Smokeless Smokeless muzzleloaders ?

[NChunt1]

Okay guys I've been doing some looking and I've seen some pretty good-looking smokeless muzzleloaders I really don't know anything about them so I'm looking for someone to school me on smokeless verse stander muzzleloaders and the benefits of going smokeless. I currently have Remington Genesis and it has served me well but I'm always looking to upgrade equipment so I was thinking about checking out smokeless muzzleloaders for next season. Thanks

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[lapuafan]

Okay guys I've been doing some looking and I've seen some pretty good-looking smokeless muzzleloaders I really don't know anything about them so I'm looking for someone to school me on smokeless verse stander muzzleloaders and the benefits of going smokeless. I currently have Remington Genesis and it has served me well but I'm always looking to upgrade equipment so I was thinking about checking out smokeless muzzleloaders for next season. Thanks

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Well in smokeless it's like anything else. What can your pocketbook stand. What is your main purpose of it ? How far are you wanting shoot ? So many diffrent routes.
I started out with savage smokeless, then upgraded to a gunwerks, then had a 45 built, and in process of having a new 45 built for long range hunting and shooting.

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[fairchaser]

Smokeless is the only way to fly. The only drawback is the price to get one. You will need access to a good scale and you can put away all your 50 caliber stuff. Personally I bought one already set up with a tested load. That made things much simpler and easier and probably cheaper because people are always upgrading. Peruse the smokeless sites for second hand conversions and you will probably get a deal versus converting your own.

 

[NChunt1]

I was looking at converting a cva scout 45-70 I heard that was a good way to start. I will be hunting but would like to have a 300 yard gun. What kind of advantages will a smokeless have over a regular muzzleloader

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[Jcalder]

I was looking at converting a cva scout 45-70 I heard that was a good way to start. I will be hunting but would like to have a 300 yard gun. What kind of advantages will a smokeless have over a regular muzzleloader

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biggest advantage is not having to clean the stinking thing after you shoot it. That by itself is worth the extra cost. They also shoot pretty good and consistent shot to shot. Should push a 275 grain bullet 2550 FPS or so sabotless. I'm thinking a sabot load was around 2650, 200gr sst


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[ADR]

I was looking at converting a cva scout 45-70 I heard that was a good way to start. I will be hunting but would like to have a 300 yard gun. What kind of advantages will a smokeless have over a regular muzzleloader

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I have the cva apex conversion and love it. Like previously stated you will need a powder scale and maybe a die to shoot sabotless. The sabot is the weak link so IMO sabotless is a no brainer. Accuracy wise mine will shoot 300 yards but from 200 to 300 yards there is considerable bullet drop.

Advantages: not having to clean, bullet velocity, not having to clean, accuracy, not having to clean, longer range, not having to clean, no sabot (if you do choose), and oh yeh, not having to clean.

 

[fairchaser]

I was looking at converting a cva scout 45-70 I heard that was a good way to start. I will be hunting but would like to have a 300 yard gun. What kind of advantages will a smokeless have over a regular muzzleloader

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I have the cva apex conversion and love it. Like previously stated you will need a powder scale and maybe a die to shoot sabotless. The sabot is the weak link so IMO sabotless is a no brainer. Accuracy wise mine will shoot 300 yards but from 200 to 300 yards there is considerable bullet drop.

Advantages: not having to clean, bullet velocity, not having to clean, accuracy, not having to clean, longer range, not having to clean, no sabot (if you do choose), and oh yeh, not having to clean.

I have the same conversion ADR and agree with everything you said. I will add that mine at least is not a 300 yard gun. It will certainly kill a deer at that range but not accurate enough. It will shoot MOA at 100 to 150 yards but at 300 the group really opens up. Some of the better custom guns may do better, but as some have said the sabot is the weak link.

 

[NChunt1]

Great thanks for the info.what type of powder and bullets are you shooting out of your conversions. And also what company did you guys use to do it

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[NChunt1]

Another question I had was about the primer system and what equipment I will need to get started. I already have a powder scale for blackhorn 209 and my achery and arrow set ups.

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[ADR]

Great thanks for the info.what type of powder and bullets are you shooting out of your conversions. And also what company did you guys use to do it

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60 gr H4198 with Barnes flat base 290 TEZ. I have also shot the 300 gr fury star tipped but they have to be sized. I was blessed the Barnes fit my barrel perfectly without sizing.

Luke at arrowhead did my conversion with a 209 plug. Just remember that there are now many different ignition sources now and what may be a safe load in a 209 gun may not be in another gun with a different ignition like DI

 

[Bow Hunter]

Go to Hanks message board and ask away, there are some guys there that are way ahead of the game and will help you out. And Jeff Hankins can build you one heck of a gun.

 

[Roost 1]

My Apex conversion is MOA @ 300yds with 195gr Barnes & HLB sabot, 60gr H4198. I would recommend N120 if I was starting from scratch.
Let me add another big advantage is that you will not have to wait for the smoke to
clear to see where your deer went.

 

[mike243]

Nothing wrong with the savage 50 cal imo, killed 2 deer 260 something steps a few years ago, most of my shooting has been 50-120y and some times closer. they kick a bit also. I will upgrade to a 45 cal barrel and maybe shoot sabotless, more choices not using a sabots but you have to size stuff a lot of times, A reloading press is probably needed if you plan or want to shoot most bullets. Living in eTn and the spread of CWD may decrease my wants on deer hunting guns as it expands. fishing and small game may push to the top, not far from 60 and have slowed down some and priority's change :(

 

[lapuafan]

Smokeless is the only way to fly. The only drawback is the price to get one. You will need access to a good scale and you can put away all your 50 caliber stuff. Personally I bought one already set up with a tested load. That made things much simpler and easier and probably cheaper because people are always upgrading. Peruse the smokeless sites for second hand conversions and you will probably get a deal versus converting your own.

