Qdm and cwd

[tnanh]

QDM as we know know it may have to change with cwd. 4 1/2 year old deer may be few and far between in some places. Even 3 1/2 year olds may become trophies. We may have to go back to just enjoying a huntable population instead of trophy hunting. There are still way too many hunters in this state whe so not know about cwd.

 

[muddyboots]

If that happens sadly I'm done.

 

[tnanh]

I hope it never gets so bad that I quit. Talk to a lot of locals in middle Tennessee and they dont know about cwd at all and I am far from an expert. The last two deer I killed in Hardeman county on Jan 31. They were both young does and were not traveling together. Both tested positive. I can remember when I was a reenager hunting iin Perry county hunting for three or four days and being happy just to see a few deer. I hope
It doesnt get back to that but I feel certain we will see a much younger age class of bucks in the population.

 

[Grnwing]

My farm is in the CWD zone and I have plenty of good bucks roaming around, they are there because they have been passed up on. Hunters are still going to kill way more deer in the CWD zone then the disease itself. I have continued to hunt the same way i did before CWD was discovered in TN. Overtime, CWD will reduce the average age of the deer herd but you will still have old bucks that aren't infected. Reduced deer densities to below carrying capacity will help suppress the spread of CWD but also provide better conditions for the majority of non infected deer. One stat that you cannot find a lot of information on is the number of matures bucks per acre in a given population. I believe there are already very few 4.5+ year old bucks and when you start looking at breaking down deer densities by sex and age class you do not have a lot of mature deer

I think the biggest danger to the mature buck population is the hunter settling to shoot a buck they would not normally shoot by justifying that if he doesn't kill it, CWD wil. JMHO

 

[tnanh]

I do wish more people woud intelligently discuss this just as you have grnwng. Its like its a taboo to bring up having a younger age structure and maybe having to "settle" for younger bucks.There are a lot of angles for discussion on this. One is that an older buck has more likelyhood of spreading the disease the longer he lives and the further he roams
During the rut. I have killed some very nice bucks and I have killed some smaller bucks also but I have never "settled" for a buck. I have enjoyed the hunt on every deer I have ever killed and have no problem with someone killing a smaller buck as long as they enjoy the hunt.

 

[jejeffrries71]

I think the biggest danger to the mature buck population is the hunter settling to shoot a buck they would not normally shoot by justifying that if he doesn't kill it, CWD will.

I get the impression that is what TWRA is asking. Isn't part of the reason for replacement bucks and bonus bucks? The hunting guide gave me the impression that they want more deed taken period.

 

[fairchaser]

CWD and QDM seem to be at cross purposes. The idea behind QDM is allow bucks to get older by passing up younger bucks as well as keeping a balanced deer herd below carrying capacity. CWD and the state biologists would still want you to kill older bucks and keep populations low and balanced. Older bucks would naturally be more prevalent with CWD and carry the disease further so they should be targeted. The real question is the definition of "older" buck. CWD doesn't get every buck but could be as high as 50% in 3.5 year old bucks. Some bucks will live longer than 3.5 but there will be fewer. When you figure the scarcity of older bucks anyway and the probability of having a larger than average rack, the odds really diminish for that 4-5 year old trophy. But, if you still only want him, then he's going to be tough to get but he's still out there.

That's why I'm curious about those that have quit or say they would if CWD gets their area because they are only mature buck hunters. Just because the challenge got more difficult, maybe even cut in half, it's still very possible under CWD. Isn't it the challenge that keeps us hunting?

 

[TheLBLman]

QDM as we know know it may have to change with cwd. 4 1/2 year old deer may be few and far between in some places.

From my perspective, this is ALL the MORE REASON to manage by QDM guidelines.

If CWD results in 20% more deer dying annually, how is that much different than hunters killing 20% more deer annually?
What if both happen? Now 40% more deer are dying annually?

If the goal is to maintain a biologically sound, balanced, natural deer herd, a case could be made for hunters killing fewer, not more deer.
Older bucks becoming more scarce? How about shooting fewer younger bucks then?

I think the biggest danger to the mature buck population is the hunter settling to shoot a buck they would not normally shoot by justifying that if he doesn't kill it, CWD wil.

Totally agree (as well as with the rest of your post)!
I've been saying for years that I have much more concern about "reactions" and "responses" to CWD than the disease itself.
I continue to feel exactly the same about this --- at least to some degree, CWD is being used as an excuse to make some changes, both by wildlife managers and by hunters.

Seriously, and again to some degree, the CWD fear-mongering is a bit like the Climate Change fear-mongering,
at least regarding the high prices we can pay to accomplish very little more than making no changes at all.
I'm all for "reasonable", but let's not throw out the baby with the bath water.
I do believe most of what TWRA has done (thus far) has been reasonable.
Continuance or expansion of some changes may not be reasonable.

 

[TheLBLman]

That's why I'm curious about those that have quit or say they would if CWD gets their area because they are only mature buck hunters. Just because the challenge got more difficult, maybe even cut in half, it's still very possible under CWD. Isn't it the challenge that keeps us hunting?

I'm personally not so worried about CWD destroying the mature buck population.
It's going to reduce it. So does increasing the buck limit. So does allowing rifles during archery season.

