Shedding Already?

[Clmens]

Found a real nice shed yesterday at cheatham. Looked to be there for a few weeks and looks like it fell off naturally. Anyone else seeing bucks drop early? Shot what I thought was a doe around this time last year, come to find out it was a 2.5 year old that had dropped already.

 

[Clmens]

Heres the shed:

 

[morgancountry]

We start seeing them drop in late December here on the plateau every year. Some bucks will hold into February but that's about the latest I've seen here.

 

[jag1]

Early shedding may be a an adaptation that helps survival thereby getting passed down????

 

[BSK]

In the South, early shedding is a sign of physical stress, usually rut stress. It is most common in areas that experienced a poor acorn crop or where buck-doe ratios are out of whack.

 

[Clmens]

That makes sense the buck to doe ratio is definitely out of whack over there

 

[Ski]

Being from Ohio I'm used to finding sheds in January/February. I moved here and saw bucks still wearing horns in April. Didn't know what to think. I've also noticed the rut is long and spread out compared to up north. After seeing how Alabama advertises 4-5 different rut zones/seasons, and considering the history of reintroduction on Arnold AB near here, it got me to wondering how similar TN is to AL. AL has 2 or 3 rut zones within an hour drive from my house here in TN, so it's not a stretch to consider that we have several herd variations here, too. If so, it would easily explain the hit & miss stone skipping rut, as well as the various timing for antler shed. But I'm not a biologist or expert anything, just thinking out loud on my keyboard, trying to make sense of things.

 

[BSK]

Being from Ohio I'm used to finding sheds in January/February. I moved here and saw bucks still wearing horns in April. Didn't know what to think. I've also noticed the rut is long and spread out compared to up north. After seeing how Alabama advertises 4-5 different rut zones/seasons, and considering the history of reintroduction on Arnold AB near here, it got me to wondering how similar TN is to AL. AL has 2 or 3 rut zones within an hour drive from my house here in TN, so it's not a stretch to consider that we have several herd variations here, too. If so, it would easily explain the hit & miss stone skipping rut, as well as the various timing for antler shed. But I'm not a biologist or expert anything, just thinking out loud on my keyboard, trying to make sense of things.

Ski,

Don't want to get into a lengthy discussion about how Natural Selection works, but suffice to say, any heritable genetic characteristic that increases a population's lifespan and reproductive success is favored over the long term until most members of the population carry this trait. Heritable genetic traits that reduce lifespan and reproductive success slowly get weeded out of the population, as fewer and fewer surviving offspring are produced with that trait.

For northern deer, rut timing is essential to population survival. Fawns born too early in spring can be killed by late spring snowstorms. Fawns born too late in summer cannot put on enough body weight before winter sets in to survive the brutal conditions of deep snow and extreme cold. Because of these factors, Natural Selection VERY strongly favors deer with a genetic reproductive timing for early November. This produces fawns in late May, protecting them from late cold snaps but early enough to maximize body growth before the following winter.

However, the South doesn't have such a critical time period for breeding/fawning dates. We don't have winters conditions so extreme they directly kill deer. This provides a more "fluid" situation for Natural Selection to work from, and allows small differences in "most productive fawning times" to eventually shift peak breeding times in very localized pockets, based on local conditions. This produces some very bizarre breeding times. For instance, in south Florida, peak breeding is July and August. Why? Because a peak rut in summer produces a fawning time right during the climatological driest time of year (January through March). In the endless standing water of the Everglades, fawns hitting the ground when the swamps are temporarily dry is the difference between life and death for those fawns. In south Texas, water also plays a critical role in rut timing, but from the opposite direction. South Texas is basically a desert. Rainfall and plant green-up is critical for whitetail survival. The early part of hurricane season, June and July, is often the wettest period of the year. The rut is south Texas is in December, which produces fawns right during this hurricane induced green-up. The Hurricane season also plays a role in rut timing along the Carolina coast, but in the opposite direction. Late May and June tropical systems can produce devastating flooding rains along the coast, hence deer along the coast have developed a late September and early October peak rut, so that fawning times fall early enough before the tropical systems arrive that fawns can be up and mobile to escape floodwaters.

The above examples are the extremes, where the biological "reasons" for the unusual rut dates are fairly clear. However, in many parts of the South, especially the Deep South, the reasons for widely varying rut dates across short geographic distances are not so apparent. In fact, some are a mystery. But Natural Selection generally doesn't "make mistakes." As long as those dates persist over long periods of time, there is a reason for them, even if the reason isn't obvious.

 

[Ski]

However, in many parts of the South, especially the Deep South, the reasons for widely varying rut dates across short geographic distances are not so apparent. In fact, some are a mystery. But Natural Selection generally doesn't "make mistakes." As long as those dates persist over long periods of time, there is a reason for them, even if the reason isn't obvious.

This is precisely what I was alluding to, the mystery. I don't like mystery. I want answers

I've been told(possibly wrong) by some old timers about reintroduction back in the 50's/60's, where deer were brought in from other places because there were virtually no deer in this area. As I understood it the deer came from various other states with the expectancy that they'd all mingle and become one herd, even though there were multiple subspecies. Given the sometimes obvious differences in deer here in this pocket vs. just 30mi away, it made me begin to wonder if these different sub-species actually melded into one herd as planned or if instead they have self segregated, not unlike the way humans do.

