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BSK

Well-Known Member
Joined
Mar 11, 1999
Messages
92,534
City & State/Province
Nashville, TN
Below is some interesting data I've tracked over the years for hunters on my property. It is a measure of "hunter success" at seeing older bucks (2 1/2+) while hunting. I break the data out by "All Hunters" (anyone that hunts that year) versus hunters that spend at least 30 hours of treestand time hunting that year (30+ Hour Hunters). The data is presented in a 3-year running mean format to better display the trends over time.

Many things affect this data, including buck population, buck age structure, hunter experience, stand placements, etc., but "availability of older bucks to see" is a major player. In fact, for the last two data points (2008 and 2009), every hunter that has spent at least 30 hours in a treestand on my place has seen an older buck. I like that kind of improvement over the 20% of the first data point (1988)!

SeeBuckSuccess.jpg
 
Interesting...Im 100% on my land over 3 years. Others not so much. The issue we are having is that all of our older bucks are being seen in the same 1 or 2 spots. Really makes me want to improve the other areas...which is what I am trying to do.
 
Nice Bryan. Just for comparison purposes, I would like to see this data for another farm in your area that has not been managed over the years to see what the "improvement" would have been with ONLY the adjusted regulations per TWRA (11 buck limit reduced to 3 buck, more doe opportunities, etc) and also the voluntary trigger restraint that is now becoming more common amongst TN hunters. Basically like a placebo-controlled study where you can compare "do this" with "do nothing" and see the true "improvement" of the "do this" option. In my example here, the "do this" option would include the habitat management you have administered over the years and the hunter restrictions you and your members abide by (no 1.5s, etc). I realize this data is most likely not available, but it would be nice to have for me to see the true net effect of the "do this" option.
 
Should part of that increase in "older" buck observation rates be attributed to deer management changes of your neighbors?

If I'm thinking correctly, one of your large-acreage neighbors went from mainly harvesting yearling bucks to mainly harvesting antlerless deer during this same time period?

Nice to have good neighbors. :)
 
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Andy S. said:
Nice Bryan. Just for comparison purposes, I would like to see this data for another farm in your area that has not been managed over the years to see what the "improvement" would have been with ONLY the adjusted regulations per TWRA (11 buck limit reduced to 3 buck, more doe opportunities, etc) and also the voluntary trigger restraint that is now becoming more common amongst TN hunters. Basically like a placebo-controlled study where you can compare "do this" with "do nothing" and see the true "improvement" of the "do this" option. In my example here, the "do this" option would include the habitat management you have administered over the years and the hunter restrictions you and your members abide by (no 1.5s, etc). I realize this data is most likely not available, but it would be nice to have for me to see the true net effect of the "do this" option.

Wouldn't it be great if that data were available!? I would love to see a comparison. Unfortunately, those that don't manage, don't collected data. And even those that do collect some data generally don't collect detailed enough data for such an analysis.
 
Wes Parrish said:
Should part of that increase in "older" buck observation rates be attributed to deer management changes of your neighbors?

If I'm thinking correctly, one of your large-acreage neighbors went from mainly harvesting yearling bucks to mainly harvesting antlerless deer during this same time period?

Nice to have good neighbors. :)

I think the difference is a combination of a lot of things, from changes in hunter density in the area (a HUGE difference), to changes in hunter attitudes, to changes in herd structure influenced both by hunter choice and the TWRA's changes in regulations.

In addition, changes in our hunting knowledge and tactics play an important role in this data. For instance, the big decline in percent of hunters seeing 2 1/2 year-old bucks from 1999 to 2002 was due to our stagnation in hunting strategies. We continued to hunt only the ridge-tops. The older deer learned to avoid us by traveling the valleys hence sightings declined even though actual older buck populations were increasing during that time. The big surge upwards in hunter observation success since 2002 has been due mainly to our spreading our hunting locations more evenly across the property. Our continued increase in knowledge of good ridge-and-hollow hardwood hunting techniques is the cause of our increases in older buck sighting success even after a major decline in buck population following the 2006 season.
 
