CWD

[CBU93]

Ok...fair enough....change the wording from "significant and sudden" to "massive decline"....I think Ski's point was EHD can cause a significant decline in a localized deer herd...especially given the number of drought periods we've experienced in recent years...I've read several reports from Perry and Hickman countys from JCDeerman and others where EHD knocked their deer numbers way down in previous years....just a possible explantion and a discussion about what you're experiencing.

Granted, I need more context to the narrative here. For four years prior to the announcement of CWD positive results, annual population decline on one property in the hot zone (~3400 acres) by 40 to 50% annually by hunter observation and camera census. Still relatively high population on the property as compared to others across the state so hunter success in line with management plan was aligned…announcement of CWD positive in that county connected certain dots, the following years test results from that property's harvests confirmed the presence of CWD by 100 percent positive results first year of mandatory testing.

 

[Ski]

Granted, I need more context to the narrative here. For four years prior to the announcement of CWD positive results, annual population decline on one property in the hot zone (~3400 acres) by 40 to 50% annually by hunter observation and camera census. Still relatively high population on the property as compared to others across the state so hunter success in line with management plan was aligned…announcement of CWD positive in that county connected certain dots, the following years test results from that property's harvests confirmed the presence of CWD by 100 percent positive results first year of mandatory testing.

Those are extraordinary stats. 3400 acres is a big chunk. Do you know how many deer were tested?

 

[CBU93]

Those are extraordinary stats. 3400 acres is a big chunk. Do you know how many deer were tested?

iIRC first year following CWD going "public", 20 deer 100% positive.

Second year, 12 harvests, 100% positive.

Third year, 6 deer total (hunter participation dwindled as this was not a club but privately held ground hunted by permission). Of the six two yearlings killed on a youth hunt tested negative, the other 4 were positive.

Following the two negatives, there was some hope from the landowner so the management went to archery only…hoping to rebuild the herd

This is my experience and I don't thin CWD will eradicate the deer herd into extinction in our lifetime…but it definitely can have an absolutely disastrous impact on localized, self sustaining herds on given properties.

Everyone compares West TN to other areas in f the country and says it didn't wipe out deer out there….true, but the ecological variables in a Southern deee herd is vastly different from mid western, western, or even northern herds. Different habitats, different subspecies.

Closest I would compare is AR. They have had CWD for several more years than TN, and it seems somewhat contained in just a few counties last I checked.

 

[Ski]

I don't thin CWD will eradicate the deer herd into extinction in our lifetime…but it definitely can have an absolutely disastrous impact on localized, self sustaining herds on given properties.

I won't argue that certain spots will likely bare the brunt of the disease. That's a given. Good news is the reports from recent years is that some deer are genetically resistant to CWD and that it will have tentatively killed off all the genetically vulnerable deer by 2050, leaving a population that is almost entirely resistant. It seems nature is taking the reigns and handling it for us.

 

[CBU93]

And airplane travel is statistically the safest form of travel, but that doesn't help me if I am on the plane that is crashing now in the Atlantic Ocean.

 

[DoubleRidge]

Everyone compares West TN to other areas in f the country and says it didn't wipe out deer out there….true, but the ecological variables in a Southern deee herd is vastly different from mid western, western, or even northern herds. Different habitats, different subspecies.

I guess everyone compares West TN to other areas in the country because many of those areas have had CWD for decades and many of those who make the comparision have hunted those areas for years so the comparision is only natural. I've never read about the ecological variables in a southern deer herd verses a mid-west or northern deer herd in relation to CWD....interesting.

 

[Ski]

And airplane travel is statistically the safest form of travel, but that doesn't help me if I am on the plane that is crashing now in the Atlantic Ocean.

And just like with CWD, it is what it is and there's nothing anyone can do about it but assess the damage when it's over, unfortunately.

 

[Ski]

I guess everyone compares West TN to other areas in the country because many of those areas have had CWD for decades and many of those who make the comparision have hunted those areas for years so the comparision is only natural. I've never read about the ecological variables in a southern deer herd verses a mid-west or northern deer herd in relation to CWD....interesting.

Nothing about the deer nor the habitat in TN make them unique or special as it relates to CWD. It kills indiscriminately. I've never heard anything but rumors why west TN got hit with such a concentrated dose of the disease.....or if it's even true. I'm curious as to what happens with the biologist who's suing TWRA and accusing the organization of false reporting with grossly inflated numbers of positive results. If what the biologist says is true then it's likely CWD is not nearly as rampant in west TN as we've been led to believe, and in reality would be on par with everywhere else - hence not special. He claims there have only been a small handful of 100% confirmed positives and they all came from one small area, not all the counties listed in the "unit-CWD".

https://www.outdoorlife.com/conservation/tennessee-cwd-lawsuit/

 

[CBU93]

And just like with CWD, it is what it is and there's nothing anyone can do about it but assess the damage when it's over, unfortunately.

