Some Ames Stats...

[Mike Belt]

Harvest Records For 2012

Does:

Age/ Average Weight/ # Killed
-1.5/ 41.7/ 20
1.5/ 69.2/ 29
2.5/ 80.5/ 25
3.5/ 87.6/ 38
4.5/ 92.0/ 21
5.5/ 85.7/ 10

Bucks:

Age/ Average Weight/ # Killed/ Average Score
-1.5/ 49.2/ 26/
1.5/ 86.6/ 3/ Spikes
2.5/ 130.3/ 3/ 116.7
3.5/ 142.4/ 14/ 127.1
4.5/ 147.6/ 8/ 134.7
5.5/ 149.6/ 3/ 134.9

Observation Data:

Hours Hunted 9964
Shooter Sightings 159 (B&C score of 125 or 4.5+ years)
Other Bucks 2528
Does 4293
Fawns 1234
Unknowns 846
Total Deer 9060
Deer/Hour .91
Bucks/Hour .28
Does/Hour .43
Buck:Doe 1:1.6

The 3 interesting things that jump out at me are:
1)Our 4.5 year old does weighed on average 6.3 pounds more than our 5.5 year old does
2)On average the score on our 5.5 year old bucks only averaged .1 more than our 4.5 year old bucks and only 1 pound heavier
3)We killed too many button bucks. 46% of our buck kill were button bucks

 

[BSK]

Fascinating stats Mike. Thanks for posting them.

I'm guessing the listed average weights are field-dressed weights?

 

[Andy S.]

I'm guessing the listed average weights are field-dressed weights?

Yes. We rarely have a hunter that is gung-ho enough to bring a deer in whole. With that said, Ames biologists and staff have encouraged us to do so, mainly so we could start obtaining localized data of weight on hoof versus field dressed weight.

 

[Andy S.]

We killed too many button bucks. 46% of our buck kill were button bucks.

Yes indeed. I hope Ames' biologists revisit the subtle differences at the supper this fall so the membership as a whole can brush up on deciphering buttons versus yearling does, especially during late season.

 

[redblood]

wow. 46 percent button buck harvest. how does that happen.

 

[Andy S.]

wow. 46 percent button buck harvest. how does that happen.

Our goal/threshold on buttons is 10% of doe harvest or less. For example, we typically shoot 160-180 does a season, so killing 16-18 button bucks is deemed acceptable if you will. This year we killed 27 buttons. Furthermore, I'm fairly certain we killed 3 spikes, all mistaken for does, thus we killed 30 male deer that were yearlings or buttons. The reason this kill makes up 47% of the overall buck kill is because we typically only kill 25 or so shooters total all season (>125" gross or 4.5 yrs old) and maybe 3-5 bucks that were mistaken for shooters but came up short. So in a nutshell, our "shooter" buck harvest is around 25 bucks or so each fall, 5 bucks by mistake, and this year we had 27 buttons killed as well, thus resulting in 46% of the buck harvest. I do not have all of the data in front of me, so I could be off by a few here and there, but this is pretty close as far as the big picture goes. Hope this helps.

 

[Mike Belt]

Andy...I heard rumors that there may have to be some type of penalty for buttons or at least the repeated event by the same hunter. I killed a button last year or the year before so I know it happens but I'd say it's 90% hunter error. That other 10% is our 10% margin which is acceptable. Maybe there needs to be a penalty if a group of hunters under a management scenario and have been for years can't do any better than 46% of the total harvest being button bucks. I think that for the same reason that the bucks under our minimum are killed we're killing so many buttons...some people feel like they just have to kill something and shoot first and then ground check. Without having a monetary penalty we might could count a button as one of our legal bucks. Maybe that'd slow it down some.

By the way, how's that baby girl doing?

 

[redblood]

wow. 46 percent button buck harvest. how does that happen.

