Winchester
Well-Known Member
X2 Smokeless is the only way to fly if your looking for performance!infoman jr. said:
Tell me again why special muzzleloading rifle
- Thread starter Doskil
- Start date
TheLBLman
Well-Known Member
I may be wrong, but am pretty sure you can enjoy shooting your cap & ball blackpowder Hawken now, during any statewide deer season segment other than the archery-only.TAFKAP said:
Well sure, but the point I was trying to make was that modern in-line muzzleloaders don't strike me as being in the spirit of intent for having a muzzleloader season. I know there's still the single-shot handicap, but with a ballistics profile more similar to a modern cartridge round, I think it'd be neat to split muzzleloader season out into a primitive-only weekend.
Just thinking aloud....I'm not complaining about it by any meansr
Just thinking aloud....I'm not complaining about it by any meansr
KPH
Well-Known Member
It has gotten to the point where both archery and muzzle loading seasons are nothing but for money making.Doskil said:
TheLBLman
Well-Known Member
In times past, the real "significant restrictions" of muzzleloader hunting in TN (having little impact to the deer herd) was mainly the fact that few people had them, and when they got them, most were quite unreliable (at least compared to today's modern inlines). But in 2014, we can expect more bucks to be killed for the year during the early muzzleloader season than in the traditional "deer" season (using centerfire rifles).megalomaniac said:
It kinda seems a bit "unfair" to those just wanting to "try" deer hunting, and those maybe not wanting/able to buy a "special" weapon, as they are less able to participate in the first opportunities before so many of the bucks have already been killed. This can even be a significant financial issue for those with children they're wanting to participate in these better deer hunting opportunities (such as the early muzzleloader segment).
And if you're a more average deer hunter, maybe only deer hunting a couple weekends a year, do you want to hunt with the most effective weapon (likely the only one you own) or the least effective weapon (you would be required to additionally purchase)? Should you be disallowed from hunting the best hunting days (by the calender and by the rut timing) simply because you are NOT a more avid hunter who owns a larger quantity of specialized weaponry?
TheLBLman
Well-Known Member
More and more, I see much merit in simply having a "deer" season, and letting the hunters hunt with whatever weapons most enthuse them. Why should "special" weapons (where the only thing really special is one's ability to purchase them) be reason to grant special privilege via getting to hunt not just ahead of those who simply own a "deer" rifle, but in many cases the special privilege allows for the hunting of the very best rut days (when bucks move most) of the entire year?
Think about it.
A huge percentage of today's archery hunters are very avid and accomplished deer hunters who are more "effective" with their modern archery equipment than less experienced hunters are with centerfire rifles. A huge percentage of today's muzzleloader hunters are very avid and accomplished deer hunters who are more "effective" with their modern muzzleloaders than less experienced hunters are with centerfire rifles.
It wasn't this way when archery & muzzleloader season segments originally began. We were shooting zero percent let-off recurve bows without sights, no mechanical releases, and cedar arrows. My personal first archery deer was with just such. Our muzzleloaders were mostly sidelocks without optical sights, and were often less reliable and less effective than our recurve bows. I didn't participate in the first few years of TN's muzzleloader season, not because I didn't want to, but simply because I truly couldn't afford the extra cost at the time.
Personally, I enjoy hunting with whatever weapon is in my hand. But I have to ponder whether I really deserve special privilege just because I'm an avid hunter able to own modern bows and special muzzleloaders that are far more accurate and deadly than any .30/.30 ever was. While I may spend more days afield with a bow or a muzzleloader in my hand (than a centerfire rifle), I consider myself a "deer" hunter more than a "bow" or "muzzleloader" hunter, and think many avid hunters are like me, in being more enthused about the actual hunting than the weapon in hand.
Some are more enthused about their weapons, so just hunt with what enthuses you most. The question today now becomes, "Does one deserve special privilege just because of how he loads his gun? Or weather the projectile is a deadly bullet or a deadly arrow?
We are all "deer" hunters.
Think about it.
A huge percentage of today's archery hunters are very avid and accomplished deer hunters who are more "effective" with their modern archery equipment than less experienced hunters are with centerfire rifles. A huge percentage of today's muzzleloader hunters are very avid and accomplished deer hunters who are more "effective" with their modern muzzleloaders than less experienced hunters are with centerfire rifles.
