywhere in between. It is also amazing to me to see how many truly large bucks are being killed in some areas that have horrible genetics and the worst nutrition. I know of a buck just over 150" killed in one of the worst areas in this state as far as nutrition and genetics go, at least if you listen to a couple of "guys that know it all on here and many on here think they do" and have stated age will make no difference, and the guy that killed it would have bet you any amount of money that there wasn't a deer much over 100"s there, much less what he killed. They have to be alive to grow antlers, it is amazing how big bucks can and do show up anywhere.
I completely agree with the hunting seasons (all gun hunting month of November only), but not high powered weapons. You almost have to get rid of all gun hunting as far as your point there. I killed a great buck with my muzzleloader at just over 250 yards last year. Killed a great buck with my 20 ga at 172 yards the year before.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with helping some number of bucks live longer. In my opinion, I am not a good enough hunter to see the older, smarter mature bucks (hoping this change helps at least a little), but the more there are alive the better my chances. I know my chances when they are dead.
Also passing up more bucks may give a juvenile or new hunter, especially on public ground, a better chance to kill a buck, no matter the size, and to me that is the best part of the whole deal. Heck one that gets some age because he gets passed, and grows a nice set of antlers (whatever that means in a given area) and a juvenile gets to see it or even better, kills it, what can be better than that?
I am also wishing the juvenile weekend would go back to the first weekend in November. That, to me, is one wrong that needs to be corrected. Juvenile weekend is now generally HOT and also at a time when deer are not moving no where near as well as they are the first weekend in November. That is just plain selfishness on the part of whoever changed that.
I completely agree with the hunting seasons (all gun hunting month of November only), but not high powered weapons. You almost have to get rid of all gun hunting as far as your point there. I killed a great buck with my muzzleloader at just over 250 yards last year. Killed a great buck with my 20 ga at 172 yards the year before.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with helping some number of bucks live longer. In my opinion, I am not a good enough hunter to see the older, smarter mature bucks (hoping this change helps at least a little), but the more there are alive the better my chances. I know my chances when they are dead.
Also passing up more bucks may give a juvenile or new hunter, especially on public ground, a better chance to kill a buck, no matter the size, and to me that is the best part of the whole deal. Heck one that gets some age because he gets passed, and grows a nice set of antlers (whatever that means in a given area) and a juvenile gets to see it or even better, kills it, what can be better than that?
I am also wishing the juvenile weekend would go back to the first weekend in November. That, to me, is one wrong that needs to be corrected. Juvenile weekend is now generally HOT and also at a time when deer are not moving no where near as well as they are the first weekend in November. That is just plain selfishness on the part of whoever changed that.
HH,
No apology needed. I appreciate you saying that though.
Headhunter Wrote, " and the guy that killed it would have bet you any amount of money that there wasn't a deer much over 100"s there, much less what he killed. They have to be alive to grow antlers, it is amazing how big bucks can and do show up anywhere." (do a search for Richard Britt in Tn deer registry)
Are you talking about ME??? Because that is what I said when that buck showed up.
Of course there are always exceptions.
But in Tennessee, (again most parts not the alpha soils areas), we should use our resources how they may best be used.
And I do not think trying to manage for big racked bucks is best.
Here is another "intangible" few people get to talk about much, or hear being talked about much.
IMO...the VAST majority of deer hunters (even some of the veterans with whom I regularly hunt) are ABSOLUTELY HORRIBLE at judging age of deer. Even after they are dead (forget while they are upright).
Most hunters I have met relate antler size to age.
I can't count the number of spikes and small racked bucks I have seen in the mature open forests I frequent that even though they sport small antlers, are actually quite old...even 5 PLUS.
DOes this make them less a trophy????
You bet your butt it does. In fact, how many have you seen on hunters walls???
Yet, how many 2.5-3.5 year old racked bucks have you seen mounted?
Letting another year get under the rack of a Tennessee buck is NOT, I repeat NOT about letting them MATURE. THat buck will get killed at 2.5 or 3.5 with 130 plus inches of antler.
It is all about the horns!!! Nothing else.
Not nutrition, genetics, maturity...OR HEALTH of the herd.
If it were, we would be listening to the BIOLOGISTS!!!
No apology needed. I appreciate you saying that though.
Headhunter Wrote, " and the guy that killed it would have bet you any amount of money that there wasn't a deer much over 100"s there, much less what he killed. They have to be alive to grow antlers, it is amazing how big bucks can and do show up anywhere." (do a search for Richard Britt in Tn deer registry)
Are you talking about ME??? Because that is what I said when that buck showed up.
Of course there are always exceptions.
