Catch and Release

[gil1]

I saw a post about someone raising cane if they were bowfishing in a carp fishermens spot. If anyone threatens to whoop me while I'm bowfishing (buffs not included) for common carp, then you better have enough cash in the bank to cash that check. I will throw a common carp on the bank to rot, before I release them back in the water. IMO, anyone who releases invasives back to the waters they came from, should be fined and ticketed no differently than poachers.

If it wasn't my post you're talking about, it should have been. Your comments are heresy, sir, and I am bound by honor to pommel you into subconsciousness with a wet carp (before I carefully release him unharmed).

Okay, I'm messing around a little, but I would seriously never bowfish in one of my carp fishing spots. And whether you like it or not, I will release them all to be caught again. They are a fantastic sportfish worthy of my praise and protection.

Well, when I'm not blowing them up with an arrow!

 

[Anonymous]

Ain't nothin like a good fish fry. I like to keep what I can eat and throw back the rest.

 

[Tubakka]

Gil,
If Fox News ever gets an outdoor program, we should send them a script of some of our rants. We'd get picked up for sure.

I'm going to say this gil, and please don't take this the wrong way. You said something about catching the biggest fish available on your tackle. That IS the very nature of the problem here. Unless you're consistently throwing a heavier fly on weighted line under generation, under MOST conditions, you're not going to even be aware of the larger fish. I'm sure there are times other than the spawn that they move shallow, but I'll be honest, on one generator, I blow past most of the river and hit the high percentage areas...usually near deep water. The fish of decent size rarely use those runs, and 90% of my nicer fish come from 10% of the water [Buck Perry]. In fact, there have been times on that river during consistent flow and weather that me and shore have CALLED FISH ON THE CAST over 20". One time in 5 consecutive trips I took 5 consecutive browns between 20-24" from the exact same ten feet of water on the river. I say that not to brag, but as a testament to this...I didn't catch hardly ANY fish over 20" until I changed my tactic. Even under falling water, I didn't do that great. It wasn't until I began to fish generation above 1 gen and up to 3 that I began seeing consistent larger fish, and on 1, like I said there are good sections of the upper river specifically I just blow past. Not worth the time to waste. What I'm saying is...

...doing what you're doing, mostly wading and fishing smaller flies [I hardly throw anything under 5" and 3/4 of an ounce and have been lobbing 2 ounce crankbaits recently. Wait till I start whipping out my musky baits...] it wouldn't matter if every fish in there were 25" and up...you probably wouldn't catch any. I waded that river ALOT with smaller crankbaits, intensely over a concentrated span of time, and only at dusk would I take any fish over 20". Although I did get my 28.5" wading, it was under a near perfect weather condition which is what I attribute to that fish being where he was, as well as another occasion when myself and a flyfishing friend saw 3 fish on falling water, on a 70 degree day in late December, near or over 30", one of them with it's back out of the water at Betty's Island.

What little I've seen with these trout...the biggest ones only get active under flow or cover of darkness, my next foray, but only under near perfect weather conditions will they submit themselves to the ultra shallow water, at least in the Caney. Even my big one wading I got in a channel hugging the opposite shore right before the drop into the Betty's Island hole. You don't catch big bass beating the shore in the summertime very often...you gotta go deep. I don't think these big trout are much different most of the year. Now how to get down in those holes effectively under flow...

 

[gil1]

You said something about catching the biggest fish available on your tackle. That IS the very nature of the problem here. Unless you're consistently throwing a heavier fly on weighted line under generation, under MOST conditions, you're not going to even be aware of the larger fish.

No, it's only a problem for you. You can float by me all day catching 30-inch browns while I battle 10-16 inchers in my waders, and I'm happy as I can be for both of us.

I get it Tubbs, but what I think you're missing is that I'm not changing my tactics to get to the 10 pounders. I actually enjoy spinfishing every once in a blue moon, but it's just not where my heart lies. Nearly every time we get into this, your tone seems to want to ask, "why the heck are you fly fishing when you could do what I do and catch bigger fish?" I always try to answer as best as I can, but I just don't think you could really relate.

A few years ago on the Cumberland, I was catching 13-16 inchers fairly consistently in a tailout. Up above the riffle, 8-10 inch rainbows were sipping caddis on the surface. I left the 16-inchers to catch the 8-inchers on dries. I giggle like a 10 yr. old every time, and that's what I'll keep doing. You wouldn't understand.

