Side thread to the button killas

[RUGER]

:D

I hunted a piece of property for a while, and hope to again when I can afford the license.... :D

Anyway, simple rules were in place.
1 buck limit. (set by the state, not him)
Kill any buck you want as long as it was at least 3 1/2 years old, or your biggest to date.
Kill every doe you have the opportunity to kill.
NEVER shoot a single antlerless deer. By that he meant, if a deer comes in by itself, don't shoot it. He said with no other deer to compare it's size to the chances of killing a button were too great.
He said since going to that zero buttons had been killed on his farm.

Anyone else ever used that to "keep from" killing buttons?

Just curious.

 

[chebuck]

I have a hard time believing there won't be a mistake. I my self have picked out the bigger of 2 antlerless deer thinking I was shooting the doe with one fawn and walk up and it would be a button head.

 

[Vermin93]

Yes, the guy who got me into hunting used to own a 700 acre property in Missouri. I hunted the gun season there for 4 years in a row with a group of 6 guys. The landowner had established some rules, and one of them was that you could not shoot an antlerless deer that was by itself. That rule was obviously put in place for button bucks. During those 4 years there were zero button bucks and many does killed.

 

[benellivol]

I won't shoot a single antlerless deer. I've never killed a button and I've killed a lot of does.

 

[scn]

:D

I hunted a piece of property for a while, and hope to again when I can afford the license.... :D

Anyway, simple rules were in place.
1 buck limit. (set by the state, not him)
Kill any buck you want as long as it was at least 3 1/2 years old, or your biggest to date.
Kill every doe you have the opportunity to kill.
NEVER shoot a single antlerless deer. By that he meant, if a deer comes in by itself, don't shoot it. He said with no other deer to compare it's size to the chances of killing a button were too great.
He said since going to that zero buttons had been killed on his farm.

Anyone else ever used that to "keep from" killing buttons?

Just curious.

Yes, that is one of the best pieces of advice out there to keep from killing button bucks.

IMO, the Commission would "save" more buck fawns by education instead of regulation. My letter to the Commission on the subject suggest a detailed article in the Hunting Guide with hat info and a couple more points that would help instead of changing a definition that has worked well for decades.

 

[TheLBLman]

NEVER shoot a single antlerless deer. By that he meant, if a deer comes in by itself, don't shoot it. He said with no other deer to compare it's size to the chances of killing a button were too great..
He said since going to that zero buttons had been killed on his farm.

Anyone else ever used that to "keep from" killing buttons?

I agree that is generally good advice, and taking it will greatly reduce the number of buttons killed unknowingly.

However, "timing" is everything. This advice works best in the early season, but can sometimes be counter-productive in the late season (like early January). I've also seen it be counter-productive during the rut, when females coming into estrous abandon their fawns, then groups of 2 to 5 fawns commonly group up. A group of these comes by, and nearly every time, the hunter will kill the largest in the group, thinking that one is the adult doe, while it turns out to be a really nice button buck.

Still, generally good advice that by simply not shooting a lone antlerless-appearing deer, you will kill fewer button bucks. Again, timing, not just by calendar date, but also by the time of day. Much more often, when a lone antlerless deer steps out into the open, say mid-morning or mid-afternoon (before any other deer), it will be a button buck.

Among those purposefully trying to be very vigilant in not shooting a button, I will say the most common mistake in shooting one is late season, and on a lone antlerless deer, typically showing up before any other deer, not after or following other deer. Buttons are often taller than their mommas (late season) and it can be very difficult to not make a mistake. What's worked best for me has been to learn more the differences between fawns and adult antlerless deer, then simply not shoot any fawns.

Yes, education can be a great help. So could closing deer season no later than January 1st. So could allowing (or encouraging) more either-sex deer hunting EARLY in the season as opposed to TWRA traditionally doing it more late in the season. (It does appear TWRA is trying to provide more earlier either-sex opportunities.)

 

[BSK]

If reducing button buck kills is the primary concern, a few rules I've used and seen used, by priority of effectiveness:

1) Conduct antlerless kills as early in the season as possible (size differences between fawns and adult does is greatest at this time).

2) Avoid killing solitary antlerless deer (button bucks are often forced to leave their matriarchal social group and tend to wander around in daylight alone).

3) Avoid killing the first antlerless deer that enters a food plot or field (mother does often stop before entering an opening, while her fawn or fawns run into the opening ahead of her).

 

[Winchester]

Yes that's a common rule many places as some have trouble judging a deers size when no others around to compare to? I have always like to do most of my Doe killing with a bow, which accomplishes several things for me:
More fun and rewarding for me to kill does up close and personal with bow
Eliminates the mistake of killing buttons
Doesn't affect my most serious rut hunting with stomping all over an area dealing with a dead doe
etc

 

[rem270]

I always kill big does anyways so that helps me from killing a button buck. Can't remember the last time i did shoot one. But when i did it wasn't accident, i was out for blood and didn't care what it was.