Our goal/threshold on buttons is 10% of doe harvest or less. For example, we typically shoot 160-180 does a season, so killing 16-18 button bucks is deemed acceptable if you will. This year we killed 27 buttons. Furthermore, I'm fairly certain we killed 3 spikes, all mistaken for does, thus we killed 30 male deer that were yearlings or buttons. The reason this kill makes up 47% of the overall buck kill is because we typically only kill 25 or so shooters total all season (>125" gross or 4.5 yrs old) and maybe 3-5 bucks that were mistaken for shooters but came up short. So in a nutshell, our "shooter" buck harvest is around 25 bucks or so each fall, 5 bucks by mistake, and this year we had 27 buttons killed as well, thus resulting in 46% of the buck harvest. I do not have all of the data in front of me, so I could be off by a few here and there, but this is pretty close as far as the big picture goes. Hope this helps.

were most killed on the juvy hunts? i wouldnt expect experienced qdm hunters to make that error at such a high frequency

 

[Andy S.]

Andy...I heard rumors that there may have to be some type of penalty for buttons or at least the repeated event by the same hunter.

I'm all for this. Maybe not a significant fee, but at least something to get one's attention.

I killed a button last year or the year before so I know it happens...

I've goofed before too. It was late season with a rifle few years back and I was hell-bent on killing a doe that afternoon. A big doe walked out of the pines, followed by a "small/medium sized doe" and then two small fawns came out, all at 100 yards or so through the hardwoods. I never could get a clear shot on the big doe, then they started getting antsy and appeared to be leaving, so I shot the "small/medium sized doe" in a hastily manner. That doe turned out to be a button head. I cussed myself 100 times for that, not so much because I killed a button, but because of my lack of focus and oversight that led to my decision to shoot.

...but I'd say it's 90% hunter error.

I agree 100%.

Without having a monetary penalty we might could count a button as one of our legal bucks. Maybe that'd slow it down some.

I'd go along with this especially if it was a hunter's second button. In essence, I'd give a hunter one goof, but the second one would cost him/her.

By the way, how's that baby girl doing?

She appears to be doing good. We went to her first pediatrician appointment yesterday and he said she looked great and he had no concerns. We still have to go back to the neurologist and neurosurgeon in a few weeks for a follow up. I'm hoping and praying they give us a good report too. Thanks for asking Mike.

 

[Andy S.]

were most killed on the juvy hunts?

I do not have the harvest data in front of me, but I'd bet not.

..i wouldnt expect experienced qdm hunters to make that error at such a high frequency

Tell me about it. Like I said, our threshold this year would have been 16 buttons, or 10% of the doe harvest, but we blew that out of the water and shot 27 buttons, in addition to 3 spikes. If I am not mistaken, this is the most buttons we have killed in a single season in a decade. There may have been one other season where we killed this many, but that season may have been one of the few we knocked down 225+ does too, thus making the number of buttons a little more acceptable if you will.

 

[Mike Belt]

redblood...For the most part these buttons came from experienced deer hunters that have been under the management program for several years. Maybe their dues ought to be higher than others....

 

[Football Hunter]

wow. 46 percent button buck harvest. how does that happen.

Yeah,thats tough,I havent killed one in years,makes me sick when it happens.

 

[Football Hunter]

redblood...For the most part these buttons came from experienced deer hunters that have been under the management program for several years. Maybe their dues ought to be higher than others....

Id agree with that,thats seems crazy high to me,although Im sure BSK will say it will adversly decrease the doe harvest,but man,it aint that hard.

 

[ROUGH COUNTRY HUNTER]

good information

 

[fairchaser]

Having a penalty for BB would IMO decrease the doe harvest. There are hunters like me that will only eat one doe per season. I kill more if I can find those that want the meat. I like to help out the program too. I have not made the mistake at Ames yet but have before so I know how easy it is. I won't shoot a lone doe unless I can stare at its head with binos at close range. Even then it's tough. If you put a penalty on me, I might only shoot the minimum does required. It's not money as much as the idea of being penalized. Been there and don't like it very much. I think keeping the doe harvest up is more important than one years BB harvest.

