• Help Support TNDeer:

TWRA on the NitroFire

451LRML

Member
Joined
Jan 1, 2016
Messages
271
Talking with a TWRA Commissioner, they agree with the NMLRA (who establishes ML policy for the NRA) on the definition of a ML.
Both powder & projectile loaded in the muzzle with ignition at the breech.
It’s been that way since the rifle was developed a few hundred years ago.
 

GMB54

Active Member
Joined
Oct 10, 2014
Messages
901
Location
Missouri
Virtually all the straight wall cartridge break actions can be had for well under $500. Virtually all of them will beat the Fiddlestick in speed and cost per shot. When you open up your season to rifles like the Nitrofire you can be damn sure the straight wall single shots are next to be allowed. A few states already allow single shots. Some have changed the name of the season to things like Primitive or Alternative.

So even if it were legal here i cant imagine why i would want to shoot a rifle with 2 powder load options and still have to fill out a 4473. The Fiddlestick is actually $2.50 to $2.70 per shot plus bullet, sabot and primer. I can easily buy/reload Hornady 45/70 Monoflex or 450 Bushmaster ammo for that price or less. I can then reload the brass which Federal clearly states you cant with the Fiddlestick.

Another issue. Sure its easy to remove the powder. What about the bullet/sabot? You still have to push that out if you dont fire it. You will probably damage the sabot or bullets like the Federal BOR-Lock in the process. If i have to dump a BH209 load im out less than a dollar even with a max load.

What about conicals?...Somehow i doubt smallest 100gr load of this new wonder powder is low enough to shoot a conical without leading the barrel. I doubt Federal/Traditions even recommends shooting bullets 400gr or more with them. Hodgdons official reply to 888 is they have no plans to release it in loose form. Federal states you DONT clean it with water....Wanna bet its either BH209 or smokeless powder in that Fiddlestick.

The new Hodgdon Triple Eight is not designed for water-based clean-up. Using a cleaning solvent provides an effective and efficient job cleaning.
If its smokeless then why not just get a SML and get an easy 300fps more for less than half the price per shot for powder. I get 120ish shots out of my most expensive powder at $40/lb. I get 2440fps with that load using a 275gr bullet at 33cents per shot. Add about $1.50 for bullet and sabot. Total cost is less than 1 stinking Fiddlestick.
 
Last edited:
Primary

Primary

TNDeer Assistant
Here are some related products that TNDeer members are talking about. Clicking on a product will take you to TNDeer’s partner,Primary, where you can find links to TNDeer discussions about these products.

 
 

sun

Active Member
Joined
Aug 6, 2010
Messages
782
Location
Connecticut
Ferguson_rifle.jpg


The Ferguson flintlock rifle was the first breech loader and was used by the British military in the revolutionary war.
They put it into service in 1776. --->>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferguson_rifle

The NMLRA is not the supreme authority on the definition of what constitutes an antique black powder gun.

Saying that legalizing the Nitrofire will lead to using straight walled cartridges is called a slippery slope argument.
It's a false argument to say that if X happens then Y will happen without a logical reason or connection.
The sky won't fall just because a state decides to allow the Nitrofire to be used during its black powder season.
People can define a muzzle loader, antique weapon, primitive firearm, or black powder gun any way that they want.
Folks are smart enough to learn about all of the different types of historical weapons there were and to decide which types they prefer.
Many types of guns were invented during the entire black powder era that were used in real life.
Just because some were very expensive to make and they didn't produce as many doesn't mean that they didn't exist.
 
Last edited:

Wobblyshot1

Well-Known Member
Joined
Oct 13, 2010
Messages
2,609
Location
Rutherford County
The Ferguson rifle would be illegal to use during Tennessee's ML season. I'd love to have one and would be very happy to use it during the Gun season in Tennessee where it would be a legal.
 

sun

Active Member
Joined
Aug 6, 2010
Messages
782
Location
Connecticut
During the 1970's - 80's, Massachusetts had a "smoothbore only" muzzle loader deer season.
Their deer herd was too small to allow many deer to be killed, so they limited shots to close range.
TC ended up making a .56 smoothbore Renegade mainly for Massachusetts hunters to use.
But that's why there's a lot of those guns around today, all because of MA hunting laws back then.
Now that the deer herds are much larger, the hunting laws have changed to allow more types of weapons and more deer to be harvested.
Every state has different deer management goals based on how many hunters and deer that they have.
 

GMB54

Active Member
Joined
Oct 10, 2014
Messages
901
Location
Missouri
People can define a muzzle loader, antique weapon, primitive firearm, or black powder gun any way that they want.

No they cant. Try basic English please
Muzzle
Loader
They can only define legal methods during their season.