 

[RUGER]

But when i did it wasn't accident, i was out for blood and didn't care what it was.

Been there & done that for sure. :D

 

[rem270]

But when i did it wasn't accident, i was out for blood and didn't care what it was.

Been there & done that for sure. :D

That makes for some fun hunts just going out and "stackin em up" :D

 

[RUGER]

But when i did it wasn't accident, i was out for blood and didn't care what it was.

Been there & done that for sure. :D

That makes for some fun hunts just going out and "stackin em up" :D

Yep, ain't done it in a long time but it is good for the soul. :D

 

[KPH]

I can think of 3 that I have killed that where by themselves, if they had not have been I would have let them go but thought they where does.

 

[infoman jr.]

I definitely pay more attention to a single antlerless deer.

 

[muddyboots]

I don't think I've ever killed but 1 and to be honest I was embarrassed when I took it to check station. From then on I only shoot big does and only with a bow. 25 years and haven't killed one since. I even have a hard time shooting a small doe. Not trying to ruffle feathers but not for me.

 

[BSK]

The group I used to work for got paid to kill does--a lot of does as quickly as possible. Many kills were being made at 300+ yards. We felt good if we kept button buck kills below 5% of all antlerless deer taken (less than 1 in 20).

For most counties in TN, once liberal antlerless limits have been in place for several years, button bucks usually make up around 12% of all antlerless kills. That's biologically acceptable. In a healthy deer herd, 20-25% of all antlerless deer are button bucks. A kill percentage of 12% indicates hunters ARE attempting to be discriminating.

 

[TheLBLman]

In a healthy deer herd, 20-25% of all antlerless deer are button bucks. A kill percentage of 12% indicates hunters ARE attempting to be discriminating.

That may be "acceptable", but note that's still killing about half the new crop of bucks?

In many circumstances, killing half the new cohort of bucks (simply by mistake) doesn't seem "acceptable", at least to me.
:)
I do realize it's impossible to have a 0% kill rate, but we'd have roughly twice as many 1 1/2-yr-old bucks the next year, for any year we didn't kill about half the button bucks?

 

[Mike Belt]

A 10% button kill represents 1 out of every 10 deer killed. I'm running about 7 out of 300 and just speaking for myself that's too high. Walking up on a downed deer to discover it's a button buck is my most disheartening part of deer hunting. A 10-12% rate may be acceptable statistically but still too high to suit me. I look at it sort like it takes a doe 1 year to replace a buck I may have taken from the herd. If I kill a button buck that's a year's worth of investment time wasted on replenishing the herd and that's not a given that that buck produced will ever meet my criteria for shooting. Considering probably less than 20% of the bucks will make it to my "cut off" point I'm really putting myself behind the 8 ball every time I shoot a button buck. Out of 100 deer with 20% of them being button bucks that equates to 20 button bucks. If 50 deer are killed and the button buck ratio of that total kill is 10% that equates to 5 button bucks killed. If you started with 20 and removed 5 you just dropped your up and coming buck population by 25%.

 

[BSK]

In a healthy deer herd, 20-25% of all antlerless deer are button bucks. A kill percentage of 12% indicates hunters ARE attempting to be discriminating.

That may be "acceptable", but note that's still killing about half the new crop of bucks?

No. But I see your math error (12% is about half of 20-25%). But 12% of antlerless deer killed being button bucks is not half of the 20-25% of ALL antlerless deer in the population that are button bucks. The number of antlerless deer killed by hunters each year is only a small percentage of the total population of antlerless deer alive at the beginning of the season.

 

[BSK]

If 50 deer are killed and the button buck ratio of that total kill is 10% that equates to 5 button bucks killed. If you started with 20 and removed 5 you just dropped your up and coming buck population by 25%.

Again, your confusing the percentage killed and what is in the total population. Yes, if 50 antlerless deer are killed, and 10% are button bucks, then 5 button bucks have been killed. The question is, what is the TOTAL antlerless population, and what percent of that population is being killed by hunters each year.

The number of button bucks killed by hunters each year is a small percentage of those that will die of natural causes. Nature produces an overabundance of young, and especially male young in white-tailed deer, to account for high mortality rates.

 

[Mike Belt]

I guess I am confused. Are you saying that button buck kill percentages represent whatever that percentage may be of the "living" population and not the percentage of what is actually killed during hunting season?

 

[TheLBLman]

In a healthy deer herd, 20-25% of all antlerless deer are button bucks. A kill percentage of 12% indicates hunters ARE attempting to be discriminating.