Most of us guys are shooting the 45, only way to go.

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[lapuafan]

I was looking at converting a cva scout 45-70 I heard that was a good way to start. I will be hunting but would like to have a 300 yard gun. What kind of advantages will a smokeless have over a regular muzzleloader

Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk

biggest advantage is not having to clean the stinking thing after you shoot it. That by itself is worth the extra cost. They also shoot pretty good and consistent shot to shot. Should push a 275 grain bullet 2550 FPS or so sabotless. I'm thinking a sabot load was around 2650, 200gr sst


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You better chronograph that sabot one pushing 2500, I think that's really pushing one, both my 45 shooting 325 with 104 grains is pushing 3150, and the other gun I have with 78 grain with 325 is around 2875

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[Jcalder]

I was looking at converting a cva scout 45-70 I heard that was a good way to start. I will be hunting but would like to have a 300 yard gun. What kind of advantages will a smokeless have over a regular muzzleloader

Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk

biggest advantage is not having to clean the stinking thing after you shoot it. That by itself is worth the extra cost. They also shoot pretty good and consistent shot to shot. Should push a 275 grain bullet 2550 FPS or so sabotless. I'm thinking a sabot load was around 2650, 200gr sst


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You better chronograph that sabot one pushing 2500, I think that's really pushing one, both my 45 shooting 325 with 104 grains is pushing 3150, and the other gun I have with 78 grain with 325 is around 2875

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The hunter I had would push a 275 BE around 2550 if I remember right. 60 grains 4198.


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[jlanecr500]

I was looking at converting a cva scout 45-70 I heard that was a good way to start. I will be hunting but would like to have a 300 yard gun. What kind of advantages will a smokeless have over a regular muzzleloader

Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk

biggest advantage is not having to clean the stinking thing after you shoot it. That by itself is worth the extra cost. They also shoot pretty good and consistent shot to shot. Should push a 275 grain bullet 2550 FPS or so sabotless. I'm thinking a sabot load was around 2650, 200gr sst


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You better chronograph that sabot one pushing 2500, I think that's really pushing one, both my 45 shooting 325 with 104 grains is pushing 3150, and the other gun I have with 78 grain with 325 is around 2875

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Please be careful posting charge weights without posting powder type and type of rifle it was fired in. Sure, high velocities are attainable with large doses of slow burning powders but those pressures are only safe in heavy barreled purpose built guns. I've done extensive pressure testing in both 40 and 45 caliber sml's with some loads exceeding 75000 psi and I've seen first hand what can happen at 115000 psi too. I don't want to hear about someone losing a hand because they loaded a super hotrod load into a break action.

I can say that 70gr of imr4198 under a 250sst out of a 22" barreled break action with LRMP ignition will get you around 2850 fps safely. That was my pressure trace equipment calibration load.

 

[M T Pockets 000]

Mine is a newly converted CVA 45/70.
Used an arrowhead breach plug and bushing v/s a Savage breach plug. Arrowhead is smaller so less material removed from barrel. Using 38 grains N110, patch , Parker Ballistic Extreme 275 grain .451"

 

[GMB54]

38gr N110 sabotless with a 275gr bullet is HOT for a 1" OD barrel.

Just 30gr is nearly breaking 40kpsi

 

[M T Pockets 000]

Just going with what the guys that built the gun set me up with.

 

[GMB54]

You meen the guy that converted the gun to SML. You still have all CVA parts other than a plug in the chamber. A 1" tube getting hit by probably close 45kpsi.

 

[M T Pockets 000]

Ok, I am not going to argue with you. Apparently you know more about my MZ conversion than the guys who converted it. Your right abd we are wrong but if it blows up in my face oh well.

 

[M T Pockets 000]

This is why I left Tndeer in the first place.

 

[GMB54]

This is why I left Tndeer in the first place.

Why because someone posted data to backup an opinion?

 

[jlanecr500]

Why because someone posted data to backup an opinion?

Exactly that. Your opinion. Nothing more.

 

[GMB54]

Exactly that. Your opinion. Nothing more.

Actually there is more, the trace i provided to support my opinion. So it is clearly more than just an opinion. Facts are included to back it up.

Do you have data that suggests the trace is wrong?

 

[Andy S.]

GMB54 & jlanecr500 - why the big difference in rise (quick climb versus gradual climb) in pressure between the two traces? What other details are we missing?

 

[M T Pockets 000]

I was not going to get him involved in this. I did not contact him. Jlancer500 did the conversion on my CVA45/70. I do not know enough about the conversion to be able to argue with GMB54 so I just told him he knew more than me and I wasn't going to argue. He apparently wasnt satisfied with that answer. Thanks for stepping in jlancer500.

 

[GMB54]

GMB54 & jlanecr500 - why the big difference in rise (quick climb versus gradual climb) in pressure between the two traces? What other details are we missing?

Could be something as simple as a bullet loaded tighter than another. Now i know TGinPA was not the only guy doing traces. The guy from Hanks who is also here? on TNdeer did them too and if he wanted to provide trace data as a rebutal he could.;) Im all for seeing it because CF load data for comparison is not all that great. Run Quickload using a 460S&W with that load. I wonder how close i am to my peak estimate.

 

[Andy S.]

Where did the last pressure trace go???? It disappeared on my end.