Shooter???
- Thread starter turf08
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WORM82
Well-Known Member
Is that a serious question?
Realtree
Well-Known Member
Oh yea!!!
TheLBLman
Well-Known Member
Depends.
Depends on all circumstances, including "what else" might be roaming the area. What if you also had pics of even larger bucks in the same area? What if this is in Kentucky with a 1-buck annual limit?
By the way, in Tennessee, this buck would be illegal on President's Island WMA.
This buck is only an 8-pointer. Only 9-pointers or better are considered trophies by the management of PI.
Depends on all circumstances, including "what else" might be roaming the area. What if you also had pics of even larger bucks in the same area? What if this is in Kentucky with a 1-buck annual limit?
By the way, in Tennessee, this buck would be illegal on President's Island WMA.
This buck is only an 8-pointer. Only 9-pointers or better are considered trophies by the management of PI.
Shed Hunter
Well-Known Member
Nice buck. The first picture is very misleading though. The original picture would be needed to tell his size.
As for "Shooter???" Not a single person on this forum can answer that for you. Some people on here do not shoot deer unless they'e 4.5 140+ Some shoot spikes. It all depends what you want.
As for "Shooter???" Not a single person on this forum can answer that for you. Some people on here do not shoot deer unless they'e 4.5 140+ Some shoot spikes. It all depends what you want.
In the past 4 years I have only shot 2 deer under 120". Also I have never killed a deer over 130". Im not good at guessing antler size and thats why I was asking if it was a shooter. I thought it was in the post I guess it didnt make it. If this one isnt over 130" I dont want to shoot it. Im trying to let my deer mature as much as they can, but where I hunt there is only so much "maturing" that will go on before someone else kills them.
Southern Sportsman
Well-Known Member
IMO (and I emphasize that this is only my opinion) the "letting them mature" idea is great and is the key to good management. The "if it's not over 130" I'm not shooting him" is misguided. If you look through the pictures people post on here every day, you will see a fair number of deer that are 4.5+ and won't make 130". Anyone who kills a truly mature buck has killed a trophy, score be dammed.
Shed Hunter
Well-Known Member
I completely understand that. I won't score guess from those cell pictures because I do not want to mislead you. The first picture is easy to see why he looks so large. When taking pictures of your computer screen you can manipulate dimensions of the photo. Notice how much larger the left side of the picture is compared to how it thins out to the right? Most people do not realize they are angling up the deer because it is natural to hold your phone angled down as we sit higher than our computer screens.
Nealmeally
Well-Known Member
Wes Parrish said:
^^^This.... And age plays a huge factor with me also, but that's just me though.. I'm always thinking bout what he'll look like next year.. If he's a shooter to you, then shoot him! Only you decide that... He is a very nice buck!
Shed Hunter
Well-Known Member
Southern Sportsman said:
X1000. Score also does not match some deer's size. For example: a 140" 6 point is a whole lot bigger than a 150" 20 point
All depends on if it makes you happy. You are the only one that can determine that.
My personal opinion and it don't mean a thing, but i'm looking at that deer as a really nice 3.5 that should put on longer tines and add mass, and possibly another tine or 2 at 4.5 or 5.5. When he gets out of velvet you will see he won't have much mass and will probably score in the low 120's. I would be telling everyone on my place to do their best not to shoot him and let him try to make it another year.
My personal opinion and it don't mean a thing, but i'm looking at that deer as a really nice 3.5 that should put on longer tines and add mass, and possibly another tine or 2 at 4.5 or 5.5. When he gets out of velvet you will see he won't have much mass and will probably score in the low 120's. I would be telling everyone on my place to do their best not to shoot him and let him try to make it another year.
Nice!!!
TheLBLman
Well-Known Member
Good post. Agree with your thoughts, although I need to see this buck post-velvet and past mid-October to conclude the assessment.rem270 said:
I think he may be closer to 130 than 120, and is possibly 4.5 now. Whether he's 4 1/2 vs. 3 1/2 would play heavily into whether he's labeled as a "shooter". Just me, but I'm trying not to take any bucks younger than 4 1/2, and even then, am looking for something with lots of unique character (like sticker points) and lots of mass.
That "unique character", when not present now, often comes in another year or two, such as growing side stickers, non-typical points, and almost always noticeably increased mass (especially when going from 3 1/2 to 4 1/2).
Again, all depends on the totality of the circumstances.
Boll Weevil
Well-Known Member
turf08,
Another thing that might factor in if you've been able to watch him from 1 year to the next is how much bone he's put on and whether you think he'll add much more if given another year. Of course there's no way to definitively predict that, but by the time he hits 4.5 and certainly by 5.5 he's likely going to have 90-95% of what he'll ever have in the headgear department.
Example: We only shoot 4.5 or older bucks on my farm and have been watching one particular deer for 2 years. He's a giant 8 that's either 4.5 or 5.5 now. He's an absolutely gorgeous deer and though he won't quite make 140, did put on some tine length and mass this year. He appears to be "topping out" though, and I'm just not confident that another year would allow him to blow into some absolute behemoth. At this point he's mature and probably about as big as he's gonna get so dad, bro and I agreed...green light if he steps out.
