Drone Heard survey

Shooter77

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I found this guy on youtube that was using thermal imagining drones to recover deer. He just posted a video of using it to do heard sizes on properties. He flyes around, counts the numbers of bucks & does he sees and give you the buck/doe ratio and # on the property. What is everyone's thoughts?

 

BSK

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I found this guy on youtube that was using thermal imagining drones to recover deer. He just posted a video of using it to do heard sizes on properties. He flyes around, counts the numbers of bucks & does he sees and give you the buck/doe ratio and # on the property. What is everyone's thoughts?


First, I would question the accuracy of the counts. When is he doing this survey? Thermal imaging won't be able to determine buck from doe once velvet is off. Antlers do not produce a heat signature. Second, these numbers - even if accurate for that survey - will only give you a snapshot-in-time number. Deer move around a lot over the course of days, weeks, months. That's why I run season-long camera surveys to find out what deer are using a property during the entire deer season.

Censusing local deer populations with FLIR was all the rage for a while. Then it was realized this technology doesn't work well in forested habitat and can't tell you much about the deer population. Plus, it is just a single day event. Again, those numbers aren't going to be that helpful from a management perspective.
 

Shooter77

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First, I would question the accuracy of the counts. When is he doing this survey? Thermal imaging won't be able to determine buck from doe once velvet is off. Antlers do not produce a heat signature. Second, these numbers - even if accurate for that survey - will only give you a snapshot-in-time number. Deer move around a lot over the course of days, weeks, months. That's why I run season-long camera surveys to find out what deer are using a property during the entire deer season.

Censusing local deer populations with FLIR was all the rage for a while. Then it was realized this technology doesn't work well in forested habitat and can't tell you much about the deer population. Plus, it is just a single day event. Again, those numbers aren't going to be that helpful from a management perspective.
He has high def cams that he can zoom into the deer. you can count the points on the bucks in the video.
 

BSK

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Watched the video. First, that technology will not work if you have young pine plantations where there is a complete visual canopy. Second, it can only be done after total leaf-fall which limits it's value. Third, I seriously doubt they would be able to see deer is very thick cover. Lastly, again, it's a single day census. Deer move around a lot. Some deer may only cross a property once every 4 or 5 days, but they are still huntable, manageable deer. During the rut, bucks may be covering thousands of acres. What are the odds he's on the small censused property at the exact time they are running the aerial census?

Interesting, but a "game changer" for management? Absolutely not. Nowhere near as useful as a properly run long-term camera census.

Now when it comes to finding where you're deer bed during mid-day (or any time of day), THAT is somewhat of a gamechanger.
 

Ski

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Pretty neat. I'd sure consider calling one in if I needed help finding a shot deer. But I doubt doing a single survey would offer much in the way of offering a comprehensive, accurate assessment of herd population and sex ratio.

If you could do a survey say twice per week all season long, to include all weather patterns and time of day then you'd have some invaluable data from which to draw some trustworthy conclusions. If the drone isn't yours that could be a very, very expensive survey that I'm not confident would tell you more than a few well placed trail cams could.

That said, I do think there's yet to be seen useful tasks for that technology. I'd guess we'll be seeing more of it in the future.
 

BSK

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Pretty neat. I'd sure consider calling one in if I needed help finding a shot deer. But I doubt doing a single survey would offer much in the way of offering a comprehensive, accurate assessment of herd population and sex ratio.

If you could do a survey say twice per week all season long, to include all weather patterns and time of day then you'd have some invaluable data from which to draw some trustworthy conclusions. If the drone isn't yours that could be a very, very expensive survey that I'm not confident would tell you more than a few well placed trail cams could.

That said, I do think there's yet to be seen useful tasks for that technology. I'd guess we'll be seeing more of it in the future.
Agreed.
 

TheLBLman

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Note all the references to "a property".

Most "properties" only entail a small portion of any particular deer's range.
And, a particular deer may be only present on a particular property an average of 1 day weekly, or maybe only "seasonally".

Referring to most any "property" (without much more description)
is like implying all "8-pointers" are more similar than different.

First, that technology will not work if you have young pine plantations where there is a complete visual canopy. . . . . Lastly . . . it's a single day census. Deer move around a lot. . . . . During the rut, bucks may be covering thousands of acres. What are the odds he's on the small censused property at the exact time they are running the aerial census?

Interesting, but a "game changer" for management? Absolutely not. Nowhere near as useful as a properly run long-term camera census.
THIS!
 

Shooter77

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BSK said:
First, that technology will not work if you have young pine plantations where there is a complete visual canopy. . . . . Lastly . . . it's a single day census. Deer move around a lot. . . . . During the rut, bucks may be covering thousands of acres. What are the odds he's on the small censused property at the exact time they are running the aerial census?

Interesting, but a "game changer" for management? Absolutely not. Nowhere near as useful as a properly run long-term camera census.


THIS!
Could you explain a properly run long-term camera census? From stuff I've read with QDMA, it has pouring corn out over a 2 week period in front of cams to calculator the heard.

