Herd Ratio

[8 POINTS OR BETTER]

Last week I started a thread about buck expectations per age class on my farm.

From that discussion I have more questions. From my camera surveys from the last four years my buck to doe ratio has been around 1 to 2.5. But I have made it a point to make sure a equal amount of buck and does have been taken from the farm. So in theory by now I should be getting close to a 1 to 1 ratio.

My first question, why has my ratio not improved?

My second question is(I know there are a lot of variables), but how many does am I going to have to kill for my ratio to start to show some improvement?

 

[BSK]

Unfortunately, many who manage their lands--especially manage the habitat--find out some very unfortunate facts once they start attempting to manipulate the deer population:

1) Deer will shift ranges from one year ot the next to access better resources.

2) In summer, does are often dominant over bucks. It is more important for the survival of the entire species that the young (fawns) and the young rearers (their mothers) have access to the best habitat to maximize fawn production and survival.

What this can mean to the small-land manager is that their "improved habitat" turns into a doe sink. The more does they shoot, the more does fill in the gaps from surround areas by the following year. And those does can dominate bucks right off the property during the summer, producing a continuously skewed sex ratio.

And there's nothing you can do about it.

I would be far more interested what the adult sex ratio is during the breeding month--November or December (whenever it is locally). By the breeding period, does have stopped dominating bucks away, letting them filter back into the property for breeding purposes. And with the expanding ranges of bucks, many more bucks than normal will be crossing the property. Now this isn't a permanent improvement in sex ratio, but it is a real improvement is sex ratio when it really matters biologically--around the rut.

 

[8 POINTS OR BETTER]

I would be far more interested what the adult sex ratio is during the breeding month

Would setting the cameras up on scrapes give me an accurate survey during the rut, or would setting up on scrapes sway the ratio toward bucks? Do does use the scrapes just as much as bucks?

 

[BSK]

That's a great question 8 POINTS OR BETTER.

Now I certainly collect camera data aver a long period of time and use all of it. But I'm most interested in the camera data surrounding the rut. With a mid-November peak of breeding in my area, I'm going to most closely focus on the data from mid-October to mid-December.

As for camera placement, the whole point of a "baited camera site" is to concentrate deer in front of the camera. Considering the legal issues and often lack of effectiveness of food or salt-based bait during the season (and especially around the rut as bucks do little feeding during the rut), you must look for other things that will "concentrate" deer in front of the camera. These features can be anything from scrapes to trails to old overgrown logging roads to bedding cover to food sources--both planted and natural--or even something as simple as a gap or low spot in a fence. Basically, anything that concentrates deer activity.

But what is most critical about choosing these locations--and assessing the data you get from them--is realizing different contentration features will be used differentially by the two sexes. For example, even if you had a perfectly balanced sex ratio, cameras pointed over scrapes will pick up far more buck pictures than doe pictures. Scrapes are a male-dominated feature. Cameras pointed over food sources--both planted and natural--will be dominated by does and fawns, as they will often feed in the same location day after day while bucks spread their feeding patterns out more; i.e. feed at this spot today, another spot tomorrow, a third spot the following day.

Although I use every concentration point I can think of for collecting data, I analyze this data separately. I look at the numbers I get from scrapes alone. I look at the numbers I get from food sources alone. I look at the data I get from trails and logging roads alone. And the real value of this data is not the actual numbers generated for a paticular year/feature, but the tends over time from each feature. Are the numbers generated at scrapes changing from year to year? Are the numbers generated from cameras pointed into food plots changing from year to year?

And since someone will ask, I seem to get the best sex ratio numbers from trail/logging road data. I get the best buck age structure data from scrapes. I get the best fawn recruitment numbers for cameras over food sources.

 

[Football Hunter]

Unfortunately, many who manage their lands--especially manage the habitat--find out some very unfortunate facts once they start attempting to manipulate the deer population:

1) Deer will shift ranges from one year ot the next to access better resources.

2) In summer, does are often dominant over bucks. It is more important for the survival of the entire species that the young (fawns) and the young rearers (their mothers) have access to the best habitat to maximize fawn production and survival.

What this can mean to the small-land manager is that their "improved habitat" turns into a doe sink. The more does they shoot, the more does fill in the gaps from surround areas by the following year. And those does can dominate bucks right off the property during the summer, producing a continuously skewed sex ratio.

And there's nothing you can do about it.

I would be far more interested what the adult sex ratio is during the breeding month--November or December (whenever it is locally). By the breeding period, does have stopped dominating bucks away, letting them filter back into the property for breeding purposes. And with the expanding ranges of bucks, many more bucks than normal will be crossing the property. Now this isn't a permanent improvement in sex ratio, but it is a real improvement is sex ratio when it really matters biologically--around the rut.