Simply put, would a south TX coast doe breed a northern woodland buck, and so on? Or would they keep to their own, thereby creating these "pockets" that seemingly have their own timing and herd structure?

As I said, I'm not a biologist or deer expert by any standard. I'm just a hunter that has been noticing an awful lot of anomalies, or maybe idiosyncrasies for a better word, that are completely different than what I was used to before moving here 5yrs ago. And it's tough to peg because it seems to be so area specific, not even regional. I'm not suggesting that's what's going on. I'm only trying to piece things together. If you have any insight at all I'm all ears. This stuff is fascinating to me. And thank you for taking the time to share insight.

 

[CrossVolle]

You can see bald bucks at my farm anywhere from late January and i have even spotted some carrying at least one side into turkey season.

 

[BSK]

You can see bald bucks at my farm anywhere from late January and i have even spotted some carrying at least one side into turkey season.

In a very healthy, socially balanced deer herd, with the exception of the most active breeders who may drop antlers early during rut stress, most bucks should carry their antlers into February and March. It should also be common to see a few bucks carrying their antlers until growth of the new set in early April pops the old set off from underneath.

 

[BSK]

I've been told(possibly wrong) by some old timers about reintroduction back in the 50's/60's, where deer were brought in from other places because there were virtually no deer in this area. As I understood it the deer came from various other states with the expectancy that they'd all mingle and become one herd, even though there were multiple subspecies. Given the sometimes obvious differences in deer here in this pocket vs. just 30mi away, it made me begin to wonder if these different sub-species actually melded into one herd as planned or if instead they have self segregated, not unlike the way humans do.

This is a commonly held belief, because it makes perfect sense. However, recent genetic studies shed doubt on the idea. Despite the fact deer across the Southeast were restocked from a wide variety of locations, including Texas, Wisconsin, Michigan, etc. genetic analysis of deer from across the region find they are all Odecoileus Virginianus virginianus. In essence, Southeastern whitetails. How is this possible considering no deer existed in the areas where the non-resident deer were restocked? Because once reestablishment programs were implemented, and hunting opportunities very limited, native deer rapidly spread outwards from their remnant pockets and once interacting with the pockets of foreign deer, the local highly-adapted genetics of the resident deer quickly swamped the very poorly adapted genetics of the transplanted deer. Northern and Western deer are highly adapted to those environments, but terribly adapted to a southeastern conditions. Even in current studies, where deer are brought in from other regions and kept separate from local deer, the foreign deer perform VERY poorly, and often don't survive for long due to diseases that are endemic to the region.

The one interesting caveat is that many now resident deer still carry a few genetic markers indicating their ancestors interacted with the stocked non-native deer, even if few of those markers are actually "active" genes (the deer no longer carry "expressed traits" of their non-native ancestors). This is similar to how most humans of primarily European decent still carry genetic markers from when their ancestors interacted with the Neanderthal race of Humanoids that first inhabited Europe before Modern Humans arrived.

 

[redblood]

We always start seeing them in mid decemeber

 

[redblood]

Here a couple in the last week

 

[redblood]

Everyone needs to really look over any anterless deer they plan to shoot

 

[Ski]

This is a commonly held belief, because it makes perfect sense. However, recent genetic studies shed doubt on the idea. Despite the fact deer across the Southeast were restocked from a wide variety of locations, including Texas, Wisconsin, Michigan, etc. genetic analysis of deer from across the region find they are all Odecoileus Virginianus virginianus. In essence, Southeastern whitetails. How is this possible considering no deer existed in the areas where the non-resident deer were restocked? Because once reestablishment programs were implemented, and hunting opportunities very limited, native deer rapidly spread outwards from their remnant pockets and once interacting with the pockets of foreign deer, the local highly-adapted genetics of the resident deer quickly swamped the very poorly adapted genetics of the transplanted deer. Northern and Western deer are highly adapted to those environments, but terribly adapted to a southeastern conditions. Even in current studies, where deer are brought in from other regions and kept separate from local deer, the foreign deer perform VERY poorly, and often don't survive for long due to diseases that are endemic to the region.

The one interesting caveat is that many now resident deer still carry a few genetic markers indicating their ancestors interacted with the stocked non-native deer, even if few of those markers are actually "active" genes (the deer no longer carry "expressed traits" of their non-native ancestors). This is similar to how most humans of primarily European decent still carry genetic markers from when their ancestors interacted with the Neanderthal race of Humanoids that first inhabited Europe before Modern Humans arrived.

Thank you for taking the time to explain it. I'll put that idea to rest and go back to wondering again!

 

[Tom Collins]

Ski,

Don't want to get into a lengthy discussion about how Natural Selection works, but suffice to say, any heritable genetic characteristic that increases a population's lifespan and reproductive success is favored over the long term until most members of the population carry this trait. Heritable genetic traits that reduce lifespan and reproductive success slowly get weeded out of the population, as fewer and fewer surviving offspring are produced with that trait.

