If Saturday is your first Muzzle loader hunt.

[tsc]

I know old timers know this but somebody just getting started on their own might not. 2 hints; Clean the breech plug in you gun with brake cleaner to make sure it is totally oil free and dry ,firing a primer through it gunks it up.(just wipe what ever oil is in the barrel out with a couple of dry patches to get it cleared of oil) And most important, if you shoot a deer,when the smoke gets out of the way and the deer isn't looking at you, reload your gun immediately.Have a speed loader in your front pocket and ready. Even if it's laying right in front of you,reload and watch the deer for a few minutes before you climb down,if he tries to get up at all shoot him again and reload. This was a lesson learned the hard way years ago,I very nearly lost a buck that was "dead" 30 yards from my treestand. I got him much later in the day,but it wasn't good,if I had reloaded right away it would have been done right then.

As good as the new guns are,none of them have much more power than a 44 magnum rifle,they are not really a high power weapon and they for sure aren't on par with a centerfire deer caliber rifle,even a 243 makes them look like weaklings.

 

[ImThere]

Hmm mm

the one and only "ImThere"

 

[TNReb]

As good as the new guns are,none of them have much more power than a 44 magnum rifle,they are not really a high power weapon and they for sure aren't on par with a centerfire deer caliber rifle,even a 243 makes them look like weaklings.

Not sure what other people are shooting, but my MZ has more energy at 100 yards that just about any .243 load. At 50 yards, it isn't even close.

Most modern day MZ's pack a serious punch under 100 yards. To say they aren't a high power weapon isn't a very accurate claim. I would agree if you said they aren't a long-range weapon.

 

[Jcalder]

As good as the new guns are,none of them have much more power than a 44 magnum rifle,they are not really a high power weapon and they for sure aren't on par with a centerfire deer caliber rifle,even a 243 makes them look like weaklings.

Not sure what other people are shooting, but my MZ has more energy at 100 yards that just about any .243 load. At 50 yards, it isn't even close.

Most modern day MZ's pack a serious punch under 100 yards. To say they aren't a high power weapon isn't a very accurate claim. I would agree if you said they aren't a long-range weapon.

x2. My muzzleloader is shooting a 250gr bullet around 2000fps giving it around 2200ft/lbs at the muzzle. My 243 with a 100gr bullet going 3000fps is under 2000ft/lbs


Big or small, kill em all

 

[tsc]

There are exceptions,but averaged with older guns(non 150gr.magnum) a 50/50 of 777 and a 250sst clocks in at 1785 fpi. A 243-100/2950 gives 1933 and a 30-30-150/2390 gives 1903. Those two cartridges are on the low end and the farther the three bullets get from the muzzle the greater the difference becomes. I just didn't want somebody new to muzzle loaders to get the idea you can shoot deer with one and it will flatten them like a 270 or 7 mag. Shot placement for shot placement, muzzle loaders don't kill even close to a centerfire in common deer calibers. They just don't shock a deer's nervous system like the higher velocity bullets do. Three times I have knocked a deer off his feet with a muzzleloader and had them get up and go,I've never had that happen with a centerfire.

 

[GMB54]

As good as the new guns are,none of them have much more power than a 44 magnum rifle,they are not really a high power weapon and they for sure aren't on par with a centerfire deer caliber rifle,even a 243 makes them look like weaklings.

Got to agree with the others. A 44mag rifle pales in comparison to a modern inline. Just using BH209 in my 45cal i can shoot a 275gr at 2100fps without too much effort. 2300fps with a 200gr sabot load is a walk in the park. I doubt a 44mag could even begin to launch one of my 460gr conicals at 1400fps.

My 54cal delivers nearly identical ballistics as a 458SOCOM or 50 Beowulf when i shoot a 300gr bullet.

The new Rem Ultimate ML will shoot a 250gr bullet in the 2300fps range and a 300gr isnt too far behind that.

They may not be on par in terms of bullet drop with higher BC center fires but its is very possible if you want to get into the custom sub caliber smokeless builds. Swinglock MLs will pretty much equal any caliber they sell from 6.5mm to 416.

 

[tsc]

Like I said there are exceptions but I don't think the average guy just getting into muzzle loading is gonna drop 3 grand on a custom gun,It is more likely he's buying a Traditions or somebodies used 100 grn gun. But anyway, here's a comparison from Chuck Hawks on pistol cartridges in rifles vs rifle cartridges, you can see that the 240gr 44 magnum muzzle velocity is about like a 100 grn 250 muzzle loader, compared to the 30-30, the 44 has about the same energy at 100 yards that the 30-30 carries to 200.

To start, here are velocity figures for some representative factory loads, taken from the Winchester and Remington ammo catalogs. (Caliber, bullet weight and type - muzzle velocity, velocity at 100 yards.)