Enjoyed the conversation fellas, but I'm out…gave up any degree of serious deer hunting a couple years ago so it really doesn't matter that much to me. I will continue to hunt this affected property on occasion and my own smaller property where I 100% control every aspect I can while turning my attention to golf, fishing, and other hunting pursuits. Best of luck to y'all this year…carry on.

 

[DoubleRidge]

Nothing about the deer nor the habitat in TN make them unique or special as it relates to CWD. It kills indiscriminately. I've never heard anything but rumors why west TN got hit with such a concentrated dose of the disease.

I've heard the rumors and assumptions but have read very little published material on the topic of how CWD arrived...while I wish I'd never heard of CWD...it is interesting to discuss and try to learn what we can going forward.

 

[Jcalder]

Nothing about the deer nor the habitat in TN make them unique or special as it relates to CWD. It kills indiscriminately. I've never heard anything but rumors why west TN got hit with such a concentrated dose of the disease.....or if it's even true. I'm curious as to what happens with the biologist who's suing TWRA and accusing the organization of false reporting with grossly inflated numbers of positive results. If what the biologist says is true then it's likely CWD is not nearly as rampant in west TN as we've been led to believe, and in reality would be on par with everywhere else - hence not special. He claims there have only been a small handful of 100% confirmed positives and they all came from one small area, not all the counties listed in the "unit-CWD".

https://www.outdoorlife.com/conservation/tennessee-cwd-lawsuit/

To add to this, when cwd was first found, it felt like the number trickled and suddenly exploded with positives. And add in the fact that twra tested for quite some time before there was a positive, they suspected it, and it was here much longer than the rest of us knew it. No way we go from a handful of cases one year to several hundred or thousand the next, and it's not been here longer than what they claim.

 

[DoubleRidge]

https://www.outdoorlife.com/conservation/tennessee-cwd-lawsuit/

Interesting read...I've heard about this lawsuit but never had read the details....very interesting that bordering counties in KY have ran thousands of samples with zero findings.
Also very interesting (and encouraging) is the following comment from the article:

"Last year was the first deer season since the discovery of CWD in Tennessee there was not a spread of the disease to new counties, which we believe is a positive indicator that current management protocols are working."

But this statement does beg the question:

Are the current management protocols working? Or....did they return to the more scientifically accurate two test method mentioned in the lawsuit?

I have no idea?....interesting conversation.

 

[Ski]

Interesting read...I've heard about this lawsuit but never had read the details....very interesting that bordering counties in KY have ran thousands of samples with zero findings.
Also very interesting (and encouraging) is the following comment from the article:

"Last year was the first deer season since the discovery of CWD in Tennessee there was not a spread of the disease to new counties, which we believe is a positive indicator that current management protocols are working."

But this statement does beg the question:

Are the current management protocols working? Or....did they return to the more scientifically accurate two test method mentioned in the lawsuit?

I have no idea?....interesting conversation.

Yes there are several curious facts. Unexplainable, inexcusable, curios facts. I'm not sure what else could be done at this point to remedy the situation. The manager and lead biologist have been removed and the spread has "miraculously" halted. What are we to do, hold them accountable for the wanton waste? The money to pay for it will come from the pool our licenses supply so we'd essentially be suing ourselves. There's no going back to change the CWD map. As the article outlines, it's reasonably plausible that infected carcasses were introduced to counties that otherwise were not and likely would not have otherwise been contaminated. The genie is out of the bottle. All that can be done at this point is stop the hemorrhage, remove the bad apple(s), and proceed forward with extreme caution. It seems as of now that is what is happening. Sometimes you get kicked in the nuts and can't do anything about it. I think this is one of those times.

 

[kentuckylakebuck1]

i just wish someone could explain the the theory where i could understand it, why is there a push to kill all the deer before they die of cwd? just seems like a huge hoax to me? it seems like there is more to the story, like twra getting money to kill all the deer, whether its from insurance companies or the federal government?

 

[fairchaser]

Some of these tests depend on where the sample was taken. How many tests do you need to call it positive? One, two or three? Would it change the protocols if there were half the number of positives? If there was a cover up, I don't like that and people should be punished but otherwise establish guidelines and move on. Sounds like sour grapes to me.