To allow a breech loader or hybrid would make the season something else other than MUZZLE LOADER season. Just like what happened in Missouri (Alternative Season) and Louisiana (Primitive Season). Oddly the NitroFlop rifle is still not legal in either one of those states at this time yet. It would need to be a pistol to be legal in Missouri. Yet both of those states allow a smokeless muzzleloader that is far far superior to the $2.50+ per shot FiddleStick.

They are legal because everything loads through the MUZZLE, hence the name.
Smokeless
Muzzle
Loader

Harry Pope did nearly the exact same thing in the late 1800s and to this day it was never called a muzzloader. It was a breech loader with the projectile loaded through the muzzle.

I can post cute little links too
As related by Harvey Donaldson, Harry’s method of loading a breechloader from the muzzle was as follows: First insert a dummy cartridge (with the mouth of the case plugged) into the rifle’s chamber. Then carefully place the bullet into the rifle’s muzzle and push it down until it touches the dummy round. Withdraw the ramrod slowly so as not to suck the bullet part way up the barrel. Replace the dummy cartridge with a loaded one that had a grease wad on top.

Loading the breechloaders from the muzzle fostered better accuracy because it allowed the bullets to be perfectly centered in the bore when they were seated. It also provided more efficient and effective burning of the powder.
 
Last edited:

sun

Active Member
Joined
Aug 6, 2010
Messages
782
Location
Connecticut
The Nitrofire trademark was registered by the US patent office. --->>> https://uspto.report/TM/88709055

--->>>> Mark For: NITROFIRE® trademark registration is intended to cover the categories of muzzle-loading firearms; Muzzle-loading rifles. <<<<---

Note that it covers "categories of muzzle loading firearms."
A category means a type of muzzle loader that 14 states have approved that regulate 82 million people.
You understand that you or I don't define the term muzzle loader.
The laws define what a muzzle loader is or isn't.
You know what it is, I know what it is, the states are beginning to legally define what it is.
Time will tell whether the rifle will die out or not.
Until then just wait and see what happens.
More game agencies will assess it, make recommendations to state elected officials who will decide whether they want to allow it or not.
Elected officials come and go with each election, and some states are more friendly than others.
Federal, Hodgdon, Traditions and Ardesa aren't going anywhere.
Let the free market consumers and state officials decide the future of the Nitrofire system.
There's 50 states, and who knows how many countries or provinces will eventually allow it.
 
Last edited:

GMB54

Active Member
Joined
Oct 10, 2014
Messages
901
Location
Missouri
Savage has a Trademark and patent too on the MLII so its meaningless to the topic. BIG DEAL, they got a trademark. Virtually every single ML vendor has some kind of trademark and/or patent.
mxluco8.gif
 

MickThompson

Well-Known Member
Joined
Aug 9, 2006
Messages
3,572
Location
Cookeville, Tennessee
During the 1970's - 80's, Massachusetts had a "smoothbore only" muzzle loader deer season.
Their deer herd was too small to allow many deer to be killed, so they limited shots to close range.
TC ended up making a .56 smoothbore Renegade mainly for Massachusetts hunters to use.
But that's why there's a lot of those guns around today, all because of MA hunting laws back then.
Now that the deer herds are much larger, the hunting laws have changed to allow more types of weapons and more deer to be harvested.
Every state has different deer management goals based on how many hunters and deer that they have.
So what you're saying is a muzzleloader manufacturer built a weapon to meet a state's rules instead of expecting the state to bend to them?

Just checking.
 

sun

Active Member
Joined
Aug 6, 2010
Messages
782
Location
Connecticut
Yes and no.
No, It was less about bending and more about simply providing.
It went from no hunting to limited hunting because the deer were just beginning to come back from extinction after being wiped out for 200 years.
Our first deer hunting season in CT was in the 1970's.
The need to have smooth rifles was met so that hunters didn't need to use an old Brown Bess or a fowler that didn't even have a rear sight.

Yes, like the Northwest Edition muzzle loaders that have an exposed action to meet the rules in NW states.
And the Colorado ban on sabots prompted the Federal BOR Lock bullets that have a gasket attached to it that doesn't separate like a sabot would.

But states often change hunting reg's based on the size of their deer herd and management goals.
CT legalized the CVA Electra as a muzzle loader.
It's considered to be loaded until the battery is removed.
Before that change, muzzle loaders had to be percussion or flintlock ignition.

Before that we could only use 1X scopes until the first fast twist guns and then inlines came on the market
Then we were allowed to use high power scopes and sabots, but they moved ML season from Sept. to December when there can be snow and ice.

But these changes are due in part to statistics of car - deer crashes on the roadways.
The insurance companies don't like to see so many crashes, and they advocate for expanded deer hunting through the state game agencies.
 
Last edited:

GMB54

Active Member
Joined
Oct 10, 2014
Messages
901
Location
Missouri
So what you're saying is a muzzleloader manufacturer built a weapon to meet a state's rules instead of expecting the state to bend to them?