But in Tennessee, (again most parts not the alpha soils areas), we should use our resources how they may best be used.
And I do not think trying to manage for big racked bucks is best.
Here is another "intangible" few people get to talk about much, or hear being talked about much.
IMO...the VAST majority of deer hunters (even some of the veterans with whom I regularly hunt) are ABSOLUTELY HORRIBLE at judging age of deer. Even after they are dead (forget while they are upright).
Most hunters I have met relate antler size to age.
I can't count the number of spikes and small racked bucks I have seen in the mature open forests I frequent that even though they sport small antlers, are actually quite old...even 5 PLUS.
DOes this make them less a trophy????
You bet your butt it does. In fact, how many have you seen on hunters walls???
Yet, how many 2.5-3.5 year old racked bucks have you seen mounted?
Letting another year get under the rack of a Tennessee buck is NOT, I repeat NOT about letting them MATURE. THat buck will get killed at 2.5 or 3.5 with 130 plus inches of antler.
It is all about the horns!!! Nothing else.
Not nutrition, genetics, maturity...OR HEALTH of the herd.
If it were, we would be listening to the BIOLOGISTS!!!
Headhunter
Well-Known Member
I am familiar with a couple of pieces of property that are managed and have professionial biologist working with them, hugely successfull properties with no fence and not in "big buck states" (they for sure disagree with BSK several reasons, not a bash, just their opinion and I agree with them), and they completely agree with the move to 2 bucks. They do not think it is going to make Tennessee a BIG buck state but for sure think it is a move in the right direction.
Mike Belt
Well-Known Member
How can anyone disagree that giving the bucks an opportunity to age doesn't also give them the opportunity to express whatever antler potential they may have? They can't. I'd have to agree that the attempt to do so is more about seeing bigger antlers than it is having the opportunity to shoot an older buck. The 2 limit change wasn't based entirely on that as much as some people keep wanting to believe. There are other secondary benefits including an older age structure enabling hunters to see more of a natural selection in the deer herds and the possibility of hunters actually seeing more bucks of any age.
Mike Belt wrote,
"How can anyone disagree that giving the bucks an opportunity to age doesn't also give them the opportunity to express whatever antler potential they may have? They can't. I'd have to agree that the attempt to do so is more about seeing bigger antlers than it is having the opportunity to shoot an older buck. The 2 limit change wasn't based entirely on that as much as some people keep wanting to believe. There are other secondary benefits including an older age structure enabling hunters to see more of a natural selection in the deer herds and the possibility of hunters actually seeing more bucks of any age."
Nobody is saying that at all Mike. That is not the point.
THe point IS that reducing this limit from 3 to 2 affects EXTREMELY few bucks.
It is insignificant across the state.
Let's ger SERIOUS...
If we want to grow older bucks...reduce the RIFLE season in length.
Let's go to a season like Illinois or one of the other "big buck" States and GET SERIOUS about protecting our bucks.
ONE buck limit...NO RIFLE season at all,,,and a short shotgun / muzzleloader season...
THat will produce some REALLY old bucks.
Not that there will be that many more big racks...just older bucks. (at least on trail cam at night)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"How can anyone disagree that giving the bucks an opportunity to age doesn't also give them the opportunity to express whatever antler potential they may have? They can't. I'd have to agree that the attempt to do so is more about seeing bigger antlers than it is having the opportunity to shoot an older buck. The 2 limit change wasn't based entirely on that as much as some people keep wanting to believe. There are other secondary benefits including an older age structure enabling hunters to see more of a natural selection in the deer herds and the possibility of hunters actually seeing more bucks of any age."
Nobody is saying that at all Mike. That is not the point.
THe point IS that reducing this limit from 3 to 2 affects EXTREMELY few bucks.
It is insignificant across the state.
Let's ger SERIOUS...
If we want to grow older bucks...reduce the RIFLE season in length.
Let's go to a season like Illinois or one of the other "big buck" States and GET SERIOUS about protecting our bucks.
ONE buck limit...NO RIFLE season at all,,,and a short shotgun / muzzleloader season...
THat will produce some REALLY old bucks.
Not that there will be that many more big racks...just older bucks. (at least on trail cam at night)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
landman
Well-Known Member
[quote="102
THe point IS that reducing this limit from 3 to 2 affects EXTREMELY few bucks.
It is insignificant across the state.
across the state you may be right, as in Units A & B
But in parts of Unit L it could make a major difference
THe point IS that reducing this limit from 3 to 2 affects EXTREMELY few bucks.
It is insignificant across the state.
across the state you may be right, as in Units A & B
But in parts of Unit L it could make a major difference
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