Battery swap 36volt Lithium?

spoonie

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Clueless battery questions….. 😳😳😳Currently running 3 standard 12volts, late fall it seems that my 3 bank charger has crapped out on me…. Since having to change chargers thinking of going lithium. Is it better to run one single 36volt or 3 12 volts.
This is my CC boat I use the trolling motor 99% of time for spot lock. I like the idea of just one battery to worry about.
Brand and charger suggestions? Do the lithiums hold a longer charge than standards?
Thanks fellas
 

yesmarwh

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Clueless battery questions….. 😳😳😳Currently running 3 standard 12volts, late fall it seems that my 3 bank charger has crapped out on me…. Since having to change chargers thinking of going lithium. Is it better to run one single 36volt or 3 12 volts.
This is my CC boat I use the trolling motor 99% of time for spot lock. I like the idea of just one battery to worry about.
Brand and charger suggestions? Do the lithiums hold a longer charge than standards?
Thanks fellas
One of the best persons to ask on here is blueball. He works for proformance fishing electronics. As for myself, I have a lithium 50amp that runs a 12 inch garmin, 9 inch hummingbird and livescope. After about 8 hours I have only used 15%. I plan on going to lithium for my trolling motor this summer.
 

bluball

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Clueless battery questions….. 😳😳😳Currently running 3 standard 12volts, late fall it seems that my 3 bank charger has crapped out on me…. Since having to change chargers thinking of going lithium. Is it better to run one single 36volt or 3 12 volts.
This is my CC boat I use the trolling motor 99% of time for spot lock. I like the idea of just one battery to worry about.
Brand and charger suggestions? Do the lithiums hold a longer charge than standards?
Thanks fellas
I prefer the 3 12volt lithium setup myself,font really like the one battery 24/36volt single batteries.With a 3 battery setup if you have a problem with one battery you can simply add another 12volt lead acid or gel if you had to to get by in a pinch.With the 3 12volt setup and you have charger problems it's way easier to find the 12volt charger than the 36volt.If you have any questions call the shop,performance fishing electronics at 7314418965 and talk to danny.
 

TNReb

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Different strokes for different folks. It entirely depends on what fits your situation best.

I run two 36v in parallel because maximum amp hours was my priority.

Some trolling motors (the Ghost for example) can run on 24v or 36v. If you had three 12v batteries in series and one went bad, you could still run the trolling motor on 24v.
 

East TN Bowhunter

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I prefer the 3 12volt lithium setup myself,font really like the one battery 24/36volt single batteries.With a 3 battery setup if you have a problem with one battery you can simply add another 12volt lead acid or gel if you had to to get by in a pinch.With the 3 12volt setup and you have charger problems it's way easier to find the 12volt charger than the 36volt.If you have any questions call the shop,performance fishing electronics at 7314418965 and talk to danny.
To add to this i dont think you can power your graphs with a 36 volt. You can power livescope transducer and black box with up to a 24v? But the graph/chart plotters have to be 12v i think. 🤔 If you are only powering your trolling motor then i guess you would be alright with the one 36v. I currently run 2 lead acid 12v batteries in parallel and they power my trolling motor and my graph screen. Then i have the milwaukee battery 18v set up to power my ducer and black box.
 

spoonie

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To add to this i dont think you can power your graphs with a 36 volt. You can power livescope transducer and black box with up to a 24v? But the graph/chart plotters have to be 12v i think. 🤔 If you are only powering your trolling motor then i guess you would be alright with the one 36v. I currently run 2 lead acid 12v batteries in parallel and they power my trolling motor and my graph screen. Then i have the milwaukee battery 18v set up to power my ducer and black box.
The 36 volts only power my trolling motor, I have two 12 volts that serve for my cranking and graphs radio ect…… probably about time to replace those as well 🥴🥴
 

spoonie

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I prefer the 3 12volt lithium setup myself,font really like the one battery 24/36volt single batteries.With a 3 battery setup if you have a problem with one battery you can simply add another 12volt lead acid or gel if you had to to get by in a pinch.With the 3 12volt setup and you have charger problems it's way easier to find the 12volt charger than the 36volt.If you have any questions call the shop,performance fishing electronics at 7314418965 and talk to danny.
I'll be headed west to duck hunt next week, I'll hopefully be able to swing by and get a game plan together with you guys. Thanks
 

WTM

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as safety advice, never mix lead acids/sla/agm and lfp batteries in series at TM loads or youll soon have a bad day. as in killing all 3 batteries or missing the back end of your boat bad day.