Why wade a river and fly fish for trout when I could spinfish out of a boat and probably catch the bigguns? Why bowhunt for deer during gun season? Why dove hunt with a 20-guage when you could use your 12? Why chase bluegills when there are lunker largemouth in the same lake? Why in the world would anyone watch gobblers strut within shotgun range while holding only a bow? Only one reason that matters...because I enjoy it.

Swear to Gawd, my motivations used to be very similar to yours, and there's nothing wrong with that at all. I tossed jerkbaits when I was a kid until my arm about fell off. What a blast, and more power to you.

You don't need to understand it, Tubbs. Just do what you enjoy, and let me and everyone else do what we enjoy. That's all that matters.

 

[Tubakka]

Gil,
You just contradicted yourself again. You just corrected me by saying you are in fact trying to get the largest fish in the system doing what you're doing, but I rebuttal that with saying that what you are doing, not specifically using fly tackle, but how and when you are using it, is not going to produce for you nice browns no matter how many big ones are in there...in other words, if every brown trout in there were a "trophy" it still wouldn't matter. You wouldn't get them unless you bumped up tackle size and fished under generation. That is the advantage to spin fishing and you said it yourself, that heavier stuff on fly throws your arm out. It's not about being a "dummy" or some BS like that. WHY throw your arm out just for some form of image of whatever on this high water, and why limit yourself...haha, I occasionally peek in to watch on a flyfishing forum and these poor guys from Nashville froth like rabid dogs when they see that water go down. I had to motor upstream past them to get the dam launch on low water...a miscalculation on my part...and I felt like a jerk but there was lightning and it had to be done....and I realized this was utopia for these guys. I just wish people would learn that there's much more to this resource and not be limited by...whatever...anyhow, back to topic. You say in one sentence about how you want trophy regs, but all I'm saying is by your own admittance and apparently...your desire...trophy fish don't matter to you. Otherwise you'd do more of what I do, or at least switch to heavier tackle and fish flowing water with weighted lines. That's what for the life of me I don't understand.

 

[gil1]

Let me try again, Tubby Tubbs. Yes, I'd love to catch the biggest fish in the river. That matters to me. But not enough to change the way I like to fish. If dynamite were legal, I wouldn't toss it in those deep pools and blow up big browns and neither would you. It's probably a more efficient method, but it's not as challenging or as fun as another. It's just my preference to fly fish. Can't you understand that a 16-incher on a fly rod is more exhilarating to me than a 25-incher on a spinning rod?

What image are you talking about? Like I said before, you're making just another method of fishing into some kind of cult or art form or something. I am exactly the same person when I toss bait, bowfish, throw jerkbaits, or fly fish. There is no image, just fishing.

You're not teaching me anything by telling me that there are limitations to wading and tossing midges. I've known that for years, and it's really okay with pretty much everyone in the world but you. My goal is to have fun. I have spinfished for more years than you have been alive. Spinfishing is a blast, but I prefer flyfishing. The concept is so simple, but you have a turd in your head that apparently blocks the obvious.

Lord, haven't you ever enjoyed anything that isn't maybe the easiest way out? Don't you ever float the long way around the island even when you know it isn't the quickest way home? You get more corn off the cob by slicing it off with your knife, but just once in your life Tubbs, pick that freaking ear up and eat that mother scratcher with your hands. Let the butter drip on your shirt. Savor life, Tubbs, or at least try to understand when others do.

 

[bowriter]

We were in New Mexico. We were hungry. We took our ultra lights to the Brazos Hole to get a mess of troutfish. We caught 30. We ate 10. We threw 20 back. Biggest was 12 inches.

We were fishing for food. Not a bit of sport in it. Catch 'em, pitch 'em on the bank and catch another one. Could just as well have used dinomite.

Had to catch 30 to get 10 big enough to even mess with. Flyrod guy came along and remarked at how great the fishing was. Nice guy...super nice guy since he owned the ranch we hunting on.

It's all in perspective.

Many, many times I have jerked my lure out of the water to keep a rockfish or hybrid from hitting it. It is all in perspective. I would not give you a dime for a 40-pound northern or a 50-pound muskie. It is all in perspective.

A two pound bluegill is supreme. A seven pound smallie is supreme. But I would never throw a carp on the bank cause some poor schlub is liable to trip over it and break his pucker strap. But I will throw a gar on the bank cause most likely some Coonasse will come along and eat it.

It's all in perspective.

 

[rsimms]

Gil ... give up. In truth, your signature says it all: "Many go fishing all their lives without knowing that it is not fish they are after."

