Northern Cumberland Plateau Bucks

348Winchester

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This is in relation to another thread about a very large Morgan County buck killed this past season. Morgan, Scott, and Fentress Counties have yielded some very big bucks over the years. I believe the state record buck for many decades came from the Morgan County side of Hatfield Mountain.

I have hunted Morgan/Scott since starting hunting in 1983 and have been fortunate to kill a few brutes over the years. The buck in the picture on the other thread has an amazing resemblence to one I royally blew it on in 2000!
 

BSK

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The production of really big bucks from the northern Plateau area has always been a mystery to me. Not the greatest habitat, but it sure produces some bruisers.
 

killingtime 41

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The production of really big bucks from the northern Plateau area has always been a mystery to me. Not the greatest habitat, but it sure produces some bruisers.
Got a question for you if soil is the end all be all. Then how do places in Tn mountains hold giant bucks. Only thing they have going for them is age. So I know great soil and old age doesn't always create big bucks. But in my 35 years of hunting I've seen the biggest of all the bucks being in places they can grow old but with terrible soil.
 

CrossVolle

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The production of really big bucks from the northern Plateau area has always been a mystery to me. Not the greatest habitat, but it sure produces some bruisers.
I was always told growing up it goes back to the restock. Those deer in that area were brought in from Wisconsin (at least what i was told). I am sure the vast majority of those genes have been bred out by now, but have to think there are situations in which the stars align genetically. Couple that with some rugged, unforgiving terrain i would think a few could get old and big.
 

BSK

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Got a question for you if soil is the end all be all. Then how do places in Tn mountains hold giant bucks. Only thing they have going for them is age. So I know great soil and old age doesn't always create big bucks. But in my 35 years of hunting I've seen the biggest of all the bucks being in places they can grow old but with terrible soil.
Bell-curve distribution. Get enough mature bucks (and the mountains have a high percentage of them), and you're going to find one or two at the top end (far right on the bell curve). But there are far more in the middle of the bell curve, which in the mountains isn't very high-scoring. Hunters see the few far-right-of-the-curve mature bucks and think the area is highly productive. What they don't notice is all the 80-100 class mature bucks, and there's a snot-load of those.

A prime real-world example. Over the last 20 years, I've gotten trail-camera pictures of three different 3 1/2 year-old bucks on my property that scored in the 150s. Hunters hear that and think, 150-class bucks at 3 1/2? Wow your property is productive! Not really. Over those 20 years I've photographed 111 different 3 1/2 year-old bucks and their average score is only 105. The vast majority fall in the 80-120 range, but yes, a few - a very few - have been monsters. And an equal number have been tiny for their age. The bell-curve distribution.
 

348Winchester

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The production of really big bucks from the northern Plateau area has always been a mystery to me. Not the greatest habitat, but it sure produces some bruisers.
I have hunted an area of reclaimed strip mines in Scott County since 1997. There have been numerous very large bucks taken there. I blew it on one nearly identical to the monster posted in the "State Record" thread. This area consists of 1200-1500 acres. It is rugged and thick for the most part. There is a core area of about 150-200 acres where the majority of the nicer bucks have been killed.

I wish I had your skills in collecting data. Maybe that would help me answer some nagging questions!
 

BSK

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Another example of bell-curve distribution - the famous King Ranch in TX. Everyone has seen hunting shows filmed there, with some truly top-end mature bucks killed. But here's an interesting fact: the average 4 1/2 year-old buck on my property over the last 20 years only grosses 120. But guess what, so does the average mature buck on the King Ranch! In fact, age-class by age-class, the average gross score on my place is nearly identical to the data from the King Ranch. So how do they kill so many monster bucks on the King Ranch if the average 4 1/2 only grosses 120? The shear number of mature bucks to work with and the bell-curve distribution. Hunters on the King Ranch kill only one buck per 1,200 acres (and that includes smaller "management bucks"). When you have a population of deer living on hundreds of thousand of acres, and you're only killing one buck per 1,200 acres, you're just taking the very top-end (far right of the bell curve).
 