I think this drone method would be great if you could do this on a weekly basis over the season.
 

Ski

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From stuff I've read with QDMA, it has pouring corn out over a 2 week period in front of cams to calculator the heard.

IMO, that's nonsense. I've tried that and what I found was that the corn attracts deer that do not typically spend time on the property, and when the corn is gone they are gone. If you have a large property then perhaps it's a viable method. But for most of us with smaller acreage it doesn't seem to work quite the same way. You might be counting every deer in the neighborhood, not just the ones who prefer your place, and that will give you a false representation of your specific property.

I run cams year round on food areas, pinch points, trails that intersect property lines, mock scrapes, mineral sites, etc. Very few deer move through my place without my knowing, and none spend enough time on my place that I could reasonably hunt without me knowing.

In most cases I catch a particular deer on multiple cameras every day it's on my property. Over time I can gauge how often a deer is on property, how long, preferred time of day, where it comes from, where it's going, the other deer it travels with, etc. It's pretty easy to extrapolate sex ratios and age structure once you've accumulated enough info. Not only that but you also learn how effective your habitat enhancements are or are not. What I've found is that the herd is always in a state of ebbs & flows. Certain deer shift in and out depending on season and preferred food. Does usually tend to be homebodies so they offer a static, stable platform to start monitoring. Bucks tend to be nomadic so bucks you have today may be somebody else's bucks tomorrow while you get theirs, and so on. IMO getting a sex ratio census is a basic elementary function of cameras if you collect & organize the data. It's all the extra behavioral stuff I never expected that makes me appreciate cameras.

For reference, I run a camera at every mock scrape, stand site, food plot, water hole, mineral site, etc. Sometimes multiple cameras on plots, depending on size and shape. I also run cameras on a lot of rail intersections, creek crossings, or other congregation/pinch points. On one 100acre property I'm running 14 cameras. But on an 80acre farm I'm only running 3 because the majority of the acreage is cattle pasture. On another 150acre place I run 12 cams. It all depends on the property layout and habitat features.
 
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My son in law has a drone, and while i think it is awesome, the deer have a much lower tolerance for it than i would expect. I have a hard time believing they could be effective used the way the video suggests.

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Shooter77

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My son in law has a drone, and while i think it is awesome, the deer have a much lower tolerance for it than i would expect. I have a hard time believing they could be effective used the way the video suggests.
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I think this guys drone flies pretty high and doesn't seem to make as much noise as some i've heard. I just seen on Bill Winkle (Old Midwest whitetail) that he's been using a drone to bust deer out of his plots in the PM so he can exit his blinds. The one he shown, made that high wine from the blades.
 

BSK

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Could you explain a properly run long-term camera census? From stuff I've read with QDMA, it has pouring corn out over a 2 week period in front of cams to calculator the heard.
That was the original baited census technique, developed by Dr. Jacobson and first published at the 1999 Southeast Deer Study Group. For a while, that was the technique for camera censusing deer populations. However, three problems were found with this technique. First, some deer won't come to corn piles. I first started noticing this while censusing individual properties. I was getting a few older bucks only in the background and never at the corn. Eventually I sent up a test where I ran two censuses concurrently on the same property, one with corn piles and the other salt licks. I found that the corn piles never got a buck older than 2 1/2, while the salt licks were getting mature bucks. In areas where deer are being baited during hunting season, older bucks learn to avoid them like the plague.

A second problem was the calculations. Because unique does cannot be identified on camera, but bucks can (by their antler characteristics), a repeat photograph calculation is used to estimate the number of unique does. The assumption is that bucks and does will be repeat photographed at about the same rate. With this being the case, the number of unique does can be calculated using the repeat photograph rate of bucks. For example, if you have 80 buck photographs, but you have only identified 10 unique bucks in those 80 photographs, the repeat photograph rate is 8 [total buck photographs / unique bucks = repeat photograph rate]. The total number of doe photographs can then be divided by 8 to get an estimated number of unique does in the population. The same is done for fawns. However, tests with marked does found that does stay at the bait sites much longer than bucks, producing far more repeat photographs per unique doe. This throws the calculations way off, suggesting you have far more does than you really have.

The third problem - and a MAJOR problem - is seasonal range-shifting. Baited censuses are run in August, when bucks' antlers are nearly finished growing (making them more identifiable), but before the first acorns begin to fall (which draws deer away from the bait piles). But what if the local deer shift ranges dramatically from summer to fall? This is especially a problem when censusing smaller properties. The baited census gets an accurate census of the bucks using the property in August, but the hunting season buck population may be very, very different as bucks shift ranges summer to fall, as well as during the rut. In some situations, MANY more bucks may use a property during hunting season than were using it during an August baited census. In addition, some of those bucks using the property during the summer baited census may have shifted miles away by hunting season, hence are not huntable, manageable bucks.