It wasn't this way when archery & muzzleloader season segments originally began. We were shooting zero percent let-off recurve bows without sights, no mechanical releases, and cedar arrows. My personal first archery deer was with just such. Our muzzleloaders were mostly sidelocks without optical sights, and were often less reliable and less effective than our recurve bows. I didn't participate in the first few years of TN's muzzleloader season, not because I didn't want to, but simply because I truly couldn't afford the extra cost at the time.
Personally, I enjoy hunting with whatever weapon is in my hand. But I have to ponder whether I really deserve special privilege just because I'm an avid hunter able to own modern bows and special muzzleloaders that are far more accurate and deadly than any .30/.30 ever was. While I may spend more days afield with a bow or a muzzleloader in my hand (than a centerfire rifle), I consider myself a "deer" hunter more than a "bow" or "muzzleloader" hunter, and think many avid hunters are like me, in being more enthused about the actual hunting than the weapon in hand.
Some are more enthused about their weapons, so just hunt with what enthuses you most. The question today now becomes, "Does one deserve special privilege just because of how he loads his gun? Or weather the projectile is a deadly bullet or a deadly arrow?
We are all "deer" hunters.
landman
Well-Known Member
Wes Parrish said:
Its the money...
Lobbyist pushed the crossbow in..
MZ same way, I'm sure they will say it was the hunters, but we know it wasn't
You have a VERY GOOD point about the MZ season, those 2 weeks will hammer more deer, and it is an added cost to be able to hunt with one. And I know several that have to wait until rifle opens to hunt, I see many youth deer rifles sold, but not so many buying a mz for their kids
Wes Parrish said:
So by that virtue, should we eliminate archery season? I can buy a cheapo Hawken for a quarter of the cost of a name-brand compound bow��should we open rifle season in September to let everyone have a chance?
I like the 3-season system in place now because there is the intent to graduate the difficulty and methods. But it seems disingenuous to call the 4-weeks between archery and rifle "muzzleloader" as if it is a handicapped system. (3) Pyrodex pellets and a high-performance sabot round are very likely to outperform my Marlin .30-30. If they intend to really handicap the hunters, I think it'd be appropriate to have a "primitive" season for cap & ball rifles, flintlocks, and blackpowder revolvers (maybe for 2 weeks after archery) followed by a "muzzleloader" season, where a single-shot rifle might also be allowed.
Again, just a thought.
landman said:
I was pretty much the administrator when the first crossbow for disabled hunters started. Trying to fairly deal with the level of disabilities led to a series of relaxing the levels by the Commission. After several years of increasing numbers, it was finally judged to not be a biological issue and was legalized for all hunters.
Lobbyists had ZERO to do with getting it legalized in TN.
TheLBLman
Well-Known Member
I'm not one calling for an elimination of either archery or muzzleloader season segments. Just saying I'm more and more seeing the merits of simply having a "deer" season, and letting the hunters hunt with whatever weapons enthuse them most. Even though, for very avid hunters like myself, it could mean fewer days afield and lower deer limits. But I bet it would be a more popular idea with the vast majority of "deer" hunters?
I am opposed to any new "special" privileges just because a certain group of enthusiasts about a certain weapon want a "special" time in the woods, just for them.
And it's now a valid point that both today's archery equipment and today's muzzleloaders are no longer the "special challenges" they were when TN began both the archery and the muzzleloader season segments. Originally, much of the reason these "special" seasons were ALLOWED was because it was felt so few deer would be harvested that they were biologically of little issue to the deer management.
My thoughts are more about promoting deer hunting and uniting deer hunters, than about dividing hunters by promoting special interests in particular weapons.
I am opposed to any new "special" privileges just because a certain group of enthusiasts about a certain weapon want a "special" time in the woods, just for them.
And it's now a valid point that both today's archery equipment and today's muzzleloaders are no longer the "special challenges" they were when TN began both the archery and the muzzleloader season segments. Originally, much of the reason these "special" seasons were ALLOWED was because it was felt so few deer would be harvested that they were biologically of little issue to the deer management.
