Deer Hunting Ames Plantation

[Winchester]

From what I have read about Ames rules, its definitely not QDM. Like others have said, it appears to be a good program, but more geared to TDM, especially for TN. I wish it was closer to me as I would be very interested if so.

 

[fairchaser]

I have hunted harder and smarter than I have ever hunted in my life the last 4 years at Ames. Unless, I kill something tomorrow morning, I have killed one buck over 130 in four years. I plan on hunting Ames for many years because I didn't join a trophy club. I joined a hunting club that promotes QDM and all that it means to deer and to hunting. If I had joined a trophy club I would want my money back. What I know of the other hunters is the same. I respect BSK's opinions and his knowledge of everything regarding whitetails. With regard to Ames, I disagree. The guidelines say "TYPICALLY, 1.5 and some 2.5 year old bucks are passed". To me TYPICALLY means this is a starting point. Ames did start with a 110 minimum and then moved higher from there. If they were to continue to move higher and higher, I would agree that it would be trophy management. I would likely not be a member if they moved the minimum score to such a level that only a few bucks were killed, but they never will. Their buck harvest and success rates speak for themselves. This tells me they are also concerned with changing the nature of the club to a trophy club. I disagree with those that say that Ames is some modified version of QDM and also believe Ames management would agree with me.

 

[BSK]

Whose to say what its closer to?

Those who study, teach, and practice QDM for a living.

I hunt at Ames. I would not argue its a slightly modified version of QDM but you above comment is what I'm concerned with. Every speaker from QDM to land managers that I've heard speak at Ames seems to agree that Ames has a great program and that it's a very good example of QDM.

Now think about your comment. Who is speaking? Representatives of the QDMA who are selling QDM. Of COURSE they're going to call any management process "QDM" because they're trying to sell the idea.

Who else speaks at Ames? Biologists who consulted with Ames about their program and gave advice on design/implementation. And they're going to find fault why?

A person doesn't speak before a United Autoworkers' Union meeting and slam American automobile production. Neither are those who promote the QDMA or get hired to help develop a program going to call it anything other than what they want hunters to believe it is.

Then there is you. Just you who doesn't agree with it.

I am one of a kind! And quite the contrarian too!

A lot of these people have resumes just as accomplished as your but it's all of them who are wrong.

Correct.

Hey, just my opinion. Take it for what it's worth, and I can tell you believe it's not worth much, so join the club!

 

[BSK]

...I find it particularly disturbing that anyone "in the know" is promoting Ames as a "very good example of QDM".

Ames is a very good deer management program, and as others have stated, perhaps most of the members could care less what it is called.

I completely agree with your comments Wes. I actually do find it quite disturbing--honest to gosh disturbing--that some experts would call Ames QDM. It is great management for what they are trying to accomplish there (and in my opinion, successful too), but it is not QDM.

 

[BSK]

I have hunted harder and smarter than I have ever hunted in my life the last 4 years at Ames. Unless, I kill something tomorrow morning, I have killed one buck over 130 in four years. I plan on hunting Ames for many years because I didn't join a trophy club.

But you did join a Trophy Club. How can you say that any club with rules that require a HIGH MINIMUM ANTLER SCORE as a harvest criteria as anything but a Trophy Club?

I joined a hunting club that promotes QDM and all that it means to deer and to hunting.

Just because a group claims to support (or actually does support) an idea, doesn't mean they practice that form of management.

You've killed one buck in 4 years? THAT is the realm of Trophy Management. Under QDM, they would be killing a heck of lot more bucks than what they are now, although many of those bucks would not be as large antler-wise, or as old. Under QDM, they should be killing a "quality buck" for every 100-150 acres per year.

 

[BSK]

Since Ames people are getting their panties in a wad, let me repeat once again, I like what Ames is doing. If I wanted the realistic opportunity to see/kill a top-end TN buck every year, I would ABSOLUTELY join Ames. I believe Ames is relatively well-managed.

However, the claim that Ames is "just practicing QDM" is simply erroneous, no matter what some wish were true.

 

[TheLBLman]

Let me preface this by saying I'm not here to debate the merits of what Ames is doing with their deer management program. I think they have a fantastic program, and I would truly love to be an Ames' member, if it were more convenient for me, less expensive, AND if I wasn't already involved in a really good QDM program.

Let me share a few thoughts regarding WHY it's important to better understand what QDM is, and is not, at least relative to "traditional" deer management vs. "trophy" deer management.

In a nutshell, "traditional" deer management has simply offered no protection of any bucks over any other bucks, while protecting female deer more than male deer. It has for the most part been "buck only" in times past. More liberal doe-hunting opportunities have moved our statewide deer management a little closer to the QDM model, but it has been the voluntary efforts of a growing number of hunters showing trigger restraint on young bucks ---- the hunters have done more than the regulations in moving us statewide closer to the QDM model.