Just checking.
Yes that is exactly what he said. Just like companies came up with new straight wall cartridges to meet the requirements of states that only allow certain types of centerfire rounds and/or started making rifles in already approved rounds.
TC ended up making a .56 smoothbore Renegade mainly for Massachusetts hunters to use.

Another spiffy little link from wiki. :D

The cartridge was designed for use in American states that have specific regulations for deer hunting with straight-walled centerfire cartridges
The .350 Legend was designed for deer hunting in states that have specific regulations for straight-walled cartridges, such as Michigan, Ohio and Iowa. Illinois also allows straight-walled cartridges if used with a pistol.
 
Last edited:

Doskil

Active Member
Joined
Sep 23, 2007
Messages
1,116
Location
NC USA
Except the 350 Legend has a legitimate function- for use in areas where discharging a longer range firearm is unsafe or dangerous.

Michigan and Ohio enacted the requirements that created the 350 cartridge to allow folks to use rifles that are "safer" than discharging a 338 ultra mag in a flat landscape.

Now with muzzleloaders getting a longer and longer capable range, states are re thinking these firearms.
 

jetwrnch

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Joined
Aug 22, 2003
Messages
2,072
Location
Kingston
I must be missing something. The regs state that it must be incapable of being loaded from the breech, which it is. I can stuff a bullet down the front of an Encore, remove the breech plug and drop in some pellets. Not wise or accurate, but is IS capable of being charged that way. I guess I need to know more about this latest rifle in order to understand the difference.
 

GMB54

Active Member
Joined
Oct 10, 2014
Messages
901
Location
Missouri
Now with muzzleloaders getting a longer and longer capable range, states are re thinking these firearms.

States never considered the range of the rifle itself or they would know MLs have been deadly at well past 200 yards for over 100 years. Take a fast twist sidelock in 45 shooting a 460gr conical. In the right hands that is an easy 200 yard rifle. Similar rifles have been shooting in 500 yard+ matches for a very very long time. Well before ML seasons were even a thought.

They consider one main thing.....REVENUE from tags and out of state money flowing into the state as a result. Its just economics for the vast majority of states. Its been legal for me to use almost any CF handgun for many years now. I just choose not to use one. I normally hunt the firearms season with everyone else but using a ML or SML. I can only take 1 buck regardless and our "season" comes after firearms. Only time i hunt it is if i got a tag left and its not too cold.
 

sun

Active Member
Joined
Aug 6, 2010
Messages
782
Location
Connecticut
I must be missing something. The regs state that it must be incapable of being loaded from the breech, which it is. I can stuff a bullet down the front of an Encore, remove the breech plug and drop in some pellets. Not wise or accurate, but is IS capable of being charged that way. I guess I need to know more about this latest rifle in order to understand the difference.

There's a shelf or ledge in the Nitrofire bore at the depth where the bullet is intended to be seated.
It serves as a bullet stop and also prevents pellet powder charges from being loaded at the muzzle.

I suppose if someone were to insert a drop tube into the Nitrofire muzzle that they could manage to drop loose powder past the shelf and into an empty Firestick case which serves as a powder chamber of sorts.

But the game agency officials are looking at how the Nitrofire and Encore were intended to be loaded.
Regarding the Encore, perhaps they're more interested in the spirit of the law rather than the letter of the law, and figure that no one would actually load an Encore through the breech.

This 1:00 video displays a graphic of the shelf after the 0:26 mark.

 
Last edited:

Doskil

Active Member
Joined
Sep 23, 2007
Messages
1,116
Location
NC USA
States never considered the range of the rifle itself or they would know MLs have been deadly at well past 200 yards for over 100 years. Take a fast twist sidelock in 45 shooting a 460gr conical. In the right hands that is an easy 200 yard rifle. Similar rifles have been shooting in 500 yard+ matches for a very very long time. Well before ML seasons were even a thought.

90 plus percent of the muzzle loaders being used for hunting in 1970s were slidelocks with open sights where 100 yards shots were long shots.

Not many were using Springfields.

Today almost every Tom, Dick, and Harry has an weather proof inline with a scope that uses smokeless or magnum powders like the 209 powders that easily shoot 200 yards or more.

Thats a big difference. Many more hunters with guns capable of several hundred yards.

Regardless in many states local authorities, and not game departments, set firearms discharge laws.
 

Doskil

Active Member
Joined
Sep 23, 2007
Messages
1,116
Location
NC USA
Looks like the gun makers are lobbying North Carolina to legalize this type of rifle.

I wouldn't be surprised if they are lobbying the TWRA too
 

Woodman

Active Member
Joined
Aug 18, 2000
Messages
270
Location
Blount County, Tn
Looks like the gun makers are lobbying North Carolina to legalize this type of rifle.

I wouldn't be surprised if they are lobbying the TWRA too
Heck..if they are going to "lobby" for something why not go for the single-shot centerfire rifles like Mississippi and forget about this BS offering from Traditions.......JMO.
 

Latest posts

Top