I have personally observed a huge increase in bucks 2.5 and older. I have not conducted a scientific study but 10 years ago I would see one a season on average, and now I see 10 or more per season,
 
BSK - I know this is off of your original posting...but would you expand your comment "increase in knowledge of good ridge-and-hollow hardwood hunting techniques"? I am interested in what you have learned and changed.

Thanks.
 
megalomaniac said:
What's the breakdown on your targeted bucks per hunter? Ie, the 3.5 yr olds and up instead of 2.5 y/o's and up?

The problem is, we don't have any one targeted age. The rule is and always has been "no yearling bucks." And even that is not enforced for a new hunter (we have enough bucks using the property each year to spare a couple of yearlings now and then to a new hunter).

We have hunters that come in for just 3-5 days of hunting and that's it for their entire year--just 3-5 days. They will gladly shoot a 2 1/2 year-old buck. We have some hunters that hunt from the beginning of November through the end of gun season in January that will take a good 2 1/2 or anything 3 1/2+. We have a couple of hunters that hunt the 2 months of firearms season and hold out for 3 1/2+ year-old bucks.

I do look at our sighting rate of 2 1/2+ versus 3 1/2+, but considering the different criteria for most hunters, I still track hunter observational success at the 2 1/2+ mark.

Below is our male deer harvest density for the same time period as the first graph (and in the same 3-year running mean format, so they match). As you can see, we kill a wide range of bucks by age-class, including 2 1/2 year-olds.

BuckHarv3Year.jpg
 
Forcetowork said:
BSK - I know this is off of your original posting...but would you expand your comment "increase in knowledge of good ridge-and-hollow hardwood hunting techniques"? I am interested in what you have learned and changed.

I could go on forever about the little nuances of hunting ridge-and-hollow hardwoods (especially "playing the terrain"), but honestly, the three simple rules we use can be used in most locations and just those three rules can make a hunter much more successful at killing those older hunter-wary deer we are all interested in. Now NOTHING is an absolute, and anyone, including myself, can list exceptions to these rules, but by and large they are very good rules to hunt by:

1) HUNT WHERE NO ONE ELSE HAS BEEN HUNTING

2) HUNT NEAR THICK COVER

3) DON'T OVERHUNT STANDS
 
Forcetowork said:
BSK - I know this is off of your original posting...but would you expand your comment "increase in knowledge of good ridge-and-hollow hardwood hunting techniques"? I am interested in what you have learned and changed.

Thanks.

Forcetowork,

A good book to read is "Mapping Trophy Whitetails". Its about the best book I've seen for ideals on how to hunt hills and hollows.
 
BSK said:
. . . very good rules to hunt by:

1) HUNT WHERE NO ONE ELSE HAS BEEN HUNTING

2) HUNT NEAR THICK COVER

3) DON'T OVERHUNT STANDS

I would rephrase item #1 as

1) HUNT WHERE NO ONE ELSE HAS BEEN HUNTING, and/or RECENTLY "SCOUTING" or OTHERWISE DISTURBING A LOCALIZED AREA BEYOND WHAT THE DEER WOULD CONSIDER ROUTINE NORMAL HUMAN INTRUSIONS FOR A LOCALIZED AREA.

Every notice how some hunters will go hunt a ladder stand, then they have to get down and "scout" all around it? Their "scouting" can disturb that localized area much more than their actual "hunting".
 