just keep in mind with a brushed TM, the duty cycle reduces when using LFP batteries. minn kota recommends no longer than 15 minute usage pulling full load on 9-10 settings. brushless motors are not affected as LFP voltages were included in the design.
 

spoonie

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as safety advice, never mix lead acids/sla/agm and lfp batteries in series at TM loads or youll soon have a bad day. as in killing all 3 batteries or missing the back end of your boat bad day.

just keep in mind with a brushed TM, the duty cycle reduces when using LFP batteries. minn kota recommends no longer than 15 minute usage pulling full load on 9-10 settings. brushless motors are not affected as LFP voltages were included in the design.
Good info to know, I know my TM works really hard in the current\swells while spot locked in the gulf
 

Headhunter

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At the moment, a solid NO to lithium marine batteries. From what I have been told, if you have to have insurance on your boat, insurance premiums will be higher if you use lithiums. Also, some motor manufacturers say do not use lithium batteries for the motor.

If they ever catch on fire, they cannot be put out and will burn and most anything near them til they burn out. Also, bass boats are designed to run with most weight toward the back of the boat. If you want to maintain the performance of the boat and decide to use lithiums, you will need to experiment, but moving weight from the front to the back.

If you go to a bass tournament (elite series tournaments for example) where there is an area that the anglers can pull their boats to, for service (boat, motor, trolling motor, depth finders, power poles, etc.) and you ask the tech's opinions about lithiuns, every single one of them will advise you NOT to use lithiums. Well except for the lithium battery techs.
 

Smells Like Sulfur

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I have a handful of hand built lithium battery banks, and they are just as safe as lead acid if used with the proper protections. Lead acids are usually just plug and play, and don't require any monitoring electronics, but lithium requires a battery management system, it also will not charge below freezing, but that can be easily mediated with a heating pad. You can also take a lithium battery down to empty, and not damage it, drop your lead acids down past 50% a few times and you'll find they hardly hold any charge anymore, even deep cycle marine batteries will only get a few hundred charges if discharged below 50%, rather than thousands of charges that lithium will give you.

There's a lot of misinformation on lithium, including the fact that there are multiple types, and all of them have different safety profiles. LiFePo4 is known to be relatively safe, and they don't have the tendency to catch fire during thermal runaway, LTO is known for its massive power output, and regular li-ion have been known to explode if used improperly. I would definitely not use li-ion on a boat, but LiFePo4 I would have absolutely no issue with.

Here's a safety video about lithium iron phosphate. They had to take a propane torch to it to get it to ignite.



Lithium outperforms lead acid in just about every way except for low temperature charging. For everyone who wants to talk about fire, don't forget about the hydrogen gassing from lead acid batteries, hydrogen outgassing in battery compartments on boats can be deadly. A well setup lithium bank will not gas anything. The big issue with lithiums is that they're capable of putting out so much power most people don't properly protect them. Those crappy little MRBF fuses won't stop the potential AIC of lithium, they can put out a massive amount of power. Special fuses and breakers are required for proper safety.

Lead acid also requires you to monitor the electrolyte level, keep the batteries charged when not in use, and they're known to have a relatively low cycle life. On the chart make sure you pay attention to depth of discharge.

Cycle-life-comparison-of-lead-acid-and-Li-ion-battery.jpg


I'm part of another forum that is mostly dedicated to building lithium battery banks, and almost every failure we've come across has been from an installation error, very rarely do the batteries themselves cause problems, it's most likely the owner trying to cut corners by not buying a class T fuse, skipping a proper and quality battery management system, using wiring that is too small, attempting to crimp wires with a crappy crimper and ending up with loose, hot connections, or just a general lack of understanding of how lithium batteries need to be handled. The charging voltages are different, and they need to be monitored differently. They are not usually "plug and play", and require a professional who knows what they're doing to install them.

I have over 10 kilowatts of lithium batteries in my house, and I've never once had any kind of issue or close call. If I had to guess, I've probably cycled them (10%-90%) about 1,500 times, and they still work great. That being said, I spent about as much on the batteries as I did the safety mechanisms to protect and monitor them.

They use lithium batteries on the international space station. I think they're fine for a boat when installed properly.
 
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TNReb

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At the moment, a solid NO to lithium marine batteries. From what I have been told, if you have to have insurance on your boat, insurance premiums will be higher if you use lithiums. Also, some motor manufacturers say do not use lithium batteries for the motor.