No, I personally am not wanting to eliminate archery season, and agree with you regarding what's quoted above. Just saying granting even yet more special weapon privileges is going the wrong direction, as it becomes more a divider of hunters than a uniting of hunters. If anything, I'd just change the muzzleloader season segment to "anything goes" (as in the traditional "rifle" segment). But would not grant special privilege to only a particular centerfire gun or caliber during muzzleloader(as they have done in Mississippi).TAFKAP said:
My thoughts are more about promoting deer hunting and uniting deer hunters, than about dividing hunters by promoting special interests in particular weapons.
megalomaniac
Well-Known Member
Mississippi does not have any weapon restriction during primitive weapon season from this point forward. You can use any weapon you choose, but must still buy the primitive weapon license to hunt during that timeframe (so there is no revenue lost... in fact, it will probably result in an INREASE in revenue to the state, as some who didn't bother hunting with a traditional muzzleloader will now be able to hunt with their regular centerfire rifle if they so choose and purchase the extra license).
It is the wave of the future... I suspect most states with an abundance of big game will be going this route.
Personally, I could care less for myself... I have 5 muzzleloaders. But I'm at the point where I'd rather my kids shoot a deer than myself.... and my kids are too young to handle the recoil of a muzzleloader. So in essence, they are being excluded from hunting during the most productive times on my TN farms. And no, I'm not going out to buy yet another stupid hunting device- crossbow- for them to use... tired of playing the game of having to buy a million different weapons when there is no sound biological reason to do so.
It is the wave of the future... I suspect most states with an abundance of big game will be going this route.
Personally, I could care less for myself... I have 5 muzzleloaders. But I'm at the point where I'd rather my kids shoot a deer than myself.... and my kids are too young to handle the recoil of a muzzleloader. So in essence, they are being excluded from hunting during the most productive times on my TN farms. And no, I'm not going out to buy yet another stupid hunting device- crossbow- for them to use... tired of playing the game of having to buy a million different weapons when there is no sound biological reason to do so.
WRbowhunter
Well-Known Member
I said this in another post. Another GREAT thing about hunting in TN you can hunt the way you want. In this case if you want to bow hunt, then buy a bow, IF you want to Muzzleloader hunt by one of those. To me it just like Trophy hunting vs Meat hunting. Just because you don't want to bow hunt then no one should get to hunt when you can't just like no one should be able to shoot small bucks because your trying to trophy hunt.TWRA does a great job in keeping everyone's options available. I will say this though I was against crossbows being used during Archery season but I was wrong. While they do have some advantages to a compound they also have some disadvantages and anything that gets more people into Archery or hunting for that matter is a good thing.
Does anyone believe that, if we go to just "deer" season, that there may be a decline in archery or ML hunting? I love to hunt deer, and would probably use a rifle just about exclusively bc of the effectiveness of the kill, but having different segments just adds to the diversity for me. I won't say that it forces me to use a different weapon, but it does expand and enrich my hunting experience, imo of course. I know, I know, I could use whatever weapon I choose, anytime I choose, but I do like having a weapon specific segmented season, and it also doesn't hurt the herd dynamics either.
TheLBLman
Well-Known Member
VERY FEW deer hunters would head afield with either a bow or a muzzleloader if more effective weapons were legal instead. Just note now how few carry a bow during the TN rifle season. So, "yes" there would be a dramatic decline in archery and ML hunting.MUP said:
On the other hand, there might be an INCREASE in deer hunting, which is why I stated earlier this COULD necessitate (but I believe only slightly) lower deer limits and fewer deer hunting days annually.
Perhaps a better question might become:
"How many more people would be going deer hunting, if 'deer' season simply began October 15,
ended December 31, and all hunters could use whatever weapon they preferred?
Perhaps with a simple 2-buck limit, 2-doe limit, with additional antlerless opportunities in certain units/counties?"
Now, the more selfish side of me really doesn't want any more deer hunters afield, and I personally enjoy having the woods more to myself when I'm deer hunting in October (and limited to a bow). But at the same time, I realize the deer herd is expanding it's range, and increasing it's numbers, while the number of hunters (particularly the number of collective hunter hours afield annually) is decreasing.
My opinion is we still might not have that many more hunters afield in October even if "any" weapon were legal. Such a change would mainly just make it "easier" for the less avid hunters and less costly for anyone to participate in either going deer hunting and/or in going deer hunting more often. Sure would "simplify" things.
TheLBLman
Well-Known Member
And at the same time we "ponder" all these thoughts, let's keep in mind there is a growing opportunity for archery-only deer hunting, whereby the "archery-only" is for safety concerns both in and near metropolitan and suburban areas. A great example of this is President's Island WMA being "archery only" because the City of Memphis will not allow firearms to be used there.
