BSK
Well-Known Member
This guy is the epitome of the problem I so often rail about: self-proclaimed experts (who usually come from the trophy hunter ranks) spouting junk biology and management information.
BSK, gonna love this one
- Thread starter BSK
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JCDEERMAN
Well-Known Member
Dang, the rutting moon is extremely late this year! November 17th.....I might not hunt until the second weekend in muzzy
:D what idiots
:D what idiots
W.Seay
Well-Known Member
Wow??!!
jlmustain
Well-Known Member
Do you think any of his info' has to do with locale? I'm not saying what's he's written is correct, but it's not like he doesn't have any deer on the wall.
BSK
Well-Known Member
jlmustain said:
No. Nowhere in the whitetail's range is breeding timing driven by moon conditions. Each location will have its own unique breeding timing (peak dates), and that timing is the same year after year, regardless of full moon timing and whether or not hunters actually witness it. And that last part is critical. What hunters see and what is really going on biologically can be two very, VERY different things.
jlmustain,
I don't want the following comments to sound like I'm picking on you personally, because I'm certainly not. But this erroneous idea that because someone is a successful killer of big bucks makes them a knowledgeable biologist runs rampant within the hunting community. But think about it. That's like saying a highly successful serial killer would make a great doctor. If someone is great at killing people they must know everything there is to know about human biology. Would you have wanted Jeffrey Dahmer as your brain surgeon?
I'm not saying successful trophy hunters don't know anything about deer. What I'm saying is the knowledge required to be a successful trophy hunter is VERY different than what is required to understand deer herd biology and management. What I often see with successful trophy hunters is they make exceptionally savvy observations about deer behavior that help them pattern and understand daylight deer movements better than the vast majority of other hunters, but they jump to completely erroneous conclusions as to biologically WHY deer are doing the things they observe them doing.
Having sound biological knowledge of deer can make you a more successful hunter, but on its own, that knowledge won't make you a successful trophy hunter. Other more specialized knowledge is required. In the same vein, knowledge of successful tactics for trophy bucks does not make one a biologist. The two types of knowledge are quite different.
Bill Winke hit it dead on and nothing else needs to be said. Of course, he just said what I have always said...me and BSK. :)
Just something to think about. If a successful hunter,one who has killed 50-bucks over 150" is asked to name the chambers of a deer's stomachs, how many do you think can? Conversely, most deer biologist can quickly name the four chambers. How many do you think can kill 50-bucks over 150"?
I can put gas in my truck but I can't win the Indy 500.
Oh...Rumen, reticlum, omasum and abomasum.
Just something to think about. If a successful hunter,one who has killed 50-bucks over 150" is asked to name the chambers of a deer's stomachs, how many do you think can? Conversely, most deer biologist can quickly name the four chambers. How many do you think can kill 50-bucks over 150"?
I can put gas in my truck but I can't win the Indy 500.
Oh...Rumen, reticlum, omasum and abomasum.
catman529
Well-Known Member
which of the four chambers contains the green privet pesto like when I accidentally cut into a does stomach last October? Stuff was nastybowriter said:
Catman, in all likely hood, that would be the abomasum. That is where pepsin is produced and that is probably what you are talking about. However, mostly digested green browse could be found in any from number one, the rumen on back and might look the same. You can find out by tasting it. The pepsin is slightly bitter and slithly acidic tasting. The green bwose should not be bitter.
catman529
Well-Known Member
OK, I will bring a McDonalds straw in the woods with me for test tasting. Does the frost affect the flavor? What if the deer has been browsing on poison ivy?bowriter said:
Killing big bucks on free ranging land where these mature deer act like...MATURE deer (namely are no hunted lightly but rather are hunted hard and KNOW they are being hunted, does NOT take a deer biologist.
It takes someone who is capable of killing mature deer becuase they have LEARNED how.
I have yet to meet ANY CONSISTENTLY successful mature deer hunter who does not know at least a little something about deer behavior. But most are certainly NOT deer biologist.
Also, I have never met a deer biologist who was good at consistently killing mature pressured deer.
It takes someone who is capable of killing mature deer becuase they have LEARNED how.
I have yet to meet ANY CONSISTENTLY successful mature deer hunter who does not know at least a little something about deer behavior. But most are certainly NOT deer biologist.
Also, I have never met a deer biologist who was good at consistently killing mature pressured deer.
BSK
Well-Known Member
102 said:
I have, but their ability to kill mature bucks from pressured land had little to do with their biological knowledge and everything to do with dedicating years and years to learning how to do so.
BSK
Well-Known Member
102 said:
I agree. But knowing something about deer behavior doesn't imply knowing why or for what biological reason deer are displaying that behavior (i.e. what that behavior means biologically).
Having a biological knowledge of deer is, without a doubt, an aid in consistently killing bucks of any age. I have on several occasions killed mature bucks that I may have never killed had I not had some biological (educational) knowledge of what they were most apt to do in certain situations. Most often as it related to a food source.
Consistently killing mature bucks involves not only knowledge but time and opportunity. Knowledge not only of the animal but of the terrain and food sources. However, the overriding factor in consistently killing mature bucks on any land, private or public is luck.
