Doe Numbers and the Rut

[Mike Belt]

It's been in print and repeated over and over again that the closer the sex ratio and the fewer does involved in the carrying capacity the more rutting action you'll see and the more intense it will be. The bucks will have to stay on their feet and travel greater distances to find a receptive doe and the rut duration won't last as long which consequently leaves the bucks in better condition going into winter. Blah blah blah. I agree with that 100% as long as you happen to set up exactly where one of those hot does might be. Otherwise observations over the last 8-10 years here in SW Tn are contradictory. Prior to the 3 doe/day limits, back in the days when I might see groups of does numbering 8-18, I also saw 10 times the rutting action I see now. Higher numbers=more does coming into heat=bigger drawing card for seeking bucks=more deer remaining more or less in the same area. I always saw several hard chases involving multiple grunting bucks after does each season. Now I may see a group of no more than 3 does and I almost consider myself lucky to hear a buck grunt once during a season much less witness an active chase. This includes all age classes of bucks. There are exceptions to those days but they becoming very rare.

I can't make up my mind whether this is a fact or that I've become a really lousy hunter over the years. If that's the case then I have quite a few hunting buddies that are getting just as bad as me. So-o-o-o, just wondering what everyone else's take is on this fewer does and balanced sex ratio deal and how it is affecting their rutting action.

 

[Solocam]

I got to hunt property last year that we seen as many as 25 does at one time. We might have seen 6-8 bucks but it was the best rut I have ever seen. I watched two different bucks breed does and chasing most days from second week of November till season closed


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[Boll Weevil]

Another thought I've pondered related visible rut activity is buck age structure. A growing body of research seems to indicate buck home range and level of active participation in the rut may actually decrease with age. If a property is being managed for older age class bucks, over time it might seem logical that there's less observed rut activity.

When the overwhelming majority of bucks were 1.5 to 3.5 years old there were crazy chases, wild grunting, and the woods were on fire. On a large managed property, is it possible that some of what we're seeing (or rather...not seeing) is because the ratio of older bucks in the local herd has increased over the years?

To answer the original question, we do indeed see more rut activity than when we started managing ratio. For the past 6 years, we've killed does:bucks at a rate of 7:1 but we clearly had way too many when we began. We still have a very healthy population of does so don't believe we knocked back the population quite like you're seeing.

 

[Mike Belt]

Consider that probably 95% of the does are being bred. Even if we have more older bucks with fewer participating in the rut, the does are being bred. That leaves the younger bucks doing the job. Maybe they're tiptoeing around and hiding behind the trees to avoid the older bucks or us seeing them... something the does evidently have down pat.

 

[EastTNcowsNwhitetails]

I do not believe shooting all our does helps anything... ive read it a million times but here in east tn i cant shoot does in places where i dont see many deer already... the more does i shoot, the less bucks i have in the future. I feel like we are killiong our future buck numbers by over harvesting does... if i do decide to shoot a doe, which i rarely do, i choose a farm where i have observed way more does... id rather see more deer and have more bucks and does running around than have 1 or 2 big bucks with few smaller bucks and does... makes for boring hunting... we can pamper the woods for a few big bucks and make it prime for them ir we can not shoot does and have more deer and more bucks that have a chance to survive. I think id rather have 6 young bucks to pass up and survive til next year than 3 young bucks to pass up... the whole killing does thing never made sense to me... maybe in just biased because in east tn there arent groups of 18 does anywhere i hunt. I swear i just dont think my deer populations where i hunt can handle me shooting does. I know i can support whats there and i dont need to wipe out my future bucks by killing their makers to make room for my older bucks... theres plenty of room for them all say i say, shoot no does and pass up young bucks. If u want to kill a doe for meat find your biggest herd of deer and knock off an old franny doe thats not reproducing anymore... just my pwrsonal opinion. I have fun seeing deer and observing rut action like mike said... im so glad east tn isnt 3 does per day... deer wpuld go extinct in my opinion in my area.