For those who are truly more into archery than deer hunting, many archery enthusiasts form or join archery-only deer hunting clubs, whereby the land they hunt is limited to archery by themselves, even though the state regs would otherwise allow gun hunting.
I am all for promoting archery, just questioning whether that special interest deserves additional special privilege (within our statewide hunting regs) when it comes to "statewide" deer hunting.
For those who are truly more into archery than deer hunting, many archery enthusiasts form or join archery-only deer hunting clubs, whereby the land they hunt is limited to archery by themselves, even though the state regs would otherwise allow gun hunting.
I am all for promoting archery, just questioning whether that special interest deserves additional special privilege (within our statewide hunting regs) when it comes to "statewide" deer hunting.
woodsman87
Well-Known Member
Ready for muzzleloader season....
TheLBLman
Well-Known Member
I'm actually glad to hear Mississippi made this change, as I thought it was just another caving to special interests when they started allowing "certain" centerfire guns/cartridges during the muzzleloader season. What they did is a great de facto expansion of the "juvenile" deer-hunting opportunities, and may very well help get more kids into hunting.megalomaniac said:
WRbowhunter
Well-Known Member
Why is having a special Juvenile hunt a very effective way into getting more kids hunting but having an Archery season and MZ season not. Kids can hunt any time during deer season . Could be by having a "special season" you draw importance to the diversity and traditions of hunting and opens up that area of hunting that maybe people would not try unless there was a special season for it. Again everyone in the state has the opportunity to hunt all styles of hunting which keep traditions alive.
Mike Belt
Well-Known Member
If given the opportunity to hit the woods at any time with any weapon I'd personally opt for my most effective weapon...my rifle. Having said that I still like the "progressiveness" involved in difficulty per weapon type of hunting season from hardest to harder to hard. Each change in hunting season makes me appreciate more both the weapon I'm laying down and the weapon I'm picking up. However, to sort of contradict myself, I do believe that archery season (or the presence and influx of hunters/deer scouters prior to "prime time hunting") probably saves more bucks down the road during rifle season than they are the demise of during archery season itself. If deer season was any weapon I don't doubt more hunters would be afield earlier making it harder hunting when that prime time came.
I use an inline muzzleloader and granted, cleaning it is more involved and time consuming. I still find it comical that so many complain about that process. During hunting season it's not like you're firing shot after shot with it or that one can't spare 15 minutes of time for cleaning it when they do. Human nature to complain I guess?
As for muzzleloader season's split into different types of weaponry seasons I'd vote against it.
I use an inline muzzleloader and granted, cleaning it is more involved and time consuming. I still find it comical that so many complain about that process. During hunting season it's not like you're firing shot after shot with it or that one can't spare 15 minutes of time for cleaning it when they do. Human nature to complain I guess?
As for muzzleloader season's split into different types of weaponry seasons I'd vote against it.
landman
Well-Known Member
scn said:
If the cross bow industry hadn't have made the push
Years ago in other states, Which made them produced
in great numbers and more popular, thus TN saw more
handicap hunters using them. So they DID have
a lot to do with it
landman said:
I can't speak for other states. Lobbyist had ZERO to do with any of the decisions made in TN.
- Joined
- Sep 27, 2010
- Messages
- 13,575
:whistle: :D
Winchester
Well-Known Member
I think our seasons are fine just the way they are. I would hate to see the heritages lost to simply having a "deer season".
megalomaniac
Well-Known Member
LOL, 'heritages' are already lost in ML season... just look at the gun that started this topic and all the references to savage smokeless.
Love him or hate him, Tony Knight ended the 'heritage' portion of 'primitive' weapon season.
Now I don't blame hunters... why not push the envelope and develop new technologies which nonexistent when the original seasons were made and use a weapon which extends effective distance for that season by 3 or 4 fold...
But if we are keeping ML season for the heritage, we need to go back to percussion caps, patch and ball or buffalo bullets, and black powder. The newfangled 'primitive' weapons just force the majority of the hunters to spend extra money to keep up with the Jones'es
Love him or hate him, Tony Knight ended the 'heritage' portion of 'primitive' weapon season.
Now I don't blame hunters... why not push the envelope and develop new technologies which nonexistent when the original seasons were made and use a weapon which extends effective distance for that season by 3 or 4 fold...