From a deer harvest perspective, Quality Deer Management (QDM) simply does not protect female deer to any greater extent than male deer, AND greatly protects young male deer. One could use this in arguing that all "trophy" buck management is therefore QDM --- but this would be disingenuous.

 

[TheLBLman]

[size]Calling Ames' deer management "QDM" creates very unrealistic expectations --- and that's my main "issue" with this entire discussion --- because what Ames' is doing is NOT a representative model of QDM, nor is it duplicatable by most deer hunter-managers.

By contrast, "good" Quality Deer Management IS DUPLICATABLE for most deer hunters.[/size] It is readily available and appealing to the masses of deer hunters, and imo, this has fueled the explosive growth of QDM not just in TN, but nationwide.

As with most things in life, unrealistic expectations become the cause of so many disappointments. How many hunters (or "hunter-managers") really have much opportunity to duplicate the deer management program of Ames'?

Let's first look at acreage and the average buck's home range.
Ames is over 18,000 contiguous acres. How many Tennessee hunters have much opportunity to be in ANY private deer management program of over 5,000 acres? Even over 1,000 acres? Even over 500 acres?

IMO, and "generally speaking" one would need at least 5,000 or more acres to effectively achieve results similar to Ames, even if one did "copy" their rules. This is simply because of the average rut range of most male deer. Furthermore, "copying" their rules would not equate to compliance with their rules. How many situations could have the rule enforcement mechanisms in place anywhere close to what Ames has, including a staff biologist carefully inspecting every deer killed?

So, first and foremost, what I'm saying is that few places (in TN) have a large enough contiguous acreage to be able to duplicate Ames' results, nor the mechanisms in place to achieve such strict rule compliance.

Secondly, let's look at cost. Ames is able to have salaried personnel actively involved in every aspect of their deer management program, including a wildlife biologist as part of their staff. It's great to have detailed records, almost no opportunity for a buck to be poached illegally, etc., etc., but it's not "free". Somebody's paying, and most TN hunters would not be able or willing to pay this much annually for Ames. Of course, many are able and willing, and to those, Ames becomes a great option with a proven track record. (Again, if I lived closer, didn't already have something satisfying, I'd be trying to join Ames in the morning.)

But contrast the cost of Ames to the cost of just "good" QDM. I would say at the prevailing rate in TN, Ames is somewhere between double and quadruple the annual membership cost for deer hunting on a 1,000-plus acre private track under QDM. And no discussion of costs should exclude "value" or what exactly does one get for those costs?

Part of what many of us want is "quality" and "safe" hunting opportunities. This does not necessarily have anything to do with the size of antlers. There are many hunting clubs in TN under no deer management whatsoever offering great quality and safe hunting opportunities. And particularly from an overall perspective, some of these exceed the hunting opportunities of Ames.

So part of what I'm trying to say is that many of us hunt more than just deer. Many of us have children and family we want to just introduce or take hunting, period, not necessarily for deer. How about rabbits and squirrels, how about turkeys? Most private hunting lands in TN under "good" QDM are also providing other forms of "quality" hunting besides deer, and, at both an availability and a price point within reason for most hunters?

QDM can be widely duplicated all across Tennessee by most deer hunters. Regardless of what we call it, neither effective "trophy buck" management, nor the results seen at Ames, can be duplicated by most TN deer hunters simply because of the acreage requirements and costs. Implying that "anyone can do it" with QDM (like Ames) just simply isn't so.

I realize there are exceptions to my generalities, such as having a farm bordering Ames, bordering Oak Ridge WMA, Ft. Campbell, President's Island, etc., or maybe just bordering the Kentucky state line. Just saying "most" of us have great opportunity for really good QDM, but relatively little opportunity to duplicate the results of Ames', whatever you want to call their trophy buck management program.

 

[TheLBLman]

Since Ames people are getting their panties in a wad, let me repeat once again, I like what Ames is doing. If I wanted the realistic opportunity to see/kill a top-end TN buck every year, I would ABSOLUTELY join Ames. I believe Ames is relatively well-managed.

However, the claim that Ames is "just practicing QDM" is simply erroneous, no matter what some wish were true.

My thoughts EXACTLY.

 

[fairchaser]

[Under QDM, they should be killing a "quality buck" for every 100-150 acres per year.

Under QDM, Ames should be killing 120-180 bucks a year. Are you serious? Every hunter would be limited out in a week. That's not QDM, that's brown is down. I don't see how that harvest mentality is any different than what occurs naturally from hunters across the state. I would like to hear your sources on that statistic.

 

[8 POINTS OR BETTER]

BSK what would your rules be at Ames if you were in charge of making it a QDMA club?