 

[Bucks & Beards]

Mike
Don't you think it is better to discuss the button buck harvest percentage by comparing it to the total antlerless harvest instead of the total buck harvest? When you compare it to the antlerless harvest the percentage according to Allan was 15%...not acceptable, but understandable when antlerless deer are aggressively targeted.

 

[Bucks & Beards]

Having a penalty for BB would IMO decrease the doe harvest. There are hunters like me that will only eat one doe per season. I kill more if I can find those that want the meat. I like to help out the program too. I have not made the mistake at Ames yet but have before so I know how easy it is. I won't shoot a lone doe unless I can stare at its head with binos at close range. Even then it's tough. If you put a penalty on me, I might only shoot the minimum does required. It's not money as much as the idea of being penalized. Been there and don't like it very much. I think keeping the doe harvest up is more important than one years BB harvest.

x 2 fairchaser

 

[SEC]

A small deer walking around by itself acting stupid is most likely a button buck. I eat many deer per year 90% being doe's. I have killed one button buck in the last 8 or 10 years.

 

[Bucks & Beards]

A small deer walking around by itself acting stupid is most likely a button buck. I eat many deer per year 90% being doe's. I have killed one button buck in the last 8 or 10 years.

SEC
Do you get a cranky letter from the manager of your hunting property in mid-December telling you to hammer the antlerless deer? We usually do at Ames. By then the mature does are really educated and satisfying the antlerless goal for the property is not as easy as it seems. Again, over 10% of the antlerless harvest is unacceptable, but understandable with the unique conditions sometimes at Ames.

 

[Andy S.]

In my opinion, repeated button buck harvest in a single year (more than one per fall) by a seasoned QDM hunter is unacceptable and a demonstration of carelessness and hastily made decisions. It happens, just as I outlined earlier about myself, but with our core membership I think we have A LOT of room for improvement. In my way of thinking, if the threshold is 10% of anterless harvest, then we as seasoned QDM hunters/QDM club should beat that number every year, however, we never have to my knowledge. I would like to see a button buck harvest versus date of kill plotted. I may be mistaken, but I have a sneaky suspicion it will show many of the buttons killed later in the year, say after Thanksgiving, when many of the buttons are the size of a small/medium sized doe and running around like they have no care in the world. It seems every year the buttons hit the ground hard in December at Ames. As I oftentimes say, their will be little to no lasting change if their is no consequence for one's action. We need to do better in the future. My .02

 

[BSK]

wow. 46 percent button buck harvest. how does that happen.

Our goal/threshold on buttons is 10% of doe harvest or less. For example, we typically shoot 160-180 does a season, so killing 16-18 button bucks is deemed acceptable if you will. This year we killed 27 buttons. Furthermore, I'm fairly certain we killed 3 spikes, all mistaken for does, thus we killed 30 male deer that were yearlings or buttons.

Andy S.,

You are correct that sub-legal males as a percent of the total antlerless harvest is the proper measuring device. If the numbers posted by Mike are correct (26 button bucks, 3 spikes, and 143 females in the antlerless harvest, for a total antlerless harvest of 172), the button buck and spike kills make up 17% of the antlerless harvest. That's certainly above what you would want to see, but not disastrously high.

 

[BSK]

if a group of hunters under a management scenario and have been for years can't do any better than 46% of the total harvest being button bucks.

Mike,

The percent of the male harvest that is button bucks is a meaningless number. What if hunters only killed 1 button buck and one antlered buck? One button buck wouldn't be a high button buck kill at all, yet from a total of 2 males killed, button bucks made up 50%. That sounds terrible, but isn't.

 

[BigGameGuy]

Mike, what is the total acreage of Ames?

 

[redblood]

if a group of hunters under a management scenario and have been for years can't do any better than 46% of the total harvest being button bucks.