If I may expound on those three basic rules:

WITHOUT QUESTION, the simplest technique we've found for increasing our sightings and harvests of older, hunter-wary deer is to analyze where we've been hunting over the last 3-5 years and placing stands in the "gaps" in our hunting pressure. Because we collect such detailed data on our hunting practics, we have important information such as the location of each stand and total hours hunted for each stand, going back many years. Using this data, we can produce a "topographic map" of hunting pressure going back as many years as we want to calculate (and 3 years appears to be adequate). When we see holes in our 3-year cumulative hunting pressure, we place stands in those holes for the upcoming hunting season. And a critical point is, we place at least one stand in each "hole" whether there is buck sign present or not. Often, that area has gone unhunted because their is no buck sign. But buck sign (rubs and scrapes) are communication devices intended to influence other deer. Bucks won't waste the effort to make sign where other deer will not see it. Many mature bucks use travel patterns other deer do not use. As they travel these areas other deer do not use, they will not make sign, hence even areas where a particular buck travels may not have any of his rut sign. The point I'm trying to make is that just because there isn't any buck sign doesn't mean an older buck isn't using the area. If there isn't any buck sign in a given "hole" we are trying to cover, we simply place a stand (or more than one stand) to cover the best terrain pattern we can find in that location.

This pattern also comes back to the rule about not overhunting stands. Although every hunter has experienced a paricular stand that will produce deer sightings--or even rarely, older buck sightings--year after year, those situations are rare. In most situations, hunting a particular stand over and over is the death-knell of that stand for very hunter-wary deer. Unless a hunter is hunting a very remote area, most mature deer have lived to maturity because they have learned how to avoid hunters. And a deer doesn't have to see/smell a hunter while they are on stand to know a hunter is in the area. Our bodies and clothing shed scent constantly. As we sit on a stand, human scent is literally pouring off our bodies and drifting down to the ground. A hunter-wary deer may come by that location that night or even days later, smell that human scent, and learn one more location to avoid at least during daylight in the future. A hunter-wary deer will simply accumulate a mental inventory of places hunters are frequenting and avoid those areas, even if only avoiding them during daylight hours, hence greatly increasing his/her chance of survival. Over-hunting stands is the quickest way to educate deer on how to avoid you.

Lastly, "hunting near cover" is simply a rule we developed after looking at years of observation and harvest data. After placing the harvest location of every older buck we've ever killed onto a habitat map of our property, we noticed a pattern developing. By placing a 100-yard buffer around every patch of good bedding/security cover on the property, we noticed that almost all older buck kill locations fell within these buffers. Although these buffers only cover around 40% of the property, and we are spreading our hunting pressure out across the property, 90+% of our past older buck kills occurred within these buffers. Now this doesn't mean cover habitat is the only thing that matters. We have food plots and hunt near them, and have killed older bucks near food plots. However, the key is finding feeding areas or locations near feeding areas that fall within these cover-habitat buffers. If you are going to hunt feeding patterns, look very carefully for feeding areas that are closest to good cover.
 
Thanks for the clarification BSK. How big (acreage wise) are you calling these "holes"? Or I guess a better way of asking that is in what size blocks do you divide your property.

I have 104 acres and limit hunting pressure a good bit, but my stands have been in same places for 3 years (a big part of this is these are the only areas we have avaliable to hunt.

I am getting two new trails in soon that will open up previously untouchable areas and will move most of my stands next year. I also plan on moving our "best stand" at least 100 yards to try and get on a more recent deer pattern and the pattern I've been seeing bucks moving through.
 
BowGuy84 said:
Thanks for the clarification BSK. How big (acreage wise) are you calling these "holes"? Or I guess a better way of asking that is in what size blocks do you divide your property.

If you are using the "block technique" for monitoring past hunting pressure, I would decrease the size of the blocks for small properties--basically about the average distance-diameter you can see from your stand. If you are hunting thick areas, and you can only see--on average--50 yards from your stand in all directions, then make the blocks about the diameter of your "vision circle"--100 yards on a side.
 