.30-30, Win. 150 grain ST - 2390 fps MV, 2018 fps at 100 yds.
.35 Rem., Rem. 200 grain SP - 2080 fps MV, 1698 at 100 yds.
.357 Mag., Win. 158 grain JSP - 1830 fps MV, 1427 fps at 100 yds.
.44 Mag., Win. 240 grain HSP - 1760 fps MV, 1362 fps at 100 yds.
Velocity, of course, has a big influence on both kinetic energy and trajectory and it is obvious from these figures that the true rifle cartridges have a big advantage in velocity.

Now let's look at the energy of the same loads at the same distances. (Caliber, bullet weight in grains at MV in fps - muzzle energy, energy at 100 yards.)

.30-30, 150 at 2390 - 1902 ft. lbs. ME, 1356 ft. lbs. at 100 yds.
.35 Rem., 200 at 2080 - 1921 ft. lbs. ME, 1280 ft. lbs. at 100 yds.
.357 Mag., 158 at 1830 - 1175 ft. lbs. ME, 715 ft. lbs. at 100 yds.
.44 Mag., 240 at 1760 - 1650 ft. lbs. ME, 966 ft. lbs. at 100 yds.
It seems clear from these numbers that the .30-30 and .35 Rem. deliver much more energy to the target at 100 yards than the revolver cartridges. The advantage runs from about 33% (.35 Rem. vs. .44 Mag.) to 88% (.30-30 vs. .357 Mag.) in favor of the true rifle cartridges.

At longer ranges the advantage of the rifle cartridges is even greater. At 200 yards, for example, the 150 grain .30-30 bullet is still carrying 944 ft. lbs. of kinetic energy, while the 240 grain .44 Magnum bullet (the best of the combination rifle/pistol cartridges) retains only 638 ft. lbs. In fact, the .30-30 hits about as hard at 200 yards as the .44 Mag. does at 100 yards!

 

[Jcalder]

There are exceptions,but averaged with older guns(non 150gr.magnum) a 50/50 of 777 and a 250sst clocks in at 1785 fpi. A 243-100/2950 gives 1933 and a 30-30-150/2390 gives 1903. Those two cartridges are on the low end and the farther the three bullets get from the muzzle the greater the difference becomes. I just didn't want somebody new to muzzle loaders to get the idea you can shoot deer with one and it will flatten them like a 270 or 7 mag. Shot placement for shot placement, muzzle loaders don't kill even close to a centerfire in common deer calibers. They just don't shock a deer's nervous system like the higher velocity bullets do. Three times I have knocked a deer off his feet with a muzzleloader and had them get up and go,I've never had that happen with a centerfire.

my numbers are not from a custom gun and are not magnum charges. I shoot a cva optima v2 with 100gr of blackhorn. Nothing special.


Big or small, kill em all

 

[Jcalder]

But I will agree about the trajectory. Those heavy bullets drop fast


Big or small, kill em all

 

[tsc]

But I will agree about the trajectory. Those heavy bullets drop fast


Big or small, kill em all

The B.C. is hideous on them. The only thing worse is around ball! LOL

 

[GMB54]

I guess that depends on the bullets you choose for your ML.

If you are choosing pistol bullets than thats obvious. They were never intended to be rifle bullets. 45/70 bullets don't exactly shine in the BC department but i can think of a few million examples of them being highly effective killers at long range.

 

[Rubberduck270]

As good as the new guns are,none of them have much more power than a 44 magnum rifle,they are not really a high power weapon and they for sure aren't on par with a centerfire deer caliber rifle,even a 243 makes them look like weaklings.

You smokey boys make me giggle. Carry on...

 

[tsc]

As good as the new guns are,none of them have much more power than a 44 magnum rifle,they are not really a high power weapon and they for sure aren't on par with a centerfire deer caliber rifle,even a 243 makes them look like weaklings.

You smokey boys make me giggle. Carry on...

Yea, you'll be giggling when you center one Saturday at 90 yards and he hunches up and trots off and that's the last you see of him! :rotf: :stir:

 

[Rubberduck270]

I hope to center one at 90 yards Saturday... In the chest... with a 195 gr. Barnes... without a smokeshow... Makes me giggle even harder...

Carry on gentlemen.

 

[tsc]

I hope to center one at 90 yards Saturday... In the chest... with a 195 gr. Barnes... without a smokeshow... Makes me giggle even harder...

Carry on gentlemen.

Turn that 2 into a 1 on the crony and we'll continue this conversation. For me, I'll just hedge my bets and live by the high shoulder shot. :lol:

 

[Headhunter]

I am pushing a 195 gr barnes close to 2300 fps. Clean kill on a nice 8 pointer last year at a distance of (measured with a Leica rangefinder) of 252 yards. He walked about 8 steps and fell over dead. Sorry, but I know I can clean kill to 250 yards or so and it also groups great at that distance.