 

[EastTNcowsNwhitetails]

My farms where i see the most does are also the farms where i see the most mature big bucks... places with less does are places where i dont see many bucks eother... so that correlates to what im saying, more does, more big bucks in the future. Less does, less big bucks in the future.... i killed a big 12 this year at a place where i see 8 or 10 does every time i hunt... that same farm ive passed up 2 younger 9 pointers... gov. Land and my other farms, i see a few does here and there and a few bucks as well.

 

[Winchester]

It works both ways, if you are inundated with Does, the bucks have to travel very little to find a receptive doe once finished with the last one, and the competition for her is zero. I dont like to see it taken to the extreme either way, a good balanced herd seems to produce the best rut action! I hunt a lot in East TN myself and we actually have one of the better more visible ruts with good chasing and tending from Mature bucks than a lot of other areas I hunt. Areas where does have been pounded I think are affected more by the pressure and react accordingly by limiting daylight movement, hence also limiting buck daylight movement during the rut. Its not always the population that people are having trouble with, its the pressure that hurts most!

 

[lungpuncher1]

It works both ways, if you are inundated with Does, the bucks have to travel very little to find a receptive doe once finished with the last one, and the competition for her is zero. I dont like to see it taken to the extreme either way, a good balanced herd seems to produce the best rut action! I hunt a lot in East TN myself and we actually have one of the better more visible ruts with good chasing and tending from Mature bucks than a lot of other areas I hunt. Areas where does have been pounded I think are affected more by the pressure and react accordingly by limiting daylight movement, hence also limiting buck daylight movement during the rut. Its not always the population that people are having trouble with, its the pressure that hurts most!

X2, pressure is the most negative thing for my hunting. I absolutely will not hunt a stand more than once, some none. Until the rut. Since doing that its helped a ton.

Leave your great rut stands alone until the time is right and its amazing the difference.

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[Mike Belt]

Agreed Winchester but I'm speaking more of places where it's not a nocturnal thing unless our deer have learned how to fly so that don't leave any tracks or sign.

 

[Roost 1]

I've said on here many times, the guys that I know here in west Ky that kill high scoring mature bucks on a REGULAR BASIS, see 20-30 does every time they go hunting. You could not pay these guys to shoot a doe.

 

[megalomaniac]

I can only speak from personal experience.... I don't think it's the doe population that matter, but rather the buck population. The more bucks there are, the more intense the visible rut action is observed. (of course you have to have enough does to keep producing buck in future years- no brainer). 15 years ago when we started passing up bucks for older age class harvests, we shot 5 does to every buck... the rut totally changed from years before that and became intense. The past 5 or 6 years we had to quit shooting does due to abysmal fawn recruitment, but still don't shoot many bucks... and the observed rut is just as intense.

The problem is... if you only have a couple does and 5 or 6 bucks, you have to get lucky to be in the 40 acre block that hot doe is in... if you are, you'll see all those bucks trailing that doe. If you aren't, you won't see anything that hunt.

The best balance between enjoyable hunting (seeing deer), and actually killing older age deer is a balanced age structure. A good rule of thumb is to shoot one doe for every buck shot (preferably a doe fawn or 1.5 y/o doe). No reason to shoot more does than that any longer.

 

[Winchester]

Agreed Winchester but I'm speaking more of places where it's not a nocturnal thing unless our deer have learned how to fly so that don't leave any tracks or sign.[/I

I understand Mike and definitely agree you can absolutely shoot too many does out of certain areas! Like stated above the 3 doe a day limit and a few yrs of bad fawn recruitment and you could have a problem quick with low doe #s.

 

[Mike Belt]

I checked a camera today and had several nice does on it. Not a one of them had a fawn.

 

[megalomaniac]

I checked a camera today and had several nice does on it. Not a one of them had a fawn.

Of the 24 or 25 different adult does I have on camera, only 2 have fawns (and obviously zero twins again this year). Gonna be some lean hunting for bucks in 4 years.