 

[fairchaser]

i just wish someone could explain the the theory where i could understand it, why is there a push to kill all the deer before they die of cwd? just seems like a huge hoax to me? it seems like there is more to the story, like twra getting money to kill all the deer, whether its from insurance companies or the federal government?

The problem with CWD that it's hard to understand. The issues are very nuanced. The details matter. For example. Why kill a deer that has CWD and gonna die anyway? So he doesn't spread it to other deer. So he doesn't travel to an area that is clean and start shedding prions, Typhoid Mary comes to mind. For now it can't be stopped but can be slowed down.

 

[Ski]

If there was a cover up, I don't like that and people should be punished but otherwise establish guidelines and move on. Sounds like sour grapes to me.

I agree 100%. And it sounds like that is what has happened. It also sounds like sour grapes. Both can be true and seems in this case probably are, minus the punishment.

 

[kentuckylakebuck1]

The problem with CWD that it's hard to understand. The issues are very nuanced. The details matter. For example. Why kill a deer that has CWD and gonna die anyway? So he doesn't spread it to other deer. So he doesn't travel to an area that is clean and start shedding prions, Typhoid Mary comes to mind. For now it can't be stopped but can be slowed down.

i still dont understand, if we kill them all, then what? to my understanding, these prions are still wherever the particular deer shed them, right? so what happens when the next deer comes into the area? even if we wipe them all out and reintroduce a new herd, the prions you speak of are still in the area, right? so i guess, the only theory i truly understand is they are telling us is they dont want deer with cwd and we should kill them all???

 

[crawford3546]

Has anyone else watched the series about the Mississippi river? Now, I'm not well versed or educated on CWD. But the episode that covers the lower portion of the river made a lot of sense as to why it spread so fast out of Mississippi. There was a lot of animals that couldn't even escape and the ones that did had to leave and find new areas.
https://www.paramountplus.com/shows/americas-mississippi/

 

[Andy S.]

Reference article above and TWRA employee claim of negligence of rapidly testing without second "closer look" test to verify. IMO, a very easy way to get a read on whether the plaintiff's claim is valid for the epicenter of CWD (SE Fayette/SW Hardeman) is to look at prevalence rate December 2018 - 2020 (before the point in time he claimed Agency started to stray away from 2 part testing) and compare the prevalence rate to same area (epicenter of CWD) for the time period he claims The Agency was NOT doing due diligence and started using other labs. Generally speaking, the Agency has a baseline (year in a half of two part CWD testing that satisfies the plaintiff) to compare the period of record he claims TWRA cut corners and is at fault (2021 - current). The prevalence rate should be somewhat similar, if nothing is awry. Essentially comparing the two periods of record with two different testing procedures (per the plaintiff), to see if they align (akin to calibrating a scientific model). Now for the counties on the fringes of Unit CWD that have 1-10 positives over a few years, the baseline data and period of record is not there to perform the same analysis. On a different but similar note, I have to question the handling of samples and the logistics of the process. I have been around long enough to know hunters/people/workers can be sloppy and careless at times, oftentimes leading to some things getting mixed up here and there that could lead to a misinformed decision.

 

[Andy S.]

i still dont understand, if we kill them all, then what?

Never will happen, never has been a concern of mine, should not be a concern of anyone else. TWRA could open deer season 24/7/365 and we would not kill all the deer. The general public and hunters just do not have the appetite for it. In a lot of ways, folks are just to darn lazy to put forth much more than minimal effort. With season structure the way it is now, we all get excited for 45-60 days of cooler weather and deer hunting and then our flame slowly fades.

 

[Andy S.]

I'm not well versed or educated on CWD. But the episode that covers the lower portion of the river made a lot of sense as to why it spread so fast out of Mississippi. There was a lot of animals that couldn't even escape and the ones that did had to leave and find new areas.

Whitetails swim the MS River daily like a fish, especially at these record low stages (2 years in a row).

 

[BigAl]

I hunt and live in Fayette Co and my observations mirror what CBU and some of the other local hunters have posted. I hunt a 1000 acre club, and we have NOT killed more deer as a result of the CWD regs or from TWRA trying to get us to "kill em all". Our sightings and harvest have declined over the years and the only explanation I can give is CWD. But I'm no biologist or expert. I only know what I see from hunting these counties for the last 40 years.

 

[Ski]

i still dont understand, if we kill them all, then what? to my understanding, these prions are still wherever the particular deer shed them, right? so what happens when the next deer comes into the area? even if we wipe them all out and reintroduce a new herd, the prions you speak of are still in the area, right? so i guess, the only theory i truly understand is they are telling us is they dont want deer with cwd and we should kill them all???