Consistently killing mature bucks involves not only knowledge but time and opportunity. Knowledge not only of the animal but of the terrain and food sources. However, the overriding factor in consistently killing mature bucks on any land, private or public is luck.
jlmustain
Well-Known Member
I didn't take it personally. I'm just trying to figure out the issue. So is his reliance and usage of the solunar calendar is your beef?
Consistently killing mature bucks involves not only knowledge but time and opportunity. Knowledge not only of the animal but of the terrain and food sources. However, the overriding factor in consistently killing mature bucks on any land, private or public is luck.
EXACTLY!
EXACTLY!
jlmustain said:
You see, it is an ongoing thing. His reliance on a "theory" that has been proven to be totally false is the thing. IOW-the moon has nothing to do with the rut. However, he keeps trying to sell a product and a "schedule" based on the totally false information. That is the beef that BSK, myself and others have with this.
It is no big deal but he is trying to pass himself off as an expert and a biologist when in fact, he is neither.
jlmustain
Well-Known Member
I've enjoyed his site. I don't know about the biology of it all, but I can appreciate what I read from folks who do know deer biology, especially if it relates to helping put meat in my freezer. Knowing stomach chambers isn't as big a deal to me as making sure I don't puncture it.
BSK, do you have a 'site/blog with articles about the biology of deer and how it relates to hunting them?
As for the moon, I don't yet see a correlation between it and deer movement, intrinsically. Practically, though, I do pay attention to it, especially in December if fuller moons occur on clear nights. I do see a correlation there in that they all seem to put up shop by shooting hours on pressured land since they can accomplish what they need to by the moon's light.
I can see where it would frustrate a deer biologist to read unproven or false claims by non-biologists who claim to be.
As for the rut, I've only paid attention to what chases does, and since the moon's never done that, I don't pay it much mind.
BSK, do you have a 'site/blog with articles about the biology of deer and how it relates to hunting them?
As for the moon, I don't yet see a correlation between it and deer movement, intrinsically. Practically, though, I do pay attention to it, especially in December if fuller moons occur on clear nights. I do see a correlation there in that they all seem to put up shop by shooting hours on pressured land since they can accomplish what they need to by the moon's light.
I can see where it would frustrate a deer biologist to read unproven or false claims by non-biologists who claim to be.
As for the rut, I've only paid attention to what chases does, and since the moon's never done that, I don't pay it much mind.
BSK
Well-Known Member
redblood said:
"Time" (and good research) have already solved the question of the accuracy of his rut predictions. They are inaccurate.
BSK
Well-Known Member
MattR said:
Correct. Good hunters often notice patterns in deer activity that they later exploit to their advantage, making them more successful killers of specific deer. However, noticing the pattern doesn't explain why that pattern occurs. Knowing why that pattern occurs can also provide predictive information that leads to hunting success.
BSK
Well-Known Member
jlmustain said:
My first beef is his promotion of bad information--information (that moon cycles trigger breeding timing in deer) that has been known to be false for a number of years; long enough that he should know better, as that information has been widely available. My second beef, not directed at the author but at many hunters, is that because he has killed some nice bucks, hunters will assume he is very knowledgeable about deer biology and management issues. The author may be a wealth of information about hunting big bucks in the Midwest, but that doesn't automatically mean he has knowledge of deer biology and management. Yet hunters will see his bucks on the wall, make the illogical leap that he "knows what he's talking about," and then soak in everything he has to say, ignoring the facts learned through real science.
That last part may seem unimportant, as people are free to believe anything they want, and good scientists often disagree on what the "truth" really is. But as an educator, ever since "professional hunters" and their self-aggrandizing TV shows became popular, I have had to spend the vast majority of my time "undoing" all the bad information these "pros" spout and hunters eat up because they heard it on TV from a pro hunter. If those pro hunters would take the time to educate themselves, they could be a huge help in educating hunters on biologically sound management concepts. Unfortunately, they don't appear to be interested in that, and worse yet, it often appears their promotion of false information is linked to personal monetary gain.
Personally, I have no problem with people benefitting monetarily from the commercialization of deer hunting or knowledge of deer. But if you're going to "sell information," then sell accurate information.
jlmustain
Well-Known Member
Do you have a 'site? If not, have you thought about it? De-bunking myths is always an audience magnet.
Too many people take the garbage that comes out of alot of these "professional hunters" mouths as a fact when it is very far from the truth and this article proves it. Misinformation. It makes it a lot harder for hunters who are trying to soak up all the deer hunting information they can when you have people writing information that they do not understand or know to be fact.
Winchester
Well-Known Member
I agree to a point, but when this feat is achieved on a consistent basis, much much more is involved than luck alone! I agree luck plays a role, but to do this consistently is far from lucky alone!102 said:
BSK
Well-Known Member
jlmustain said:
Yes. TNdeer.com! :)
Actually, I used to answer questions on several deer hunting talk forums, but I mainly stick to TNdeer and ALdeer these days.
BSK
Well-Known Member
I agree that consistently killing old, wary deer, year after year, is far more than luck or time spent in the woods. Luck and time spent are helpful, but knowledge and skill are far more important, and can always be found attributal to consistent success.
jlmustain
Well-Known Member
I was talking about for articles. I'd love to read a biologist/hunter's take on an array of subjects. I'm mostly interested in scouting for bow season on public lands right now. An article, for me, takes away the mystery of having to ask the right questions on a subject I don't know what I don't know about. Ha!