If they ever catch on fire, they cannot be put out and will burn and most anything near them til they burn out. Also, bass boats are designed to run with most weight toward the back of the boat. If you want to maintain the performance of the boat and decide to use lithiums, you will need to experiment, but moving weight from the front to the back.

If you go to a bass tournament (elite series tournaments for example) where there is an area that the anglers can pull their boats to, for service (boat, motor, trolling motor, depth finders, power poles, etc.) and you ask the tech's opinions about lithiuns, every single one of them will advise you NOT to use lithiums. Well except for the lithium battery techs.

Insurance is no different with lithium batteries - at least not with any insurer I've ever heard of.

Neither Yamaha nor Mercury void their warranty if you use lithiums. They just won't cover any problems caused by the battery.

Go with a reputable brand with a proper BMS and there won't be any issues.
 

Headhunter

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Insurance is no different with lithium batteries - at least not with any insurer I've ever heard of.

Neither Yamaha nor Mercury void their warranty if you use lithiums. They just won't cover any problems caused by the battery.

Go with a reputable brand with a proper BMS and there won't be any issues.
I personally know several Yamaha techs. It voids the warranties on anything the lithium causes problems with. ALL the techs will advise you NOT to use lithiums for the Yamaha motors.
 

Smells Like Sulfur

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I personally know several Yamaha techs. It voids the warranties on anything the lithium causes problems with. ALL the techs will advise you NOT to use lithiums for the Yamaha motors.
The charging and float voltages for lead acid and lithium are very different, and those motors are calibrated to use / charge a lead acid battery. Any problems caused by a lithium battery can be mitigated by using the proper alternator and/or charging equipment that is designed for lithium.

I've got an old truck that charges its lead acid battery to 14.7 volts, which is way more than lithium should take. If the battery management system didn't shut the battery off, it could overcharge, and potentially create a fire (depending on which lithium chemistry the battery is). When the alternator is adjusted down to 14-14.4v, there's no more issues. I run my truck on lithium all summer, and switch back to lead acid in the winter because I'm too lazy to install heating pads. It's not plug and play, and the lithium battery requires a separate charging circuit.

The batteries themselves aren't the problem, it's people that don't understand that you can't just buy a lithium battery, drop it in your boat, and expect it to work without modifying some additional things, like the alternator charging voltage / profile.

Lithium batteries are superior to lead acid in almost every way, except for low temperature charging, but like I said before, that can be mitigated with heating pads, and most of them can be discharged well below freezing.
 
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WTM

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I have a handful of hand built lithium battery banks, and they are just as safe as lead acid if used with the proper protections. Lead acids are usually just plug and play, and don't require any monitoring electronics, but lithium requires a battery management system, it also will not charge below freezing, but that can be easily mediated with a heating pad. You can also take a lithium battery down to empty, and not damage it, drop your lead acids down past 50% a few times and you'll find they hardly hold any charge anymore, even deep cycle marine batteries will only get a few hundred charges if discharged below 50%, rather than thousands of charges that lithium will give you.

There's a lot of misinformation on lithium, including the fact that there are multiple types, and all of them have different safety profiles. LiFePo4 is known to be relatively safe, and they don't have the tendency to catch fire during thermal runaway, LTO is known for its massive power output, and regular li-ion have been known to explode if used improperly. I would definitely not use li-ion on a boat, but LiFePo4 I would have absolutely no issue with.

Here's a safety video about lithium iron phosphate. They had to take a propane torch to it to get it to ignite.



Lithium outperforms lead acid in just about every way except for low temperature charging. For everyone who wants to talk about fire, don't forget about the hydrogen gassing from lead acid batteries, hydrogen outgassing in battery compartments on boats can be deadly. A well setup lithium bank will not gas anything. The big issue with lithiums is that they're capable of putting out so much power most people don't properly protect them. Those crappy little MRBF fuses won't stop the potential AIC of lithium, they can put out a massive amount of power. Special fuses and breakers are required for proper safety.

Lead acid also requires you to monitor the electrolyte level, keep the batteries charged when not in use, and they're known to have a relatively low cycle life. On the chart make sure you pay attention to depth of discharge.