BSK said:
If I may expound on those three basic rules:

WITHOUT QUESTION, the simplest technique we've found for increasing our sightings and harvests of older, hunter-wary deer is to analyze where we've been hunting over the last 3-5 years and placing stands in the "gaps" in our hunting pressure. Because we collect such detailed data on our hunting practics, we have important information such as the location of each stand and total hours hunted for each stand, going back many years. Using this data, we can produce a "topographic map" of hunting pressure going back as many years as we want to calculate (and 3 years appears to be adequate). When we see holes in our 3-year cumulative hunting pressure, we place stands in those holes for the upcoming hunting season. And a critical point is, we place at least one stand in each "hole" whether there is buck sign present or not. Often, that area has gone unhunted because their is no buck sign. But buck sign (rubs and scrapes) are communication devices intended to influence other deer. Bucks won't waste the effort to make sign where other deer will not see it. Many mature bucks use travel patterns other deer do not use. As they travel these areas other deer do not use, they will not make sign, hence even areas where a particular buck travels may not have any of his rut sign. The point I'm trying to make is that just because there isn't any buck sign doesn't mean an older buck isn't using the area. If there isn't any buck sign in a given "hole" we are trying to cover, we simply place a stand (or more than one stand) to cover the best terrain pattern we can find in that location.

This pattern also comes back to the rule about not overhunting stands. Although every hunter has experienced a paricular stand that will produce deer sightings--or even rarely, older buck sightings--year after year, those situations are rare. In most situations, hunting a particular stand over and over is the death-knell of that stand for very hunter-wary deer. Unless a hunter is hunting a very remote area, most mature deer have lived to maturity because they have learned how to avoid hunters. And a deer doesn't have to see/smell a hunter while they are on stand to know a hunter is in the area. Our bodies and clothing shed scent constantly. As we sit on a stand, human scent is literally pouring off our bodies and drifting down to the ground. A hunter-wary deer may come by that location that night or even days later, smell that human scent, and learn one more location to avoid at least during daylight in the future. A hunter-wary deer will simply accumulate a mental inventory of places hunters are frequenting and avoid those areas, even if only avoiding them during daylight hours, hence greatly increasing his/her chance of survival. Over-hunting stands is the quickest way to educate deer on how to avoid you.

Lastly, "hunting near cover" is simply a rule we developed after looking at years of observation and harvest data. After placing the harvest location of every older buck we've ever killed onto a habitat map of our property, we noticed a pattern developing. By placing a 100-yard buffer around every patch of good bedding/security cover on the property, we noticed that almost all older buck kill locations fell within these buffers. Although these buffers only cover around 40% of the property, and we are spreading our hunting pressure out across the property, 90+% of our past older buck kills occurred within these buffers. Now this doesn't mean cover habitat is the only thing that matters. We have food plots and hunt near them, and have killed older bucks near food plots. However, the key is finding feeding areas or locations near feeding areas that fall within these cover-habitat buffers. If you are going to hunt feeding patterns, look very carefully for feeding areas that are closest to good cover.

I thought a lot about this (the 3 year rule) today while scouting. Let me throw out a hypothetical situation:

I have 12 stand locations. I get to hunt 12 times each season. Am I better of to hunt each stand location once every season

OR

Hunt 4 stand locations three times each season. Always letting each stand rest for at least 2 weeks before hunting it again. Stands would be rotated so that the 4 stands hunted this season are not hunted the next.

Basically, which approach has less of an impact, hunting stands more than once and then not hunting them for two seasons or hunting stands once each season?
 
Great question WMAn, and one I don't have an answer to. All my analyses have been run on "cumulative hunting hours." I would need to reanalyze the data by "average hunting hours per year," or even "maximum hunting hours per year" to see if there are differences.

But personally, I tend to go towards spreading out my hunting pressure as much as possible--across as many locations as possible. The data is quite clear that the best odds of taking a good buck occur the first time a stand is hunted. That doesn't mean a good buck can't be taken on subsequent hunts, but the odds go down each time the stand is hunted.
 
