Does removing an old buck improve retention?

[Boll Weevil]

I've been following a thread over on the QDMA site that really has me interested in what others have seen (in the field) or what research might exist. I'd like to discuss it here to perhaps get a better feel for what might be happening in TN, North MS/AL, and southern KY (vs. all over the US/Canada).

For context and to get the discussion going, here are a couple of quotes from the thread:

1) Social pressure is perhaps the most ignored and significant stressor in bucks' lives. When you get to goal, the grass is almost always going to be greener on the other side of the fence for a share of the 3.5s coming up. After all, you have competition that they can't overcome, where as the neighbors have less or none that a 3.5 driven to be dominant can't overcome.

2) When you can really see the "success" or failure is generally a couple weeks before the rut kicks in. That's one of the highest risk periods for emigration/bucks shifting core areas, as bucks are starting to really fight for their position in the buck hierarchy. Once at goal, those 3.5 yr old up and comers that desperately want to dominate a niche of their own often are getting their butts handed to them by the big boys and appear to get sick of getting pushed around, but refuse to be submissive. If you don't have an open slot, they're at a very high risk of being gone.

So then, is this how it really happens? A bunch of "ifs" I know but if one manages enough ground and can confirm some level of success at improving buck age structure, can removing an older/dominant 4, 5, 6 year old deer make room for an up-and-comer 3 year old or are they just bound to leave because it's in their nature?

I'm going somewhere with this so just humor me for a bit would'ya?

Any thoughts on this?

 

[DaveB]

Re: Does removeing an old buck improve retention?

It would improve retention for one buck, anyway. The retention you are looking for is never gonna happen. Deer roam even if there is no 'dominant' buck.

 

[Jmed]

Re: Does removeing an old buck improve retention?

Of course it would help, but just because you have a 4,5, or 6 year old buck on your farm, doesnt mean you will be able to kill it

 

[BHC]

Re: Does removeing an old buck improve retention?

I'm not really sure where your going here. But for our property, I do believe we've improved age structure and buck doe ratio. What I see I most deer stay no matter the case. I have trail cam video of 3 yr olds fighting 6 yr olds in scrapes... However it is very easy to identify the most dominant buck in the heard with cameras deer step to the side when he approaches, and he always holds his head a little higher. I do not see this territorial type behavior tho.. They all know there place in the hierarchy. Sometimes a lower ranking buck may challenge a more dominant buck, however I don't believe they push each other out of the area. For instance I have a particular video of a 3 yr 8pt fighting a known 5-6 yr old very dominant buck. This video was at a scrape in 2012, that particular dominant buck was killed, and the next yr I was getting that same buck now 4 yrs old in the same scrape... Along with other deer.. I feel that they have a social status that generally improves over time, but they know that status and accept it. Sometimes they may attempt to improve it. But don't pack up and leave when they can't...

 

[Boll Weevil]

Re: Does removeing an old buck improve retention?

This video was at a scrape in 2012, that particular dominant buck was killed, and the next yr I was getting that same buck now 4 yrs old in the same scrape... Along with other deer.

Thanks BHC. This is the exact reason I asked but wasn't sure if what I was reading on that particualar QDMA thread had any shred of validity whatsoever. For the first time, think I may be seeing this (cameras) in the exact area where an old, ornery, scarred up, bully of a deer was killed last muzzleoader season. 3-4 deer at a mineral site...bully comes into the frame with ears laid back and they scatter.

I have numerous pics of a 3yr old with incredible potential in 2012, a single pic last year, and then he left. I pulled the card last week and whaddya know...he's back as a 5yr old. When I read the discussion about bucks in that 3, 4, 5 yr old range possibly getting tired of being pushed around my immediate thought is that may be what happened here. Don't know for sure of course, but was curious as to what others in the area had experienced.

When that deer you mentioned above was removed on your place, did the other one move into that "dominant slot" or was he just glad to not be dealing with stress anymore?

 

[Boll Weevil]

Re: Does removeing an old buck improve retention?

just because you have a 4,5, or 6 year old buck on your farm, doesnt mean you will be able to kill it

Agree 100%.

 

[BHC]

Re: Does removeing an old buck improve retention?

Boil weevil, I don't think that particular buck became the most dominant buck in that area, even the following yr as a 4 yr old, I don't believe he was.
However on this topic, I believe young bucks stress out mature bucks, as much as mature bucks stress young bucks... They are trying to maintain their status just as younger bucks may be trying to advance... I also believe that in many cases their are more than one mature buck equally dominant...
The rut is just a stressful time for all deer bucks & does, young & old...
That's the case for all animals tho.. Watch a male dog around a female in heat.. He will not eat, he pants constantly, and just extremely anxious.. Even with out another male...