I am worried about TWRA changing the regs, and ultimately taking us back to a deer herd, and deer hunting similar to what we had in the 1980's.
It's not that it was all bad, but I would choose to hunt something different (or fish), if there was only a small chance of seeing a 2 1/2-yr-old or older buck, in an entire deer season. I eat venison, and would still take out a doe or two annually for that purpose. But my former deer-hunting time would either be used deer-hunting in some other state or simply hunting something other than deer.

I love to squirrel hunt.
The limit is 10 a day. To me, every squirrel is a trophy squirrel.
Some want to make deer hunting more like squirrel hunting.
I prefer to keep them a much more different challenge,
as just "any" deer is currently not much more a hunting challenge than "any" squirrel.

QDM allows all deer hunters "reasonable" representation to their personal deer hunting preferences.
Allowing a subset of hunters to kill too many bucks does not.

 

[fairchaser]

That's why I'm curious about those that have quit or say they would if CWD gets their area because they are only mature buck hunters. Just because the challenge got more difficult, maybe even cut in half, it's still very possible under CWD. Isn't it the challenge that keeps us hunting?

I'm personally not so worried about CWD destroying the mature buck population.
It's going to reduce it. So does increasing the buck limit. So does allowing rifles during archery season.

I am worried about TWRA changing the regs, and ultimately taking us back to a deer herd, and deer hunting similar to what we had in the 1980's.
It's not that it was all bad, but I would choose to hunt something different (or fish), if there was only a small chance of seeing a 2 1/2-yr-old or older buck, in an entire deer season. I eat venison, and would still take out a doe or two annually for that purpose. But my former deer-hunting time would either be used deer-hunting in some other state or simply hunting something other than deer.

I love to squirrel hunt.
The limit is 10 a day. To me, every squirrel is a trophy squirrel.
Some want to make deer hunting more like squirrel hunting.
I prefer to keep them a much more different challenge,
as just "any" deer is currently not much more a hunting challenge than "any" squirrel.

QDM allows all deer hunters "reasonable" representation to their personal deer hunting preferences.
Allowing a subset of hunters to kill too many bucks does not.

I agree with you LBLman regarding the 2.5 year old buck hunting. I wouldn't be willing to hunt that much and spend thousands as I do now to pursue mature bucks if that is our future. I hope it isn't and wonder why the state would go that direction when most everything they have done over the years has moved toward killing more mature bucks. CWD definitely has them flipping the other way. Once they figure out that CWD will spread regardless maybe these unlimited buck tags will go away and maybe they won't. Large clubs like Ames maybe the only places left with mature buck populations. It's interesting that Ames lost some veteran members and at the same time got 7-8 new members. At some point I want to ask each member why they joined. That will be interesting.

 

[TheLBLman]

It's interesting that Ames lost some veteran members and at the same time got 7-8 new members. At some point I want to ask each member why they joined. That will be interesting.

Agree, will be interesting to hear what they say.

Often, what matters least to an accomplished hunter
can be what matters most to a novice.

With Ames, some may see it as their only ongoing nearby hope to deer hunt a biologically sound deer herd.
Others may be joining Ames because they "like" the extra deer-killing opportunities currently being regulated into the CWD Zone,
like using centerfire rifles in muzzleloader, and getting extra buck tags.
Be great hunting this year!

And who wouldn't want to kill more bucks instead of fewer?!?
It's just that more quantity will (in time) equate to less quality?

What about a couple years and beyond down the road?

The sky isn't falling due to CWD,
nor will it fall inside a year or two no matter how they change the regs.
Should still be good deer hunting from all perspectives this year,
albeit some new (justified) inconveniences on the deer you kill.

 

[fairchaser]

It's interesting that Ames lost some veteran members and at the same time got 7-8 new members. At some point I want to ask each member why they joined. That will be interesting.

Agree, will be interesting to hear what they say.

Often, what matters least to an accomplished hunter
can be what matters most to a novice.

With Ames, some may see it as their only ongoing nearby hope to deer hunt a biologically sound deer herd.
Others may be joining Ames because they "like" the extra deer-killing opportunities currently being regulated into the CWD Zone,
like using centerfire rifles in muzzleloader, and getting extra buck tags.
Be great hunting this year!

And who wouldn't want to kill more bucks instead of fewer?!?
It's just that more quantity will (in time) equate to less quality?

What about a couple years and beyond down the road?

The sky isn't falling due to CWD,
nor will it fall inside a year or two no matter how they change the regs.
Should still be good deer hunting from all perspectives this year,
albeit some new (justified) inconveniences on the deer you kill.

Very good points! Ames is allowing an extra buck tag this year and following the states rules for early starts to MzL and gun season. The minimum score was lowered 5 inches as well. With fewer members overall, it could be a bonanza for bucks at least for a few years.

 

[alaska_av8r]

I'm still not convinced they (researchers) really know what is going to happen to the deer herd and specifically older age classes of bucks. I am not knocking the researchers at all, there is still so much to be learned and studied and if they can't stop it, cure it or fix it, then that tells me all the cards may have not been put on the table. They have drawn some sensible conclusions upon looking at the evidence and very well may prove to be facts in the end but to me cwd is still very much open ended.

For that reason I am not going to fret too much about it, we may lose a lot of older age class bucks to cwd, we may not. Nature has an amazingly resilient and may surprise us in the end. I agree with the above mentioned idea that a decrease in older age bucks will more likely be caused by hunters than cwd. So for me I am still going to go about hunting and support those trying to stop this disease by doing what I can. Sometimes just being in the woods is enough!