I used to shoot sabots with various pistol bullets. They shot good, with no problems. But, about 10 years ago, I switched to 350 gr. pure lead Maxi-Hunters. I know a guy that casts them, and he swears by them. I agree with him too, they shoot good and expand great.
Anybody shoot pure lead conicals?
- Thread starter ROVERBOY
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BSK
Well-Known Member
When I shot a hawken, I used to use Maxi-Hunters and Maxi-Balls. Loved them because they always punched all the way through. Also used to hand-cast Civil War Minnie balls from plumber's lead for my 58. This year I'll be experimenting with Powerbelt pure lead bullets (has the plastic skirt but no copper jacket).
Smo
Well-Known Member
I shot maxi hunters back a few years ago…
I never lost a deer I shot at.
This was from several different side lock Hawken style rifles..
Most were DRT!
I never lost a deer I shot at.
This was from several different side lock Hawken style rifles..
Most were DRT!
larry ipock
Well-Known Member
Tried Hornady conicals and maxi hunters in both my Knight and my CVA Optima. Never could get them to group consisent ly at the range. I just gave up. Been using Hornady XTP sabots for years now.
BSK
Well-Known Member
I think the pure lead conicals like the Maxi-Balls and Maxi-Hunters performed best from the slow twist of a Hawken-style gun (usually 1:48 twist). The faster twist of inlines, like 1:24, don't seem as conducive to lead conicals.
TboneD
Well-Known Member
Yep. I used heavy Great Plains pure lead years ago and they're hard to top in terms of terminal performance. If the gun likes them I'd shoot 'em, especially if I'm not hunting where shots will be that long.
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BSK
Well-Known Member
Had never heard of that company. Looked them up. How interesting.
Several years back, I was shooting 410 gr Great Plains conicals with 85 gr of 777 out of an older model CVA Optima. It was a devastating load on deer. Broke my heart when Hornady quit making that bullet. Never could get the 385 gr ones to shoot as well.
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Yep. Buffalo Bullets. Hits like a cinder block.
larry ipock
Well-Known Member
My CVA Staghorn has a 1: 32 twist. I've shot about everything in it. 350 gr. Maxi-Hunters, 370 gr. Maxi-Balls, 385 gr. Great Plains, 240 gr XTP sabots, 260 gr. Nosler HP sabots, CVA Shockwaves 250 gr. , Never tried the 410 gr. Great Plains. I've got some CVA Powerbelts but, never shot them. Everything has shot good.
BSK
Well-Known Member
I don't fully understand the ballistics, but know roundballs shoot best from very slow-twist guns, like 1:66. Lead conicals best from the mid-range twist like 1:48. The fast twist of many modern inlines are designed for sabotted bullets, but will sometimes shoot conicals OK. The skirted Powerball bullets (basically, a Minnie Ball) shoot well out of inlines.
Lot will depend on the length and weight of the conical. There are several pure lead conicals that shoot excellent in fast twist muzzy barrels. Bull Shop and No Excuses make several, and you can get sizing packs to see which diameter your gun likes before you commit to buying a bunch. Just tell them what rifle you have and they'll recommend one that works.
BSK
Well-Known Member
Fascinating. Great info, thanks.
larry ipock
Well-Known Member
Good info. Been shooting XTP sabots for years now. Getting good performance. Just always wondered why conicals wouldn't well in my Knight and Optima.
Thats plain silly. White rifles used a 1-24 twist for 50cal and 1-20 for 45cal and shot conicals excellent. They were made to shoot conicals. How about the old Gibbs/Volunteer/ect type 45s with a fast twist. Sabots did not even exist back then. Numerous shooting matches where won with rifles like that shooting big soft lead.
50cal 1-28 can shoot conicals just fine. It usually not that its a conical. Its the load someone is putting behind it and the type of conical. Bullshop and NoExcuses offer excellent conicals that work just fine in a 1-28 or even faster twists.
I would say my Knight 45cal 1-20 does far better than just OK.