All fishermen figure that out sooner or later... some sooner, some later.

 

[Headhunter]

Tubs, does he EVER make any sense? Talk about not telling the truth, I have not read them, don't have time, but there is no all of his posts have taken him less than 15 minutes. It took at least that long to summon up Buck Perry from the dead in order to get all his information. I generally read the first couple of sentences in any of Tubs posts and can tell they are useless.

 

[Tubakka]

You guys are missing it. I'm not attacking these things at all. Hell I still love to go pond jumping and bluegill fishing. There is a different flavor for everyone; the beauty of fishing

This isn't about what people enjoy or not. That's not it at all. THAT IS NOT THE TOPIC OF DISCUSSION AND IN NO WAY DID I ATTACK THAT AT ITS BASE. But it is relevant TO the topic of discussion concerning this particular tailrace fishery. This is people who aren't fishing for larger fish trying to have a say in the management of larger fish. Gil admits, what he does is not targeting big fish, fly or not, and that frankly he doesn't care, but then he talks about how he wants to see the Caney be a more catch-and-release fishery and makes statements about how the number of browns are decreased and he wants to see more big browns in there because, believe it or not, he's going after the biggest fish his available tackle and tactics will offer him everytime he goes out. But that's a contradiction. Do you realize some of the loudest voices in management of a tailrace in this area ONLY fish it wading, and NEVER fish it with anything larger than 2 inches long and never on more than one generation of water? That's a fact.

Just a few months ago there were some pretty brash statements made concerning the "current state" of the brown trout fishery and how its depleted, made by people whom the aforementioned very accurately describes. If that's what they enjoy, more power to them! I still enjoy wading falling water catching little rainbows and browns on tiny crankbaits when that's all I have. But it's when these people try to have a voice in a fishery they're not totally aware of, that's where I get issues. Heck, I'd been gone a year and came back to a fishery better than when I left it! And saw more people enjoying the same fishing I had come to.

This is about the fact that in assessing a recreational fishery, it doesn't matter what you shock, net, or concussively sample. What matters is WHAT IS BEING CAUGHT. You could have a trophy walleye fishery in a lake but if everyone there just bass fishes, no one would know. People may say they "trout" fish, but be more specific. There are 3-4 different categories of trout in these tailraces, easily distinguished in their habits by the size difference. Just because you say you fish for "trout" doesn't mean you're fishing for BIG TROUT. I think we've seen that...a giant brown produced on the Caney be a LIVE BROOK TROUT? I throw big baits, but nothing that big! And my results reflect as such. This can be said for every angler that is apart of every demographic that fishes that river.

This in a nutshell came down to gil saying I had a point about his tactic and choice of time limiting his big fish success [btw a 23.5" brown is a nice fish for what you do good work] but then he goes on to say that "well, I still want to catch the biggest fish available in what I'm doing...but therein lies the point. Just because you go trout fishing, doesn't mean you're fishing for the trout in question. A 20" brown does not behave like a 12", at all...and a 25-30" brown does not behave exactly like a 25-30". And a fish BIGGER than that is almost like a completely different animal, almost like a muskellunge, it seems.

 

[Tubakka]

Headhunter, I type pretty darn fast. But that's beside the point...wait, let me look for a kitchen sink you can reference my typing speed against...???

Seriously dude, if all you're going to do is shoot spitwads in class, just sit down. You haven't said anything contributory or remotely useful since I've known you on this forum. All you do is take pot shots. And you're neither constructive nor very creative about it. A virtual keyboard cretan. At least I try to put some kind of spin on it in my friendly bouts with gil, and I think the fruits produced from both sides can be very entertaining at times.

..."bro"...haha, I googled that episode to watch. Thanks for rekindling gil.

 

[Tubakka]

I will say gil it was very clever to mask your arguments in catch-and-release forum with turning it into another attack by yours truly onto the emotional appeal of finer-things-in-life angling. Now back to the topic at hand....

 

[AlabamaSwamper]

THere has been plenty of lakes ruined by length limits as well as C&R practices.

Many states are now encouraging folks to keep fish, especially bass.

Wilson was all but ruined by the 15" rule and Bay SPrings has way to many spots.

 

[num1medic]

If its legal and edible, I keep and clean. Not only for me but my parents and grandparents love to eat fish too.

 

[Headhunter]

Tubs, you are a first class moron.