Mike,

The percent of the male harvest that is button bucks is a meaningless number. What if hunters only killed 1 button buck and one antlered buck? One button buck wouldn't be a high button buck kill at all, yet from a total of 2 males killed, button bucks made up 50%. That sounds terrible, but isn't.

maybe not, but if i hunted there (and i dont) i would probably WANT MANAGEMENT to educate hunters of the importance of differentiating between a button buck and a doe. when in doubt....DONT

 

[Mike Belt]

BGG---
I think we have about 18,600 acres divided into 5 units (1-5) This year we seemed to distribute the doe and antlerless kill much better than in year's past.
Unit 1..2558 acres..24 deer killed..17% of total harvest
Unit 2..2650 acres..29 deer killed..20% of total harvest
Unit 3..5108 acres..32 deer killed..22% of total harvest
Unit 4..5521 acres..39 deer killed..27% of total harvest
Unit 5..2709 acres..19 deer killed..13% of total harvest

In the past most of our doe kills were represented from areas 3, 4, and 5 which are the only areas we have any agricultural crops. Hunting is somewhat easier in these areas with more access. Areas 1 and 2 have no agriculture and much of the land is cutover regrowth or some stage of pine plantings rendering extremely hard hunting. There is also less access to these 2 areas although some ATV access was made more available this past season which helped to balance our doe kill per area.



BSK---
I see your point. The button buck/antlerless kill should be represented as 15-17% of the kill. Still way too high (IMO) for an experienced QDM club.

 

[Mike Belt]

The idea that any penalty for killing excessive button bucks may decrease the overall doe kill numbers is valid...to a point. I could understand that concept on public land or anywhere that John Q. was hunting. For a QDM oriented club, and particularly for one that has maintained it's core membership for several years, I would like to think that those hunters were at a different level. I'm not saying that they may be better hunters than John Q. but their mindset when afield should be a little different. Just my opinion...

 

[scn]

Andy...I heard rumors that there may have to be some type of penalty for buttons or at least the repeated event by the same hunter.

I'm all for this. Maybe not a significant fee, but at least something to get one's attention.

I killed a button last year or the year before so I know it happens...

I've goofed before too. It was late season with a rifle few years back and I was hell-bent on killing a doe that afternoon. A big doe walked out of the pines, followed by a "small/medium sized doe" and then two small fawns came out, all at 100 yards or so through the hardwoods. I never could get a clear shot on the big doe, then they started getting antsy and appeared to be leaving, so I shot the "small/medium sized doe" in a hastily manner. That doe turned out to be a button head. I cussed myself 100 times for that, not so much because I killed a button, but because of my lack of focus and oversight that led to my decision to shoot.

...but I'd say it's 90% hunter error.

I agree 100%.

Without having a monetary penalty we might could count a button as one of our legal bucks. Maybe that'd slow it down some.

I'd go along with this especially if it was a hunter's second button. In essence, I'd give a hunter one goof, but the second one would cost him/her.

By the way, how's that baby girl doing?

She appears to be doing good. We went to her first pediatrician appointment yesterday and he said she looked great and he had no concerns. We still have to go back to the neurologist and neurosurgeon in a few weeks for a follow up. I'm hoping and

praying they give us a good report too. Thanks for asking Mike.

Thanks for the great update on your daughter. Prayers continue.

 

[Bone Collector]

So I have a couple of questions. I have heard about this Ames Plantation since i got on here, but that is alot of deer.

How many acres is it and how many people hunt it?

 

[Andy S.]

Mike, what is the total acreage of Ames?

18,600 acres, with about 13,600 open for hunting to members.

 

[Andy S.]

... how many people hunt it?

Membership this past season was right at 70 members. Ames employees that deer hunt add another 5 hunters or so, and they sometimes bring guests. The most I recall seeing out there this past fall was 50 or so at the same time, and that is typically opening weekend of muzzleloader, opening rifle, or Thanksgiving weekend.