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Grill-n-man
Well-Known Member
A lot of today's gun twist rate are designed to shoot an saboted bullet with a 100gr by volume charge with a saboted bullet weighing in the ballpark of 250gr. This is an "average" load for most shooters and this "average" produces the most consistent accuracy for the the average shooter/hunter. With lead conical bullets they are typically a lot heavier and typically need attention to powder charge to achieve the best accuracy. Same can be said when shooting a say a 300gr Barnes spritzer. It's a heavier than "normal" bullet and powder charge to produce desired results could take some trigger time. A lot don't have the time,money, or desire to find the sweat spot. Nothing wrong with that as life is supper busy and complicated and the time needed to find this sweat spot could be used elsewhere. Also lead used in today's bullets is not of the quality it was 20+ years ago. Also the demand is a fraction of what it 20+ years ago so quality control is not where it used to be. This produces varying weights and heavy spots that cause the each shots to vary. Also several of the older guns designed to shoot conical at a faster twist rate were actually a .504 caliber. So with what is considered today as a"factory" gun just simply want shoot lead conicals without some real bench time. How deep the rifling is cut into the barrel also has a great deal to do with how a gun will shoot lead. Not to mention each gun is different, although may look the same they are different.
Now that that's said you can not compare the factory guns and bullets most shoot with specialty/custom guns and/or bullets. Example, the Knight 45cal 1:20 twist was designed to specifically shoot heavier than normal 45cal bullets. A specialty gun shooting custom bullets is not a fair comparison. That's like saying a professional shooter with $50000 a year worth of sponsor money shooting a $2000 custom muzzleloader with their own hand molded 605gr hard cast bullet with 38.5gr weighed Swiss at the NMLRA 1000 yard match is on the same same as a factory worker who get 3 days to hunt muzzleloader with a CVA Wolf shooting 2 pyrodex pellets and a 245 power belt. Although similar not a fair comparison
So in short, today's muzzleloader are by design made to shoot a saboted bullet within a particular weight range within a particular load range to achieve an acceptable degree of accuracy. Yes some can shoot a lead conical but it takes time, money, bench time, and some luck
So if you want to shoot lead then there are 2 choices - spend money and put in the bench time or find some of the few that produce lead loads like powerbelt or traditions in a sabot. For me I'll stick with the design of my factory guns, side locks get lead and inline gets a saboted copper or brass bullet. Why fight the design? Spend the time hunting and enjoy life
Now that that's said you can not compare the factory guns and bullets most shoot with specialty/custom guns and/or bullets. Example, the Knight 45cal 1:20 twist was designed to specifically shoot heavier than normal 45cal bullets. A specialty gun shooting custom bullets is not a fair comparison. That's like saying a professional shooter with $50000 a year worth of sponsor money shooting a $2000 custom muzzleloader with their own hand molded 605gr hard cast bullet with 38.5gr weighed Swiss at the NMLRA 1000 yard match is on the same same as a factory worker who get 3 days to hunt muzzleloader with a CVA Wolf shooting 2 pyrodex pellets and a 245 power belt. Although similar not a fair comparison
So in short, today's muzzleloader are by design made to shoot a saboted bullet within a particular weight range within a particular load range to achieve an acceptable degree of accuracy. Yes some can shoot a lead conical but it takes time, money, bench time, and some luck
So if you want to shoot lead then there are 2 choices - spend money and put in the bench time or find some of the few that produce lead loads like powerbelt or traditions in a sabot. For me I'll stick with the design of my factory guns, side locks get lead and inline gets a saboted copper or brass bullet. Why fight the design? Spend the time hunting and enjoy life
BSK
Well-Known Member
Great post Grill-n-man.
Grill-n-man
Well-Known Member
Thank you sir
I can only assume you never saw the original load data from Knight and all the other "Super 45" offerings from other vendors. It was a 155gr 40cal bullet in a sabot with 3 pellets......yep that was the recommended load claimed to duplicate 7mm-08 velocity. There is nothing special about that twist its been used for ages and its still offered today by Knight in 2 models. The Mountaineer and the Ultra Lite. Traditions is now offering a 1-20 and CVA has a 1-22. Plus both offer faster than 1-28 50cals.
Saying they are "designed for sabots" is total nonsense. Many recent Inline Hunter events at Friendship have been won with 45 1-20 and not a single one was won with a sabot. All have been either sabotless jacketed or conicals. Its been ages since anything from White rifle has even been in the top 5.
You can buy a Mountaineer 45 1-20 right now and they have placed or won numerous times.
Smo
Well-Known Member
If I remember correctly when inlines were first developed they were made too shoot lead conical bullets, giving more knock down power over a conventional round ball..