 

[wayers]

I think something to remember also is muzzys kill from direct damage from the bullet were as hp rifles kill from hydrastatic shock and bullet damage. At least that was what i was told.

 

[tsc]

Ok Ok! I give up! Muzzle loaders and centerfire rifles are indistinguishable except for rate of fire !!! Blast away from here to the horizon! ....now ....who was that guy on here with the wounded deer trailing dog? :super:

 

[Tennessee Lead]

I hope to center one at 90 yards Saturday... In the chest... with a 195 gr. Barnes... without a smokeshow... Makes me giggle even harder...

Carry on gentlemen.

250 grain @ 2100 here [emoji847]


Sent from the barrel of a model 70 at 3300 fps

 

[TboneD]

Good tip on reloading!


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[PillsburyDoughboy]

Well I gotta tell y'all. Most of the BP muzzleloader a are shooting 250'to 300 pills anywhere from 1700 to 2100 FPS and that's nothing to sneeze at.

Bump up your M.z to .458 300 gr rifle bullets and generous amounts of BH209 powder and your pushing close to 45/70 speeds.

Proper shot placement and deer are dead right there.


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[MUP]

Take it to the smokeless forum gentlemen... :rotf: :tu:

 

[TN Song Dog]

The advice on cleaning out all oil and immediately reloading was great for new ML hunters.

 

[Wobblyshot1]

But I will agree about the trajectory. Those heavy bullets drop fast


Big or small, kill em all

The B.C. is hideous on them. The only thing worse is around ball! LOL

Hey now, let's be careful....I know I'm in a minority around here but I've killed probably more deer than my old truck will haul with a round ball. I found out a long time ago that deer don't know a thing about B.C.

 

[GMB54]

Well I gotta tell y'all. Most of the BP muzzleloader a are shooting 250'to 300 pills anywhere from 1700 to 2100 FPS and that's nothing to sneeze at.

Bump up your M.z to .458 300 gr rifle bullets and generous amounts of BH209 powder and your pushing close to 45/70 speeds.

Proper shot placement and deer are dead right there.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Close you say?
My sabotless load with a Sierra 458 300gr or Parker BE is clocking 2100fps+ out of my 10yr+ old Knight 45 with 120gr of BH209. My Knight 52cal beats the Hornady 325gr FTX ammo in MV with 91gr by weight of BH209. I can easily break 1900fps with the Barnes 375gr bullet in the 52cal and 1800fps with a 400gr in my 54cal.

They wont match 45/70 Ruger #1 load data with BH209 but Bestill is pushing a 275gr Parker around 2400fps in his builds. The Bestill boys have been tearing up Friendship with that load.

 

[TboneD]

But I will agree about the trajectory. Those heavy bullets drop fast


Big or small, kill em all

The B.C. is hideous on them. The only thing worse is around ball! LOL

Yes, but big bullets will do a number on critters, even without perfect shot placement. Last five shots I've made on deer with a firearm resulted in five dead deer. The two bucks each took a 385 g 50 cal Hornady Great Plains conical. One only took a few steps and the other ran less than fifty yds. Neither were perfect shots, as both bucks were on the move looking for does. The three does I shot last year all died on the spot after each taking a 200 g 35 cal CoreLockt. Again, not all were perfect shots, either. Anecdotal, I know, but big bullets work great where I hunt, in the woods.


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[tsc]

I've not seen any of these supergun shot deer innards but I have seen a bunch of deer shot with muzzle loaders and have never seen a single one where the heart/lungs poured out like half done jello like you get with a centerfire,Iv'e even seen it with the 30-30. What I've seen alot with muzzle loaders is a little more than double bullet diameter jagged holes through intact lungs etc. Like the other poster said the hydro-static shock just isn't there. Some have looked no worse than if they had been shot with a 4 blade broadhead.

 

[ImThere]

I've not seen any of these supergun shot deer innards but I have seen a bunch of deer shot with muzzle loaders and have never seen a single one where the heart/lungs poured out like half done jello like you get with a centerfire,Iv'e even seen it with the 30-30. What I've seen alot with muzzle loaders is a little more than double bullet diameter jagged holes through intact lungs etc. Like the other poster said the hydro-static shock just isn't there. Some have looked no worse than if they had been shot with a 4 blade broadhead.

So no muzzle loader no archery?

the one and only "ImThere"

 

[GMB54]

300gr SOCOM bullet and 50cal 300gr FTX bullet both at around 1900fps

300gr SOCOM. inards were soup

This was found a few feet behind the deer shot with the SOCOM bullet

185gr out of a 45cal. High shoulder shot dropped it right then. No death run at all. Looked like a bomb went off.

 

[GMB54]

Two ballistic gell blocks shot with a Parker 275gr BE
Before

After