Most does are bred in about a 10 day period.. And a buck will tend a doe for 48 hrs... So no one buck breeds most of the does, not even the most dominant buck. It's just not possible. This is opposite of what you see in elk, or pack animals like dogs... So even if a younger buck gets his tail whooped because he challenged a more dominant buck, once the fight is over both really still have an equal opportunity to breed...

 

[BSK]

1) Social pressure is perhaps the most ignored and significant stressor in bucks' lives. When you get to goal, the grass is almost always going to be greener on the other side of the fence for a share of the 3.5s coming up. After all, you have competition that they can't overcome, where as the neighbors have less or none that a 3.5 driven to be dominant can't overcome.

2) When you can really see the "success" or failure is generally a couple weeks before the rut kicks in. That's one of the highest risk periods for emigration/bucks shifting core areas, as bucks are starting to really fight for their position in the buck hierarchy. Once at goal, those 3.5 yr old up and comers that desperately want to dominate a niche of their own often are getting their butts handed to them by the big boys and appear to get sick of getting pushed around, but refuse to be submissive. If you don't have an open slot, they're at a very high risk of being gone.

In my opinion, the assumptions in the situation quoted above include FAR too much anthropomorphism. We can observe the changes in social structure of a local buck population and potentially make accurate assessments of why broad changes occurred, but making assumptions about why individual bucks come and go is really stretching things. We have no idea what goes on inside a deer's head. We certainly cannot assume we know the thoughts and motivations of an individual deer. Being able to say Buck A left the area because he was under too much social pressure from Bucks B and C is really outside the bounds of our knowledge.

 

[BSK]

Boll Weevil,

A couple more thoughts on this topic:

First, I have not found that deer respond much to the concept of "the grass being greener" somewhere else, unless that somewhere else is directly adjacent. Deer do not have imaginations. They cannot conceive of the idea that the situation may be better somewhere else unless they already know that other situation already exists, which means an area they already frequent. In addition, this generally only works for static things such as habitat differences between properties.

Social structures are far to fluid around the rut for major differences to exist in buck social dynamics from property to property. Bucks move around far too much at that time of year to have static and major differences across extremely short geographic distances. What I'm getting at is rarely will a situation exist where Property A has mature bucks while adjacent Property B does not (unless the two properties are massive, as in several thousands of acres each). Bucks often range thousands of acres during the rut, hence your neighbor most likely has most of the same mature bucks that you have.

Lastly, having camera monitored many local deer herds from August through January over a number of years, I do not see a pattern of middle-aged bucks leaving at a greater rate once mature buck populations increase.

 

[Boll Weevil]

Thanks BSK and BHC for the input. I'm in agreement that there's far too much individual variability and too many assumptions to make a valid inference.

Good points that "deer do not have imaginations" and there's just no way to know what's going on in their head. In some ways, running cameras has generated more questions (at least for me) than answers. I spend more time thinking about old buck behavior than in the past and perhaps applying some of what I learn to my hunting tactics. They're just a totally different creature and it's a blast trying to figure them out.

I should probably just be satisfied that he's on my side of the fence rather than start wondering WHY he's on my side of the fence but dangit...my brain just ain't wired that way!

 

[BSK]

In some ways, running cameras has generated more questions (at least for me) than answers.

They do create a lot of new questions, that's for sure. And for me, most of the questions involve why the patterns I see from year to year are SO different between properties. One property will show one pattern over and over while another nearby property will display an equally consistent but completely different set of patterns. Why?

I should probably just be satisfied that he's on my side of the fence rather than start wondering WHY he's on my side of the fence but dangit...my brain just ain't wired that way!

You and me both! But then, the fact we Humans constantly ask "Why?" about everything is probably the reason we are such a successful species. I seriously doubt any other animal on the planet asks "Why?" It takes an imagination to ask "Why?" and it takes language to have an imagination.

 

[BowGuy84]

I will say that in TN and KY I dont think this holds much water. Way too much cover in nearly all areas except for far western KY ("the island").

Places I've hunted in NW IN maybe this is more true...when there are just pockets of woods and even smaller pockets of what I would consider to be bedding cover (this mimics parts of "the island"). I think when cover becomes a limiting factor (not until after crops are harvested), then it could be an issue in really heave ag areas. You rarely find these areas in TN and KY.

 

[BSK]

Excellent point BowGuy84. Perhaps in situations where "usable habitat" (areas deer can frequent during daylight) is very limited, social pressures are exaggerated.