Not all inlines are created equally….
One of the earlier ones….
Not all inlines are created equally….
One of the earlier ones….
Wobblyshot1
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Dang Smo, you're showing your age. I don't even know what that one is. Looks like you might need face protection to shoot that one.
Grill-n-man
Well-Known Member
GMB54 I was mistaken. I just found some lost footage of a NMLRA match winner who stopped by Wal-Mart on his way to the match. Dadgun if he didnt just shove 2 pellets and a Great Plains bullet from the clearance isle down the barrel and bang he struck plum center at a grand. Imagine the look at on all those guys faces who showed with up with custom guns, hand weighed powder charges, and hand cast bullets. Fools wasting money and time like when they could just be shoving any ole thing down any ole barrel.
Sorry couldn't help myself, but in case in other average shooters like myself are curious about lead conicals and their performance please read my original post.
Sorry couldn't help myself, but in case in other average shooters like myself are curious about lead conicals and their performance please read my original post.
Smo
Well-Known Member
Correct…. You couldn't pay me too shoot this one…
Wobbly, there's no face protection required Warning stamped on the barrel…. So it must be safe!
Sorry but the opening line is total hogwash. Its like saying CVAs shoot Powervelts best. As if the twist and barrel are magically made to shoot them better than sabots. Even though the CVA barrel is no different in twist and number of lands than the vast majority of new inlines.
The biggest mistake people make shooting conicals is using too much powder and not trying different wads. Ive owned no less than 4 45s. Twists including 1-30, 1-28, 1-22 and 1-20. They all shot sabots, Powerbelts and conicals fine when you found the combo it liked. None of them were overly fussy. My 54 is a 1-28 and my last 50 is a 1-32. White rifle 45s were .451 which is in the ball park for many other brands too. I currently have 2 that are .450, 1 is almost .451 and the last is .452 on the lands. Funny part is they are all Knights but from different years and models but they are all Green Mountain barrels.
The vast majority of new 50cal inlines are 8 lands and a 1-28 twist. Lands from .500 to over .502. There are a few exceptions to this such as Pedersoli plus a couple Traditions/CVAs. Cramming a light for caliber conical in a modern inline with 100gr+ of modern subs is usually gunna yield crappy results. People have become so accustomed to that type of load behind a sabot or Powerbelt it never crossed their mind its too much powder. They got no idea a wool wad might work better then a veggie or poly wad. Let alone a 54cal wool wad might even give them better results in their 50cal.
User errors like this are because so many are just seasonal ML hunters wanting another chance to harvest a deer and those people typicaly use whatever the brain dead salesman at Cabelas tells them to shoot. Shooting conicals is not that much different than sabots. Find the size that fits your barrel best and the load it likes behind it. No brand has ever made a inline 45cal or 50cal that is somehow magically "made for sabots or Powerbelts".
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There are much better conicals than the old T/C Maxis. Hornady used to offer a 410gr Great Plains that was better than the 385gr just as one example of a commercially available conical. If you want good conicals go to Bullshop or even NoExcuses for his sizing pack. Once you find the size you need (just like choosing a sabot) buy a conical in the 420-460gr range. They are about $60/100 from Bullshop. Pretty sure Dan can still size them to your needs. NoExcuses does also.
Keep loads in the 70-90gr range if using Triple7 or Swiss. Usually no more than about 80gr is needed. Pyrodex might need a little more. BH209 will need less and may require more tinkering but ive used it plenty with 45cal conicals without a problem. I just dont see how that its any different than choosing the best sabot and load for your rifle. I find it no more difficult and a bit easier to load in the field because i dont need a short starter at all. I use less powder and often less cost per shot.
Somehow most of the guys in PACNW regulated hunts are able to figure this out. You cant use sabots in places like Colorado and Idaho.
Keep loads in the 70-90gr range if using Triple7 or Swiss. Usually no more than about 80gr is needed. Pyrodex might need a little more. BH209 will need less and may require more tinkering but ive used it plenty with 45cal conicals without a problem. I just dont see how that its any different than choosing the best sabot and load for your rifle. I find it no more difficult and a bit easier to load in the field because i dont need a short starter at all. I use less powder and often less cost per shot.
Somehow most of the guys in PACNW regulated hunts are able to figure this out. You cant use sabots in places like Colorado and Idaho.