To try and solve these problems, especially the last one, I started working on a new census technique many years ago (the Fall of '99 to be exact). For lack of a better term, I just called it the "season-long unbaited census." Although I've never published my data, talking about it here on TNdeer and the QDMA's talk forum sort of "spread the idea around." The season-long unbaited census still works like the 2-week baited census except that no bait is used to draw deer in front of the camera, and the census is run all hunting season. And running the census all hunting season is critically important. The point of the census is to inventory the bucks that are huntable and manageable, which means ALL the bucks using the property during the entire hunting season. Now, without question, there are some real difficulties associated with a season-long unbaited census. First, it requires running cameras over a long period of time (labor, batteries, etc.). Second, it requires more cameras because you are not using bait to draw deer in front of the camera. I found that with a baited census using salt licks, I could get a good late summer census with just one camera per 160 acres (four per square mile). However, I needed to double the camera density to get a good unbaited census (1 per 80 acres). And even more than that is better. In addition, a strong understanding of what habitat and terrain features concentrate deer movement in the area is needed. Because bait is not used to draw deer in front of the camera, any other natural feature that concentrates deer movement (food, habitat, terrain, scrapes, trails, etc.) must be used to maximize pictures. In his post, Ski gave some great examples of where to place cameras. Lastly, some of the same problems with the baited census calculations still exist with the season-long unbaited census. For example, in some areas does will frequent food plots more frequently and for longer periods of time than bucks will. This produces skewed sex ratio numbers in favor of females. On the flip side, bucks usually frequent scrapes more often than does, producing skewed sex ratio numbers in favor of bucks. When collecting and analyzing the data, I calculate each herd parameter (sex ratio and fawn recruitment rate) by camera set-up type. This allows me to see any "weird" numbers that aren't lining up. For example, over the years, as my food plot work has become more efficient, producing better fall food plots, the sex ratio calculations from cameras pointed into food plots has become more and more skewed towards females. However, sex ratio calculations for other camera set-ups have not. This lets me know to take the sex ratio data from food plots with a huge grain of salt. In fact, I graph "total sex ratio" data from all locations AND sex ratio calculations from all non-food plot cameras separately, so I can see the difference. The below graph is a prime example. It is a graph of the adult sex ratio (Does/Buck) comparing the 4 most common camera locations I use. Notice how the "Food Plot" and "Scrape/Food Plot" show climbing numbers of does, but the other two camera set-ups do not. That is an indication the food plots are drawing more does for longer periods of time, not that the sex ratio is actually changing.
 

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Ski

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However, tests with marked does found that does stay at the bait sites much longer than bucks, producing far more repeat photographs per unique doe. This throws the calculations way off, suggesting you have far more does than you really have.

That is one of the major reasons I don't like the bait census. Not only does it congregate does to one spot, but also attracts does from surrounding areas that otherwise would be on your property if not for the bait. I find that by having several cams set up a various spots around the property I actually can identify individual does because a doe will associate with her immediate family group. Getting a pic of a singular doe is impossible to identify. But getting a pic of say 2 adult does & 3 fawns together makes it identifiable because you always see them together, year round except for during rut when she separates for breeding and/or chases away buck fawns & yearlings. Only in large plots do I see doe groups co-mingle, and it's only in the evenings. I often sit and watch family groups come out into the field in the evening and greet one another like a family reunion. Fawns run & play with their friends and does eat together. I only see that in the evening right before dark. Otherwise family groups stay to themselves and bed in their own respective areas. With a baited census you'd never see that activity and wouldn't be able to differentiate one doe from the next.

As for bucks, I never count the drifters. In order for me to count a buck, I have to have enough pics/vids of him to recognize. In other words, his core has to overlap my property in some capacity to allow somewhat regular captures. With most bucks it's seasonal and often it's only a year or two and sporadic. With other bucks I know my property is the center of their core because I catch them regularly and all times of day & night year round. Does are pretty static. Bucks tend to be a wild card. I always get random pics of bucks that I've never seen before & never see again. I don't count those toward the sex ratio. If I did it would distort the accuracy of the census making it seem like I have more bucks than I actually do.
 

BSK

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As for bucks, I never count the drifters. In order for me to count a buck, I have to have enough pics/vids of him to recognize. In other words, his core has to overlap my property in some capacity to allow somewhat regular captures. With most bucks it's seasonal and often it's only a year or two and sporadic. With other bucks I know my property is the center of their core because I catch them regularly and all times of day & night year round. Does are pretty static. Bucks tend to be a wild card. I always get random pics of bucks that I've never seen before & never see again. I don't count those toward the sex ratio. If I did it would distort the accuracy of the census making it seem like I have more bucks than I actually do.
However you collect your data, just be consistent over time. It isn't the exact numbers that are important, it is the trends over time. I honestly don't know what my exact sex ratio is (and it probably changes day to day), but I know that when the number is "X," hunting and social dynamics are best. When the number gets above or below "X", things go downhill. Doesn't matter if "X" is the actual sex ratio or not. "X" is just a benchmark number to evaluate against.
 

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