But if we are keeping ML season for the heritage, we need to go back to percussion caps, patch and ball or buffalo bullets, and black powder. The newfangled 'primitive' weapons just force the majority of the hunters to spend extra money to keep up with the Jones'es
TheLBLman
Well-Known Member
While you make a valid point, I'll take it back a step farther and just ask exactly what heritage are we talking about?megalomaniac said:
Our real deer hunting heritage has been with the most effective weapons of the times. We have a heritage of deer hunting, more than any heritage of special enthusiasms for particular weapons.
Daniel Boone and Davy Crockett would never have headed afield with a flintlock muzzleloader had they owned a gun anything like a modern centerfire rifle. As soon as Native Americans gained access to guns, they essentially stopped hunting with spears and arrows.
Our real heritage is hunting.
As previously stated, I am not pushing to do away with our "special weapons" season segments (archery & muzzleloader) in Tennessee. I'm just generally opposed to expanding them, instead of or at the expense of hunting in general (with any weapon of choice).
TheLBLman
Well-Known Member
By the way, my personal early deer-hunting heritage includes zero muzzleloader season segments. I was introduced to deer hunting by my grandfather and uncle. Neither of them ever owned a muzzleloader, and neither did I until after I had killed scores of deer and was about 25 years old.
I was in my 20's when TWRA started their first "special" muzzleloader season segment. Prior to that, the archery season ended on October 31st, and there simply was no deer hunting until "gun" season opened in late November. Like many other avid deer hunters, I had no "special" interest in any muzzleloader. I just had a special interest in getting to do more deer hunting. But like many young family people (and juvenile hunters), I couldn't justify the extra costs of muzzleloading, and didn't participate initially.
In retrospect, instead of creating a special interest muzzleloader season segment back in the 80's, it would have been more beneficial to more hunters (particularly juvenile hunters, the real future of our hunting heritage) had both the existing archery and rifle deer seasons simply had days added to close that gap between them. This would have created new deer hunting opportunities for all deer hunters, without causing anyone to have to spend extra money in buying a different weapon to participate.
Imagine. Archery season could have simply been extended until around November 15, then firearm deer season could begin. And if you wanted to use a muzzleloader during the firearm season segment, fine. So simple, nothing new to buy. There would be no such thing as a Savage Smokeless muzzleloader, and few of us ever would have heard of Tony Knight.
It is hunting that is most special, not the weapon.
In fact, my first many deer that were killed with a gun, were killed with the same shotgun I used for small game. Didn't even own a centerfire deer rifle until I was 20 years old.
I was in my 20's when TWRA started their first "special" muzzleloader season segment. Prior to that, the archery season ended on October 31st, and there simply was no deer hunting until "gun" season opened in late November. Like many other avid deer hunters, I had no "special" interest in any muzzleloader. I just had a special interest in getting to do more deer hunting. But like many young family people (and juvenile hunters), I couldn't justify the extra costs of muzzleloading, and didn't participate initially.
In retrospect, instead of creating a special interest muzzleloader season segment back in the 80's, it would have been more beneficial to more hunters (particularly juvenile hunters, the real future of our hunting heritage) had both the existing archery and rifle deer seasons simply had days added to close that gap between them. This would have created new deer hunting opportunities for all deer hunters, without causing anyone to have to spend extra money in buying a different weapon to participate.
Imagine. Archery season could have simply been extended until around November 15, then firearm deer season could begin. And if you wanted to use a muzzleloader during the firearm season segment, fine. So simple, nothing new to buy. There would be no such thing as a Savage Smokeless muzzleloader, and few of us ever would have heard of Tony Knight.
It is hunting that is most special, not the weapon.
In fact, my first many deer that were killed with a gun, were killed with the same shotgun I used for small game. Didn't even own a centerfire deer rifle until I was 20 years old.
TheLBLman
Well-Known Member
I'm just thankful the same "special" season-segment logic isn't applied to fishing as is being applied to hunting. Otherwise, we'd have cane-pole fishing tackle only during the month of March, cane-pole-fly-fishing tackle only during the month of April, and all-tackle-goes come May.
We have a heritage of hunting & fishing, much more so than any "heritage" of doing so with a particular weapon or pole.
We have a heritage of hunting & fishing, much more so than any "heritage" of doing so with a particular weapon or pole.