The current science suggests some deer already are or are becoming resistant to CWD. Essentially there's a race between the disease killing the vulnerable and the population becoming resistant. Seeing as how the disease will not kill off the resistant deer it is inevitable the disease will eventually lose that race. Killing off all deer indiscriminately also includes the resistant, thereby hindering nature's ability to moot the disease. As you say it is not going anywhere. It'll always be in the earth and as long as deer are susceptible to it, any deer residing on the infected earth will be infected themselves and die. Nature creating a genetically resistant deer doesn't cure CWD. It makes it moot, non infectious. It's how immune systoms work, how God made us all. Sometimes the best thing to do is nothing at all.

Here's an interesting article outling the more recent line of thinking with CWD.

https://www.bowhuntingmag.com/editorial/promising-new-CWD-research/476239

 

[DoubleRidge]

The current science suggests some deer already are or are becoming resistant to CWD. Essentially there's a race between the disease killing the vulnerable and the population becoming resistant. Seeing as how the disease will not kill off the resistant deer it is inevitable the disease will eventually lose that race. Killing off all deer indiscriminately also includes the resistant, thereby hindering nature's ability to moot the disease. As you say it is not going anywhere. It'll always be in the earth and as long as deer are susceptible to it, any deer residing on the infected earth will be infected themselves and die. Nature creating a genetically resistant deer doesn't cure CWD. It makes it moot, non infectious. It's how immune systoms work, how God made us all. Sometimes the best thing to do is nothing at all.

Here's an interesting article outling the more recent line of thinking with CWD.

https://www.bowhuntingmag.com/editorial/promising-new-CWD-research/476239

Interesting and encouraging read...Thanks for sharing.

 

[kentuckylakebuck1]

The current science suggests some deer already are or are becoming resistant to CWD. Essentially there's a race between the disease killing the vulnerable and the population becoming resistant. Seeing as how the disease will not kill off the resistant deer it is inevitable the disease will eventually lose that race. Killing off all deer indiscriminately also includes the resistant, thereby hindering nature's ability to moot the disease. As you say it is not going anywhere. It'll always be in the earth and as long as deer are susceptible to it, any deer residing on the infected earth will be infected themselves and die. Nature creating a genetically resistant deer doesn't cure CWD. It makes it moot, non infectious. It's how immune systoms work, how God made us all. Sometimes the best thing to do is nothing at all.

Here's an interesting article outling the more recent line of thinking with CWD.

https://www.bowhuntingmag.com/editorial/promising-new-CWD-research/476239

i agree with this totally! my next question is, if this is the case why is twra pushing farmer permits and liberal limits all through the seasons?

 

[Ski]

i agree with this totally! my next question is, if this is the case why is twra pushing farmer permits and liberal limits all through the seasons?

No idea and I'm unaware if they've even attempted to explain it. The approach seems counter to general consensus, which isn't necessarily a bad thing if there's some reasonable biological logic behind it. The world is still very much trying to figure out how to deal with CWD so it's not a bad idea to try different things. That's why I've been slow to judge. But the case against their approach is growing. I think there's a good argument to scrap the approach and do something else or nothing at all. Nothing wrong with just observing, studying, IMO. Not every problem requires a hammer to fix.

 

[double browtine]

I saw this article this morning.
https://www.parispi.net/sports/outdoors/article_fb33fd5e-644d-11ee-95d7-0fdf08e9ae39.html
Kinda reminds me of the Covid / flu testing
I've been saying for years that the TWRA really smeared the mustard on the CWD study! More of a scare tactic and an attack on hunters IMO!

 

[fairchaser]

i still dont understand, if we kill them all, then what? to my understanding, these prions are still wherever the particular deer shed them, right? so what happens when the next deer comes into the area? even if we wipe them all out and reintroduce a new herd, the prions you speak of are still in the area, right? so i guess, the only theory i truly understand is they are telling us is they dont want deer with cwd and we should kill them all???

We wouldn't ever be able to kill them all. CWD is a proximity disease. So reducing exposure is key to keeping the percentages lower. Once the percentage gets above 30% it's starts to impact populations. I guess we could just throw our hands up and give up and see what happens. It might not make any difference anyway but being proactive could help too. It seems you'd rather just allow it to take its natural course and hope for the best.

 

[Swampster]

I agree with @Andy S.

The majority of hunters are not taking advantage of the liberal limits .

It is West TN. A lot of the people don't pay any attention to the regs anyway.