View attachment 211412

I'm part of another forum that is mostly dedicated to building lithium battery banks, and almost every failure we've come across has been from an installation error, very rarely do the batteries themselves cause problems, it's most likely the owner trying to cut corners by not buying a class T fuse, skipping a proper and quality battery management system, using wiring that is too small, attempting to crimp wires with a crappy crimper and ending up with loose, hot connections, or just a general lack of understanding of how lithium batteries need to be handled. The charging voltages are different, and they need to be monitored differently. They are not usually "plug and play", and require a professional who knows what they're doing to install them.

I have over 10 kilowatts of lithium batteries in my house, and I've never once had any kind of issue or close call. If I had to guess, I've probably cycled them (10%-90%) about 1,500 times, and they still work great. That being said, I spent about as much on the batteries as I did the safety mechanisms to protect and monitor them.

They use lithium batteries on the international space station. I think they're fine for a boat when installed properly.

LFP packs can gas off hydrogen as well at the rate of 50% of their weight. lithium hydroxide, LiH, is the main component in LFP cells. when they react with mousture in air (H2O) it releases H2 as gas. they also release a gas compound that acts as an anesthetic, so its wise to get away from a pack that is gassing off.

you cant really predict how LFP cells will act under an abuse test. they are that unpredictable. those LFP cells in that video are pvc encased heavy duty cells, not really what we have in marine packs.
here is a vid of a cell that can be found in marine packs:



that said, i wouldnt expect common user abuse like this maybe an accidental screw drilled in one maybe. they are definately better in every way as far as deep cycle applications go. i still wont recommend them as crankers though.
 

Smells Like Sulfur

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LFP packs can gas off hydrogen as well at the rate of 50% of their weight. lithium hydroxide, LiH, is the main component in LFP cells. when they react with mousture in air (H2O) it releases H2 as gas. they also release a gas compound that acts as an anesthetic, so its wise to get away from a pack that is gassing off.

you cant really predict how LFP cells will act under an abuse test. they are that unpredictable. those LFP cells in that video are pvc encased heavy duty cells, not really what we have in marine packs.
here is a vid of a cell that can be found in marine packs:



that said, i wouldnt expect common user abuse like this maybe an accidental screw drilled in one maybe. they are definately better in every way as far as deep cycle applications go. i still wont recommend them as crankers though.

I actually know the guy that made that video. He's a good, honest guy, and runs a small business that distributes lithium batteries and kits. I could be mistaken, but I'm pretty sure he also sells (or sold at one point) deep cycle lead acid batteries, so it's not like he's trying to push you one way or the other. He knows what he's talking about too.

He did some other tests as well, and was unable to get lithium iron phosphate batteries to fail to fire unless they were severely abused, like spike driven straight through it, or extreme overcharge, Even the overcharge just created a lot of smoke, but no flame. Other lithium chemistries will however fail to fire very easily if abused, like the lipo cell in pretty much every cell phone, or e-scooter / bike battery.

Sticking a metal rod through any type of battery will probably cause a fire, it creates a dead short through its entire structure. I'd be interested to see what a metal spike driven through a fully charged deep cycle lead acid battery would do.

Lithium batteries do have the potential to gas, but under normal operation they don't. Most LiFePo4 cells have a vent, but it's completely sealed, and unable to open unless it is permanently broken, if the gas seal is broken, the battery should be immediately disposed of. Lead acid will gas under normal operation. LiFePo4 cells like the one in the video will not catch fire due to thermal runaway (like lipo cells do) either, I'm part of a forum that specializes in electronics in lithium batteries, and that video has been discussed quite a bit, including by the guy who made it.

From Google:
" A typical lead acid battery will develop approximately . 01474 cubic feet of hydrogen per cell at standard temperature and pressure".

" LiFePO4 batteries do not emit gas like lead-acid batteries do. You can safely store and operate LFPs in sheds, garages, or inside your home."

Unless you're keeping your batteries in an airtight container, gassing is more or less irrelevant anyway.

I do agree about lead acid being a better starter battery, there's a reason they're still used in vehicles. That being said, there are no circumstances that I would choose lead acid over lithium for energy storage, unless I lived in a ridiculously cold climate, Even then, I would rather dig a root cellar for lithium.

I think it's also worth mentioning the environmental impact of manufacturing lithium cells, most lead acid batteries are recycled, lithiums aren't as much, and we are almost entirely dependent on other countries for our supply.

I'm just pointing out that I think there's a lot of misconceptions about lithium. Some Li chemistries are inherently more dangerous than others, and most people aren't aware that there are multiple types of lithium batteries, nor are they aware that they are not "drop-in" replacements for lead that require additional hardware to use safely.
 

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