Another thing that might factor in if you've been able to watch him from 1 year to the next is how much bone he's put on and whether you think he'll add much more if given another year. Of course there's no way to definitively predict that, but by the time he hits 4.5 and certainly by 5.5 he's likely going to have 90-95% of what he'll ever have in the headgear department.
Example: We only shoot 4.5 or older bucks on my farm and have been watching one particular deer for 2 years. He's a giant 8 that's either 4.5 or 5.5 now. He's an absolutely gorgeous deer and though he won't quite make 140, did put on some tine length and mass this year. He appears to be "topping out" though, and I'm just not confident that another year would allow him to blow into some absolute behemoth. At this point he's mature and probably about as big as he's gonna get so dad, bro and I agreed...green light if he steps out.
TheLBLman
Well-Known Member
In the context of free-range herds in TN, moderate hunting pressure . . . . . .
Generally speaking, I don't think much gain should be expected from 5 1/2 to 6 1/2, and you should give the green light to ANY 5 1/2.
Practically speaking, often little harm scorewise in turning on that green light at 4 1/2. But there is usually significant antler mass gains going from 3 1/2 to 4 1/2, so my preference is to avoid taking any bucks younger than 4 1/2.
We are always somewhat between a rock & a hard place in trying to manage our buck harvests. I believe older buck mortality is higher than many would believe via death from non-hunter causes. These include fighting injuries, being hit by a car, post-rut weakness/sickness making them more vulnerable to predation from dogs/coyotes (if they don't die outright in January from pneumonia), and even summer diseases such as EHD. So if we don't harvest them at 4 1/2, there is significant risk of having no opportunity the next year.
It may be that there is almost a 50% chance that any 4 1/2-yr-old buck will not survive to 5 1/2 (free-roaming in TN) even in the absence of human hunters. Very hard to evaluate these "odds" as also believe many hunters take less certain shooting opportunities at larger antlered bucks, causing relatively more of them to be unknowingly gut-shot (just takes a tiny nick) and die days later unrecovered by the hunter who claims he "must have missed". Worse, in this situation, that hunter is typically too lazy to adequately follow up on a low-odds shot he already had little confidence he could make, but took anyway, just because it was a larger antlered buck.
Generally speaking, I don't think much gain should be expected from 5 1/2 to 6 1/2, and you should give the green light to ANY 5 1/2.
Practically speaking, often little harm scorewise in turning on that green light at 4 1/2. But there is usually significant antler mass gains going from 3 1/2 to 4 1/2, so my preference is to avoid taking any bucks younger than 4 1/2.
We are always somewhat between a rock & a hard place in trying to manage our buck harvests. I believe older buck mortality is higher than many would believe via death from non-hunter causes. These include fighting injuries, being hit by a car, post-rut weakness/sickness making them more vulnerable to predation from dogs/coyotes (if they don't die outright in January from pneumonia), and even summer diseases such as EHD. So if we don't harvest them at 4 1/2, there is significant risk of having no opportunity the next year.
It may be that there is almost a 50% chance that any 4 1/2-yr-old buck will not survive to 5 1/2 (free-roaming in TN) even in the absence of human hunters. Very hard to evaluate these "odds" as also believe many hunters take less certain shooting opportunities at larger antlered bucks, causing relatively more of them to be unknowingly gut-shot (just takes a tiny nick) and die days later unrecovered by the hunter who claims he "must have missed". Worse, in this situation, that hunter is typically too lazy to adequately follow up on a low-odds shot he already had little confidence he could make, but took anyway, just because it was a larger antlered buck.
Boll Weevil
Well-Known Member
Mr. Parrish: Agree with all points, sir.
One more thing I might add for the original poster is (and this about like telling you "the ocean is deep") the older they get the harder they are to even see much less kill. A deer is 132, you've got scores of daylight pics, and during the season he gives you 4 chances to kill'im but you pass in lieu of another year of growth. A year older, a year wiser, he gains a whopping 3.5" but this time you only get 2 fuzzy pics of him...both at night?
Without exception, every single big old mature buck I've killed...saw him exactly once...through the crosshairs. They're just so hard to catch up with.
Good luck to you whatever you decide; that's a fine deer.
One more thing I might add for the original poster is (and this about like telling you "the ocean is deep") the older they get the harder they are to even see much less kill. A deer is 132, you've got scores of daylight pics, and during the season he gives you 4 chances to kill'im but you pass in lieu of another year of growth. A year older, a year wiser, he gains a whopping 3.5" but this time you only get 2 fuzzy pics of him...both at night?
Without exception, every single big old mature buck I've killed...saw him exactly once...through the crosshairs. They're just so hard to catch up with.
Good luck to you whatever you decide; that's a fine deer.