 

[Mike Belt]

No panties in a wad here and no fiery defense of terminology. In our contract under membership agreement it says that "Ames Plantation makes no warranty or guaranty as to the quantity or quality or health of game present, nor to the potential or anticipated success rates for harvest, nor to any significant or demonstrable results stemming from any QDM program. I'm not sure whether that quantifies Ames as QDM or TDM...or QDM-like or TDM-like. I think of it as the best of both worlds; QDM enough to benefit the herd and the environment and enough to advance buck age structure and TDM enough to provide the possibility of shooting above average scoring bucks without the harsh restrictions almost guaranteeing that you don't...and without the negative connotations associated with pure TDM. Maybe it's QDTM?

I guess it's all in what one defines as quality. Ask 5 people and you may get 5 responses. Try to impose your definition on how and what your hunting partners kill and you may have problems. That's the beauty of Ames. Collectively it's a group of hunters with more or less the same definition and hunting on the same property with that common goal yet without pushing the envelope to the extremes for consistently taking a little better than the average buck.

 

[Bucks & Beards]

BSK what would your rules be at Ames if you were in charge of making it a QDMA club?

To build a little on this question, BSK in your opinion:
1) What does Ames need to stop doing in order to be a club that practices QDM?
2) What does Ames need to start doing(that it is not doing now) in order to be a club that practices QDM?
3) What does Ames need to continue doing?

And, do you have a copy of its current rules and regs? Seems like it would be necessary to have these in hand to understand fully the program and critique it.

 

[TheLBLman]

BSK what would your rules be at Ames if you were in charge of making it a QDMA club?

To build a little on this question, BSK in your opinion:
1) What does Ames need to stop doing in order to be a club that practices QDM?
2) What does Ames need to start doing(that it is not doing now) in order to be a club that practices QDM?
3) What does Ames need to continue doing?

I don't think BSK was suggesting Ames do anything any differently.

He was simply pointing out that what Ames is doing is more along the lines of trophy buck management than QDM. And by my take, his only criticism was towards those promoting Ames as a model for QDM, while not suggesting Ames do anything differently.

 

[Mike Belt]

I think this posting has been side tracked from what was hunting like at Ames to a pissing contest on whether it's a QDM or TDM club. It is what it is and no one has suggested it change anything. You either buy into it or not.

 

[8 POINTS OR BETTER]

BSK what would your rules be at Ames if you were in charge of making it a QDMA club?

To build a little on this question, BSK in your opinion:
1) What does Ames need to stop doing in order to be a club that practices QDM?
2) What does Ames need to start doing(that it is not doing now) in order to be a club that practices QDM?
3) What does Ames need to continue doing?

I don't think BSK was suggesting Ames do anything any differently.

He was simply pointing out that what Ames is doing is more along the lines of trophy buck management than QDM. And by my take, his only criticism was towards those promoting Ames as a model for QDM, while not suggesting Ames do anything differently.

I was just wanting to know what kind of rules would be needed for Ames to be qualify as a QDMA club.

 

[volsgo1]

Im guessing the age has to do with the price of membership more than type of management.

 

[BigAl]

Im guessing the age has to do with the price of membership more than type of management.

I agree. When I was in my 20's or early 30's, I would not have been able to afford to hunt there at that price.

 

[Bucks & Beards]

BSK what would your rules be at Ames if you were in charge of making it a QDMA club?

To build a little on this question, BSK in your opinion:
1) What does Ames need to stop doing in order to be a club that practices QDM?
2) What does Ames need to start doing(that it is not doing now) in order to be a club that practices QDM?
3) What does Ames need to continue doing?

I don't think BSK was suggesting Ames do anything any differently.

He was simply pointing out that what Ames is doing is more along the lines of trophy buck management than QDM. And by my take, his only criticism was towards those promoting Ames as a model for QDM, while not suggesting Ames do anything differently.

But fair questions in my opinion. Ames says it is a QDM club, he says that it isn't. I'm just trying to understand the basis for the differences between the views of BSK and those that manage Ames.

 

[BHC]

In QDM you are managing to better the overall health of the deer heard. When you put antler restrictions on it you are trying not only increase heard health but the number of large antlered deer. Bsk didn't say it was a trophy management club, he said modified QDM... For QDM their should be no antler restriction. Because mostly 3+ yr old bucks will be killed and a small number of 2 yr olds.
Antler restriction mean your trying to achieve larger antlers. Which is what Ames is doing. And that's fine...

I think the opportunity to kill a good deer regularly on Ames is due to its size, more than it's management.. I've realized the same on the property I hunt as well... But in a club setting your top end two yr old have to be protected to grow nice racks. Ames buck restriction does that nicely I think...