This was, to me, and to Mike, initially a little ambiguous.
For example, what if the hunters actually kill half of all the antlerless deer, rather than some small percentage of those antlerless deer?

I see your math error (12% is about half of 20-25%). But 12% of antlerless deer killed being button bucks is not half of the 20-25% of ALL antlerless deer in the population that are button bucks. The number of antlerless deer killed by hunters each year IS only a small percentage of the total population of antlerless deer alive at the beginning of the season.

I believe there is a difference between "is" and "is often", as sometimes, the harvest of antlerless deer COULD be much more significant than "is often" the case. :)

 

[TN Whitetail Freak]

A couple of years ago I shot a buck with like 1.5" spikes at 35 yds I thought I was shooting a doe. It happens meat was all the same you just have to roll with your decision to shoot

 

[BSK]

TheLBLman,

A numerical example:

Let's say 25% of the antlerless population is button bucks, and the total antlerless population is 100,000, meaning 25,000 of those antlerless deer are button bucks. Hunters killing 12% button bucks of the antlerless kill looks like half the button bucks being killed (12% is half of 25%), but hunters aren't killing all of the antlerless deer. In fact, they're probably only killing 25% in TN. So if hunters are killing 25% of the total antlerless population, they are killing 25,000 antlerless deer. A button buck kill of 12% of that antlerless kill is 3,000 (12% of 25,000). So we've got 25,000 button bucks in the population, of which hunters killed 3,000. That's nowhere near half.

 

[TheLBLman]

BSK, that's a much better explanation/clarification. Thanks :mrgreen:

 

[gator-n-buck]

:D

I hunted a piece of property for a while, and hope to again when I can afford the license.... :D

Anyway, simple rules were in place.
1 buck limit. (set by the state, not him)
Kill any buck you want as long as it was at least 3 1/2 years old, or your biggest to date.
Kill every doe you have the opportunity to kill.
NEVER shoot a single antlerless deer. By that he meant, if a deer comes in by itself, don't shoot it. He said with no other deer to compare it's size to the chances of killing a button were too great.
He said since going to that zero buttons had been killed on his farm.

Anyone else ever used that to "keep from" killing buttons?

Just curious.

I believe the rule, never killing a single doe would highly prevent Hunters from killing buttons. Makes sense... :)

 

[Boone 58]

A very good rule to implement and follow in my opinion if you were really concerned over the amount of antlerless deer being killed.

 

[pass-thru]

The concern about killing button bucks is purely emotional. If the herd can support doe harvest, then incidental harvest of buttons is harmless. If you need to be killing does, then passing up lots of does to be sure you don't get a button, frustrates the goal of killing does.

Every time you kill a doe, you are also killing all the future buttons she would have birthed. And if it's late season she probably already as button in the oven.

 

[BSK]

The concern about killing button bucks is purely emotional. If the herd can support doe harvest, then incidental harvest of buttons is harmless. If you need to be killing does, then passing up lots of does to be sure you don't get a button, frustrates the goal of killing does.

Every time you kill a doe, you are also killing all the future buttons she would have birthed. And if it's late season she probably already as button in the oven.

In my opinion, currently hunters/managers are displaying way, WAY too much concern over protecting every immature buck. I understand their focus on producing more older bucks, but Nature produces an overabundance of young males for a reason--because they are somewhat expendable. Nature kills a lot of young deer. No harm is done when hunters kill some too, both male and female. Besides, hunters/managers CANNOT stockpile mature bucks. Only a small percentage of the adult male population can be mature at any given time.

Relax. Enjoy hunting. Quit freaking out over the loss of a few young male deer.

 

[TheLBLman]

Relax. Enjoy hunting. Quit freaking out over the loss of a few young male deer.

I agree.

Like most everything, it becomes all about shooting for a healthy balance.

But if a goal is truly to produce more larger antlered 4 1/2 and older bucks, instead of being overly concerned about buttons and young bucks, the concern should be more directed at protecting the better-antlered 2 1/2 & 3 1/2-yr-old bucks, which are typically the most heavily targeted animals among hunter groups claiming to greatly appreciate more larger antlered mature bucks.

Almost every time I've seen a truly outstanding 2 1/2 or 3 1/2-yr-old buck, he as been specifically hunted and killed by a hunter who claims to be "managing" and hunting for larger-antlered mature bucks. Sometimes I have been that hunter myself, and am trying to learn better, as really would like to see more larger antlered mature bucks.

But imo, it's still good to raise our awareness, and to take REASONABLE steps to avoid killing button bucks. This is particularly the case in so many "management" situations where the issue is not so much about too many deer, as it is more about trying to just keep the population at a "reasonable" level AND with a more natural male:female ratio (which is "naturally" closer to 1:1).