TheLBLman

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To get a much better understanding as to "why" we sometimes see more top-end antlered bucks coming out of places like the Cherokee National Forest and other poor-soil, poor-habitat areas of East TN, study up on hunters' collectively "high grading" (removing or killing off) the very best antlered younger bucks (commonly at the ages of 1 1/2 to 3 1/2)

Rugged, remote terrain, such as much of the Cherokee simply does not experience as much deer hunting (say as the higher-quality habitat of West TN). With less hunting, comes less hunter antler high-grading.

Also, many of this subset of deer hunters (in remote areas of East TN) are actually deer hunting for reasons that may be greater than pursuing a "trophy" buck. Their goals are often as much about wilderness adventure, and they are happy with "any" buck, rather than selecting a particular young one with above average antlers (for its age).

Their deer harvests therefore can actually just be more "random", not specifically targeting a particular high-scoring young buck. Thus, more of the young bucks with better antler genetics survive to maturity under these circumstances.

What this means is that a higher percentage of the best antler genetics (in the young bucks) may be allowed to reach maturity (age 5 1/2 to 7 1/2) where fully mature bucks tend to "express" more of their genetic potential. About the only way this typically happens is with either much less or zero deer hunting at all.

In most of TN, we actually see just the opposite, in that our very best antlered young bucks rarely survive past 3 1/2 yrs of age, and in fact, most are dead by a hunter's bullet by the time they could reach 2 1/2. In essence, the "best stock" is killed off too soon (for growing high-scoring antlers), while the "worst stock" is given a free pass to live to maturity.

Perhaps even more ironic, most "antler restrictions" whereby only the bucks with say "8 or 9 points" become legal bucks, those very antler restrictions only make the antler high-grading WORSE for those very top-end antlered 2 1/2 & 3 1/2-yr-old bucks.

We see this with both QDM & "Trophy" buck "management". Yes, 1 1/2's and some 2 1/2's get protected, but it's mainly the ones with below average antlers for their age given a pass. Top-end 3 1/2's are simply more likely to be killed by a hunter under most QDM & "Trophy" buck management programs across TN.

Most antler restrictions do in fact help create more 3 1/2 & older bucks in a local herd, but those bucks surviving to 3 1/2 & older tend to be mainly the ones with way below average antler genetics.

The shear number of mature bucks to work with and the bell-curve distribution. Hunters on the King Ranch kill only one buck per 1,200 acres (and that includes smaller "management bucks").
The King Ranch, compared to most of TN, has a very low buck kill, and most uniquely differently than most of TN, the King Ranch actually highly protects those young bucks with the best antler genetics, until those bucks are fully mature enough to "express" their superior potential. Most places deer hunted (in TN) are experiencing exactly the opposite of what the King Ranch is doing.

To effectively off-set a high degree of hunters' antler-high-grading, an extraordinary acreage is typically needed in TN. In fact, I know of no such acreage large enough in TN (that allows deer hunting coinciding or surrounded with TN's statewide seasons). Even the 20,000-acre Ames' Plantation has proven to not have enough acreage to do this. Although Ames' was never doing things anything like the King Ranch.

Guess there are a lot more options when one can privately control a contiguous land mass of over 800,000 acres. That's a land mass approximately the size of the entire State of Rhode Island. One buck per 1200 acres allowed to be killed, and either the younger below averaged antlered, or the really mature survivors, among which, ONLY the top-end antlered were "allowed" to survive.

Seeing how relatively few B&C class bucks can be produced at the King Ranch, helps one to appreciate just how few bucks born even have the genetical POTENTIAL to grow antlers that large (at least in wild, free-roaming deer herds).
 
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BSK

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Excellent post TheLBLman. I just finished cobbling together some data I'm presenting to a hunting club about high-grading. Once I've given that presentation, I'll post the data here. It involves large hunting clubs in TN. Some have little high-grading, some have extreme high-grading.
 

Carlos

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I agree, as posted, it's related to the stocking operation that brought deer to the area from Wisconsin.
👍
There's a lot less animals overall though.
 

Ski

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I have hunted an area of reclaimed strip mines in Scott County since 1997.

That there is my guess. Strip mining indicates minerals near the surface that aren't available just anywhere. Those minerals are present in everything the deer eat. It's present in momma's milk and everything that grows. I'd be interested in seeing an analysis of the nutritional value of browse there compared to say southern middle TN.
 

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