WMAn said:
BSK said:
If I may expound on those three basic rules:

WITHOUT QUESTION, the simplest technique we've found for increasing our sightings and harvests of older, hunter-wary deer is to analyze where we've been hunting over the last 3-5 years and placing stands in the "gaps" in our hunting pressure. Because we collect such detailed data on our hunting practics, we have important information such as the location of each stand and total hours hunted for each stand, going back many years. Using this data, we can produce a "topographic map" of hunting pressure going back as many years as we want to calculate (and 3 years appears to be adequate). When we see holes in our 3-year cumulative hunting pressure, we place stands in those holes for the upcoming hunting season. And a critical point is, we place at least one stand in each "hole" whether there is buck sign present or not. Often, that area has gone unhunted because their is no buck sign. But buck sign (rubs and scrapes) are communication devices intended to influence other deer. Bucks won't waste the effort to make sign where other deer will not see it. Many mature bucks use travel patterns other deer do not use. As they travel these areas other deer do not use, they will not make sign, hence even areas where a particular buck travels may not have any of his rut sign. The point I'm trying to make is that just because there isn't any buck sign doesn't mean an older buck isn't using the area. If there isn't any buck sign in a given "hole" we are trying to cover, we simply place a stand (or more than one stand) to cover the best terrain pattern we can find in that location.

This pattern also comes back to the rule about not overhunting stands. Although every hunter has experienced a paricular stand that will produce deer sightings--or even rarely, older buck sightings--year after year, those situations are rare. In most situations, hunting a particular stand over and over is the death-knell of that stand for very hunter-wary deer. Unless a hunter is hunting a very remote area, most mature deer have lived to maturity because they have learned how to avoid hunters. And a deer doesn't have to see/smell a hunter while they are on stand to know a hunter is in the area. Our bodies and clothing shed scent constantly. As we sit on a stand, human scent is literally pouring off our bodies and drifting down to the ground. A hunter-wary deer may come by that location that night or even days later, smell that human scent, and learn one more location to avoid at least during daylight in the future. A hunter-wary deer will simply accumulate a mental inventory of places hunters are frequenting and avoid those areas, even if only avoiding them during daylight hours, hence greatly increasing his/her chance of survival. Over-hunting stands is the quickest way to educate deer on how to avoid you.

Lastly, "hunting near cover" is simply a rule we developed after looking at years of observation and harvest data. After placing the harvest location of every older buck we've ever killed onto a habitat map of our property, we noticed a pattern developing. By placing a 100-yard buffer around every patch of good bedding/security cover on the property, we noticed that almost all older buck kill locations fell within these buffers. Although these buffers only cover around 40% of the property, and we are spreading our hunting pressure out across the property, 90+% of our past older buck kills occurred within these buffers. Now this doesn't mean cover habitat is the only thing that matters. We have food plots and hunt near them, and have killed older bucks near food plots. However, the key is finding feeding areas or locations near feeding areas that fall within these cover-habitat buffers. If you are going to hunt feeding patterns, look very carefully for feeding areas that are closest to good cover.

I thought a lot about this (the 3 year rule) today while scouting. Let me throw out a hypothetical situation:

I have 12 stand locations. I get to hunt 12 times each season. Am I better of to hunt each stand location once every season

OR

Hunt 4 stand locations three times each season. Always letting each stand rest for at least 2 weeks before hunting it again. Stands would be rotated so that the 4 stands hunted this season are not hunted the next.

Basically, which approach has less of an impact, hunting stands more than once and then not hunting them for two seasons or hunting stands once each season?


low impact is good. Hunt the best locations when the wind permits. Hunting stands in non productive areas just for the sake of hunting a different location is, well, unproductive.
 
Hillbilly Hunter said:
Hunt the best locations when the wind permits. Hunting stands in non productive areas just for the sake of hunting a different location is, well, unproductive.

How do you know they're unproductive until you hunt them?
 
I am assuming the person has hunted the farm before. If it is a new piece of property, you don't. You can weed out the unproductive sites as time goes by, therefore you should be more productive in the stands you have left. I had rather have 10 good stand sites than 100 stand sites put up at random. Terrain and cover plays a huge part in stand selection.
 
All very true Hillbilly Hunter. But never forget that deer will react to hunting pressure by avoiding it. That--over time--can turn what were unproductive sites into productive sites. An area that does not see much natural deer movement can suddenly see quite a bit of "hunting pressure induced" deer movement.
 

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