So,BSK,is there no real point in really trying hard to lower the doe population on my 65 acres in Perry county.Should I just keep the harvest about even?Not unit L anyway.Maybe take does 3-1 ,especially since I dont figure on being to hard on the bucks anyway.If I killed 2 I would be very happy,since I am looking for bigger/older bucks.

 

[BSK]

So,BSK,is there no real point in really trying hard to lower the doe population on my 65 acres in Perry county.Should I just keep the harvest about even?Not unit L anyway.Maybe take does 3-1 ,especially since I dont figure on being to hard on the bucks anyway.If I killed 2 I would be very happy,since I am looking for bigger/older bucks.

I know this is going to sound like blasphemy from a QDMer, but if you have much better habitat on your 65 acres than on surrounding properties I would take at least as many does as you do bucks, and then take as many extra does as you want to take but I wouldn't go to great lengths to shoot a lot of does. That can really take the fun out of hunting as well as tend to drive the does nocturnal (which makes hunting less fun). Besides, you're not going to make a big dent in the does, as new does will fill the gaps by next year.

The only time I would make great efforts to shoot a lot of does is if the habitat is displaying signs of heavy over-browsing (a browse line begins to form).

 

[Football Hunter]

Wonder what NOT being in unit L tells me,Im surrounded by unit L.I guess it is more local,meaning number of does,than county status being unit L or not.As far as habitat goes,I do have a 5 acre thicket,you can hardly walk thru it in Feb/March.Rest of it is just regular woods.Gonna work on doing some cutting in the hollows after the season to thicken them up.But,I do have the only food plots,5 of them that I know of around.An aerial view shows nothing but woods for hundreds,if not thousands, of acres on my east and south,with the Buffalo river being my west border.So.....I am guessing I will pull a lot of deer in late season.Maybe,every white oak Ice seen is LOADED,so Im thinking they will be eating and laying a lot.

 

[8 POINTS OR BETTER]

Unfortunately, many who manage their lands--especially manage the habitat--find out some very unfortunate facts once they start attempting to manipulate the deer population:

1) Deer will shift ranges from one year ot the next to access better resources.

2) In summer, does are often dominant over bucks. It is more important for the survival of the entire species that the young (fawns) and the young rearers (their mothers) have access to the best habitat to maximize fawn production and survival.

What this can mean to the small-land manager is that their "improved habitat" turns into a doe sink. The more does they shoot, the more does fill in the gaps from surround areas by the following year. And those does can dominate bucks right off the property during the summer, producing a continuously skewed sex ratio.

And there's nothing you can do about it.

I would be far more interested what the adult sex ratio is during the breeding month--November or December (whenever it is locally). By the breeding period, does have stopped dominating bucks away, letting them filter back into the property for breeding purposes. And with the expanding ranges of bucks, many more bucks than normal will be crossing the property. Now this isn't a permanent improvement in sex ratio, but it is a real improvement is sex ratio when it really matters biologically--around the rut.

BSK,
There has been several studies of seasonal shift buck movements in the last few years. Do you know of any that studied doe movements during the rut (seasonal shift). How accurate of a buck to doe ratio would a person get if they used the doe photos taken during late summer and buck photos taken during per rut and rut.

 

[BSK]

BSK,
There has been several studies of seasonal shift buck movements in the last few years. Do you know of any that studied doe movements during the rut (seasonal shift). How accurate of a buck to doe ratio would a person get if they used the doe photos taken during late summer and buck photos taken during per rut and rut.

Yes, there have been some studies on does, and those studies found that doe social groups also have seasonal ranges within their annual range. However, the seasonal range-shifts of doe groups are generally not as dramatic (not as far) as bucks often display. The primary time that does will show dramatic shifts is during the fawning season when individual does have been documented traveling many miles to find a fawning territory.

The most common seasonal range-shifts I see in doe groups is where large areas of hardwoods meet a major agricultural area, such as a large river bottomland planted in crops surrounded by hardwood hills. Doe social groups often spend the majority of their time in and directly adjacent to the agricultural fields in the bottomlands during spring and summer. However, in a good acorn year, once acorns begin to fall in late September and early October, these doe social units shift up into the hills to access the acorn crop, complete leaving their spring/summer seasonal range encompassing the agricultural fields.

 

[BSK]

Although there are some problems assuming the does you have in summer are the same does you have in fall (some seasonal range-shifting) it would be true that the does you have in summer are more likely to be the same does you have in fall than assuming the same thing about bucks.

 

[Winchester]

I agree with BSK, if your in a high deer density area and you have good habitat and food, killing enough does is a no win situation. We learned this the hard way, after killing 50 does a year for 5 years in a row on 600 acres, we had as many or more does the last year as we did the first year.