Wes Parrish said:
I agree with everything you said. From them pics he looks 3.5, but they are not the best angles to determine age.
This is why i like this forum. Lots of advice can be taken in and used throughout the year. I can't wait for the mid october bucks to start showing up and seeing pics. That's when it gets real fun.
easy45
Well-Known Member
yes
TheLBLman
Well-Known Member
Don't know about most of you, but I get my most "meaningful" buck pics after mid-October. I say "meaningful" mainly because THOSE are the bucks I know to be around and really available for harvest (at least until the rut is over).
By contrast, many of the velvet buck pics (and pre-mid-October) are simply never seen during the hunting season. Last year, my #1 targeted buck's last known pic was taken in early October over a mile from my nearest opportunity to hunt him. Never mind I'd been regularly getting pics of him during the summer, and had lots of good hunting property between those pic locations and my property boundaries.
But it gets more bizarre as to just where these summer bucks go. My friend who had the pics over a mile away, he never got any more either, and we know of no one who killed this very identifiable buck anywhere in the surrounding area. While I believe it's unlikely that buck "died" any earlier than November 2013, we've obtained zero new pics of him since October 2013. Will not surprise me if he simply shows up again NEXT summer.
Many bucks simply SHIFT their ranges around a lot more than most hunters can imagine. A shift of only 1/2 mile can typically put that buck's fall core area outside the property one would have to hunt (where that buck regularly was seen during summer). Having a particular buck shift his range onto property you cannot hunt is an issue even when you have over 1,000 acres in a single huntable block, as most bucks on your property will still be able to shift only 1/2 mile and be beyond your borders. Probably takes at least 5,000 acres even to contain half the summer bucks throughout the fall and the rut. (Many exceptions to this with "suburban" deer populations where they have so many unnatural man-made barriers and reasons to maintain a much smaller, even the same range year-round.)
Also, they may be regularly using an area of several hundred acres for a couple years, go away for a year or two, then return, long after you assumed they were dead. Until I believe they should be 7 1/2 or older, and in the absence of any info to the contrary, I assume they are still living, and may return to a former range.
Each buck is an individual, and some have very small core areas, some of which do not change from summer to fall, nor from year to year. But most move around more than I used to think, and those bucks we may think of as "ours" (because we see them regularly on "our" place), well, several other landowners may be feeling the same about those very same bucks, as they also consider them "theirs", seeing them regularly over a mile from where you see them.
By contrast, many of the velvet buck pics (and pre-mid-October) are simply never seen during the hunting season. Last year, my #1 targeted buck's last known pic was taken in early October over a mile from my nearest opportunity to hunt him. Never mind I'd been regularly getting pics of him during the summer, and had lots of good hunting property between those pic locations and my property boundaries.
But it gets more bizarre as to just where these summer bucks go. My friend who had the pics over a mile away, he never got any more either, and we know of no one who killed this very identifiable buck anywhere in the surrounding area. While I believe it's unlikely that buck "died" any earlier than November 2013, we've obtained zero new pics of him since October 2013. Will not surprise me if he simply shows up again NEXT summer.
Many bucks simply SHIFT their ranges around a lot more than most hunters can imagine. A shift of only 1/2 mile can typically put that buck's fall core area outside the property one would have to hunt (where that buck regularly was seen during summer). Having a particular buck shift his range onto property you cannot hunt is an issue even when you have over 1,000 acres in a single huntable block, as most bucks on your property will still be able to shift only 1/2 mile and be beyond your borders. Probably takes at least 5,000 acres even to contain half the summer bucks throughout the fall and the rut. (Many exceptions to this with "suburban" deer populations where they have so many unnatural man-made barriers and reasons to maintain a much smaller, even the same range year-round.)
Also, they may be regularly using an area of several hundred acres for a couple years, go away for a year or two, then return, long after you assumed they were dead. Until I believe they should be 7 1/2 or older, and in the absence of any info to the contrary, I assume they are still living, and may return to a former range.
Each buck is an individual, and some have very small core areas, some of which do not change from summer to fall, nor from year to year. But most move around more than I used to think, and those bucks we may think of as "ours" (because we see them regularly on "our" place), well, several other landowners may be feeling the same about those very same bucks, as they also consider them "theirs", seeing them regularly over a mile from where you see them.
I would shoot him. But my luck if I was hunting him would be like this. I would see him out of range with bow and muzzleloader and then he would walk by at 20 yards with a rifle. Good luck!
DntBrnDPig
Well-Known Member
Its hard to tell age from those pics but I think that deer is 4.5+ because of the developed brisket and back hump over its front legs. Pics can be deceiving though - so it may only be 3.5
Recoil
Well-Known Member
If I'm hunting in Missouri I might have to think about it. If I'm hunting here in Tennessee...I don't need to think about it!
NO. :grin:
stryker
Well-Known Member
I'd shoot him and not worry about score that's just a number to me. JMO
Yes for me. For you? Your decision. It doesn't matter what anyone else thinks.
