Ammunition and fires

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7mm08

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Does anyone know the "flash point" for ammunition in a fire? Does it go off and the bullet travel, or does the lead/copper melt and powder burn without primer ignition?

If someone knows, it might be helpful in picking out a safe or storage issues, not that any of us are buying extra ammo right now...

Surely we have some firefighters or military guys on here that would know.

Thanks
 
I don't know what the temperature has to be but it will definitely 'go off' when it gets hot enough. It is not extremely dangerous if it is unconfined as in a cartridge box or loose. If it is in the chamber of a loaded gun or revolver then it is as dangerous as if one fired the round in a normal situation. I have seen ammo that exploded in a fire with the bullet still contained in the neck having the case ruptured and/or the primer 'shot' out. I have seen this happen-it is about like a large firecracker going off. There is potential for injury of course but not extremely dangerous I reckon. (you can try this yourself in a controlled situation by tossing a loaded round into a fire--behind cover of course) Plateau Hunter
 
Pending on the size of the round, ex: .22 cal, the brass will split open and make a firecracker noise. Something like a .50 cal you will get schrapnel(sp) from the brass because of the amount of powder inside.

It does not take very long for the ammo to touch off in direct contact with an open fire.

I would be more concerned about loose powder cans, black powder and such.

FDXX75
 
My 24" Golden Rod in my safe heats up to 150 degrees to combat humidity. That is below the flash point of instantaneous combustion according to them.
 
I did a little more research and found this read: Kudos to FullDraw

In his book "Gunshot Wounds" Vincent Di Maio describes various experiments where ammunition was heated in ovens. He says that .22 long rifle cartridges detonate at an average of 275F, .38 Special at 290F and 12 gauge shotgun shells at 387F. The interesting thing about these furnace experiments was that in all instances the cartridge cases ruptured, but the primers did not detonate. In fact the primers were removed from some of the ruptured cases, reloaded into other brass and fired.

When cartridges are placed in a fire he confirms that the most dangerous component of a cartridge is the brass, or fragments thereof that may cause eye injury or penetrate skin, but certainly there is no evidence that a cartridge that is not in a firearm can cause a mortal wound, either by action of the bullet or the brass/primer fragments. It is important to remember however that a chambered cartridge that detonates in a fire is just as dangerous as a cartridge that is fired under normal circumstances in a firearm.

To get a better understanding of the behaviour of free-standing ammunition in a fire, he conducted experiments with a propane torch. A total of 202 cartridges (handgun, centerfire rifle and shotgun cartridges) were used. If the heat was applied directly to the base of a shotgun shell the primer would detonate, the powder would ignite and the shell would rupture. Any pellets that emerged were traveling too slowly to be recorded on a chronograph.

In rifle and handgun cartridges where the flame was applied to the base of the cartridge the primers always detonated but the powder only ignited in half the cases and in those instances the cases did not rupture but the gas was instead vented through the primer hole.

When he heated these same handgun and rifle cartridges at the front, the powder would burn and the cases would usually rupture but with few exceptions the primers did not detonate. The velocity of expelled projectiles ranged from 58 ft/s to 123 ft/s. The only exception was the .270 cartridge where the bullet velocity was 230 ft/s. Primer velocities ranged from 180 ft/s to 830 ft/s.

As a side note he says that a revolver in a fire is especially dangerous because all the cartridges can cook off and be discharged such that there is a danger from projectiles. Only the bullet that came out of the barrel will have rifling marks and the ones that came from non-aligned chambers will have shear marks on them. Obviously if there is a question about the firing of a weapon and whether it was cooked off or fired intentionally they will look for a firing-pin impression on the primer of the suspect cartridge case.

References:

Sciuchetti G.D. Ammunition and fire. American Rifleman 144(3): 36-38, 59-60, March 1996.

Cooking-Off Cartridges. NRA Illustrated Reloading Handbook. Washington, D.C.: The National Rifle Association of America.

And of course Vincent Di Maio's excellent book "Gunshot Wounds - practical aspects of firearms, ballistics and forensic technics".
 
Not exactly the same thing, but I do know that unless a shotgun shell is supported in the chamber, it wont fire with any lethality. I was plinking at a trash dump a few years ago, and put a shotgun shell in a hole in an old metal trash can. I then shot the primer with a 22. There was no bang, just a muffled sound and the sound of the shot hitting the inside of the trash can. The shell split at the base, and the shot didnt even dent the inside of the trash can.
 
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It is my understanding that due to the fact that the ammo is not constricted into a tight space(the chamber) that the energy from the explosion will be disbursed over a mich larger area and therefore the bullet will not travel with its normal speed.
 
In most cases the bullet barely gets out of the case, the case splits and the gases are then expelled out.

As far as shooting one bullet with another, the bullet being fired is traveling at such a high rate of speed, it would probably blow straight through before the target cartridge had time to ignite.

I saw an episode resently on Mythbusters about this very subject, most if not all the bullets were found within several feet of the fire, pieces of the brass now was a different story........

They actually had impact material set up to document flying debris and what pieces caused the marks, nearly all the marks were from the brass, no bullets.

FDXX75
 
Those mythbuster guys play with some dangerous stuff.
One day something is going to go wrong on those dudes.
 
LCU said:
Those mythbuster guys play with some dangerous stuff.
One day something is going to go wrong on those dudes.


LOL, I am more scared of a beer keg and a hot water heater than live ammo now a days..............

Yep, you do some wacked out stuff.

FDXX75

PS: but it is all for our personal safety, so we don't try it at home...............LMBO
 
Who didn't cut open shotgun shells as a kid?
Or throw .22's in a fire?

Most of us probably.

I even put a screwdriver in a wall plug,and a wire to cross it.
Blew me backwards. Had to work fast to remove the black crud from the wall.
 
Another episode of Mythbusters had them using 22 cartridges as makeshift fuses in a truck. With a shorted circuit they were able to make them detonate and some small shrapnel wounds were produced but nothing major. Pull the bullet first, use the case, and then set the truck on fire!
 
Whelen Man said:
Another episode of Mythbusters had them using 22 cartridges as makeshift fuses in a truck. With a shorted circuit they were able to make them detonate and some small shrapnel wounds were produced but nothing major. Pull the bullet first, use the case, and then set the truck on fire!

Yep, saw that one also................LOL, remove bullet before taking one in the stick & berries.

FDXX75
 

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