 

[BGobbler]

alabama swamper i fish wilson on a weekly basis and you are exactly right it is still overstocked with little fish but is getting better ever year with new regs. I have friend who goes down there every tuesday and keeps a limit he feeds his family with them. I dont think there is a thing wrong with keeping fish as long as it is legal

 

[gil1]

I will say gil it was very clever to mask your arguments in catch-and-release forum with turning it into another attack by yours truly onto the emotional appeal of finer-things-in-life angling. Now back to the topic at hand....

But here's the thing, Ole Tartar Sauce - I didn't even bring it up. I wasn't talking about the Caney or even fly fishing. What I said to introduce the thread was...

Instead of dissing the other side for what they believe, I'd love to hear specific reasons for your mentality on the subject. I don't give a crap what you think about your neighbor's methodologies. What makes you tick and why?

But you piled on like you always do. Those of us that don't care to fish like you are not allowed to have an opinion about catch and release because we can't handle the catch part of the equation. You also said that I don't know the fishery well enough to be allowed to have an opinion.

I never said I was Buck Perry, and Lord knows I'm not half the man you are, but I'm still allowed to have an opinion. How in the world do you fit that gargantuan ego inside that thick skull of yours?

The boy reminds me of an old Chessie I had (RIP). She had the drive to be a fine retriever, but she was just too hard-headed and headstrong to be worth a crap. I had to have her tubes tied and leave her at home when the ducks were flying. She never "got it," and neither will you Tubbs.

Gil ... give up. In truth, your signature says it all: "Many go fishing all their lives without knowing that it is not fish they are after."

All fishermen figure that out sooner or later... some sooner, some later.

I think I WILL give up for now. Tomorrow afternoon, I will be wading on either the South Holston or the Watauga River. If I'm lucky, I'll catch a rainbow in the 12-13 inch range and eat it streamside for supper. I will leave the Ole Tartar Sauce and any other sides that leave a bad taste in your mouth at home. :sick:

 

[bowriter]

Man aint it great to be summer again

I should have gotten Tubs, Bob Dennis' autograph. He is the largest collector of Spoonplugs in the country.

 

[Tubakka]

Gil, gil gil...the only reason my argument about your tactics has any validity is because you started a thread about catch and release...you have said repeatedly you don't care about catching big trout because you enjoy what you do, no matter what. Man, I don't care. Have a ball...but my issue comes with you trying to talk management of larger fish you don't interact with regularly. That was it. No ego, dude. None whatsoever, you brought it up. The only reason in this thread tactic was brought up because in many instances with the trout, the tactic you choose automatically prequalifies you for a certain size class. Period. If you wade shallow water tossing small flies, you're not fishing for big fish under normal circumstances. If you're cool with that, I'm cool with that. What I'm not cool with is that particular demographic being so outspoken about their assessment of the status of a fishery, or trying to tell people who do regularly catch nicer fish on other tactics what to do with those fish, or how it affects their catch of those fish that they don't target or apparently don't care to to begin with. Gil, don't try to turn me into a Snidely Whiplash here, man. It ain't going to work. Your argument has more flaws than a Polish submarine, but you still keep trying to close that screen door on my logic. I have no problem with what you or anyone else on that river does period, as long as you don't try to tell me who fishes it under a variety of conditions targeting nicer sized fish the status of the fishery. I'll gun you down everytime.

 

[Tubakka]

Gil, just to sumarize this, you've said you don't care to catch bigger fish because you don't care to adjust your tactics to target them. That's fine, dude. If you have fun doing what you're doing, that's great. In fact, on falling water sometime, I'd love to join you wading at Betty's Island at dusk. It's a blast! And there's always a shot at a nicer fish. But it's absolute ignorance when you are talking catch and release about fish you hardly ever catch because you don't even target them. That's not a slant at your ability; you're consciously choosing not to do what it takes to go after them, so what is your problem then? I have no problem with WHAT you do until you try to interject your opinion on a topic, the status of larger fish in the river, when you have absolutely no idea what it is. At all. No offense man. You keep saying how terrible harvest is and how much harvest has occurred and how its absolutely destroyed the fishery. Dude, I didn't plant hooks today, although the girl I took got a 30" rockfish on light tackle which was a hoot, but moved a trout that was bigger than the rock, and 3 over 25". Big fish are in there. Yet, you all persist in saying how there are no big browns and how much harvest has killed it. Yet, I see the exact opposite. I'm not saying that harvest is responsible for that, but obviously the fishery, as I stated, is built to sustain a level of harvest, and with the continued stocking, it would take a legion of anglers much more adept than me to clean out the river like you think is all too possible.