For northern deer, rut timing is essential to population survival. Fawns born too early in spring can be killed by late spring snowstorms. Fawns born too late in summer cannot put on enough body weight before winter sets in to survive the brutal conditions of deep snow and extreme cold. Because of these factors, Natural Selection VERY strongly favors deer with a genetic reproductive timing for early November. This produces fawns in late May, protecting them from late cold snaps but early enough to maximize body growth before the following winter.

However, the South doesn't have such a critical time period for breeding/fawning dates. We don't have winters conditions so extreme they directly kill deer. This provides a more "fluid" situation for Natural Selection to work from, and allows small differences in "most productive fawning times" to eventually shift peak breeding times in very localized pockets, based on local conditions. This produces some very bizarre breeding times. For instance, in south Florida, peak breeding is July and August. Why? Because a peak rut in summer produces a fawning time right during the climatological driest time of year (January through March). In the endless standing water of the Everglades, fawns hitting the ground when the swamps are temporarily dry is the difference between life and death for those fawns. In south Texas, water also plays a critical role in rut timing, but from the opposite direction. South Texas is basically a desert. Rainfall and plant green-up is critical for whitetail survival. The early part of hurricane season, June and July, is often the wettest period of the year. The rut is south Texas is in December, which produces fawns right during this hurricane induced green-up. The Hurricane season also plays a role in rut timing along the Carolina coast, but in the opposite direction. Late May and June tropical systems can produce devastating flooding rains along the coast, hence deer along the coast have developed a late September and early October peak rut, so that fawning times fall early enough before the tropical systems arrive that fawns can be up and mobile to escape floodwaters.

The above examples are the extremes, where the biological "reasons" for the unusual rut dates are fairly clear. However, in many parts of the South, especially the Deep South, the reasons for widely varying rut dates across short geographic distances are not so apparent. In fact, some are a mystery. But Natural Selection generally doesn't "make mistakes." As long as those dates persist over long periods of time, there is a reason for them, even if the reason isn't obvious.

I feel like I should pay you for reading this. Goodness, this is incredibly interesting information. Have you written any books?

 

[Deer444]

Found a real nice shed yesterday at cheatham. Looked to be there for a few weeks and looks like it fell off naturally. Anyone else seeing bucks drop early? Shot what I thought was a doe around this time last year, come to find out it was a 2.5 year old that had dropped already.

A friend of mine took a very good 8 point about 10 years ago on public land in Morgan County in Dec. he grabbed it my the horn to drag and it came off in his hand .he grabbed the other horn and it came off as well it was early Dec. I accused him of making it a little wider than it was .lol

 

[Hunter 257W]

Bucks hold their antlers on my farm until mid to late March usually. Last year a few lost them a bit earlier. We have a lot of agriculture though so some very healthy deer. This is mid Franklin county.

I've not seen any that have lost them in December or January ever.

 

[Ranger Scout]

This is precisely what I was alluding to, the mystery. I don't like mystery. I want answers

I've been told(possibly wrong) by some old timers about reintroduction back in the 50's/60's, where deer were brought in from other places because there were virtually no deer in this area. As I understood it the deer came from various other states with the expectancy that they'd all mingle and become one herd, even though there were multiple subspecies. Given the sometimes obvious differences in deer here in this pocket vs. just 30mi away, it made me begin to wonder if these different sub-species actually melded into one herd as planned or if instead they have self segregated, not unlike the way humans do.

Simply put, would a south TX coast doe breed a northern woodland buck, and so on? Or would they keep to their own, thereby creating these "pockets" that seemingly have their own timing and herd structure?

As I said, I'm not a biologist or deer expert by any standard. I'm just a hunter that has been noticing an awful lot of anomalies, or maybe idiosyncrasies for a better word, that are completely different than what I was used to before moving here 5yrs ago. And it's tough to peg because it seems to be so area specific, not even regional. I'm not suggesting that's what's going on. I'm only trying to piece things together. If you have any insight at all I'm all ears. This stuff is fascinating to me. And thank you for taking the time to share insight.

The deer were brought in from the states of Michigan, Maryland, Wisconsin, North Carolina, Virginia, and Texas. From what I understand the deer from Texas and Wisconsin thrived and the other deer didn't do so well and it is thought that the only native deer that is still alive today would be in the Great Smokey Mountain area. I also live close to the border of Jackson county Alabama the deer we kill here in Marion County are very grey in color and mostly have longer bodies, if you hunt more in the North Western part of the county you see a lot more shorter brown colored deer with shorter snouts. I have a good friend that hunts in Jackson County Al and he doesn't start hunting until late Dec because that is when their deer start going into rut in late Dec more of a heavy rut in the 2nd week of Jan, and from what I understand Al didn't do a deer reintroduction. I am not a biologist either but I do believe that our very early rut has more to do with the deer reintroduction than any other thing. I used to carry my deer to be processed to AL you could pick a TN deer out of an Al deer all day long mostly by the color and size of the body. I do know that Jackson County AL and Franklin County TN have a large deer herd and you can tell a difference in the body size seems a lot smaller deer from these areas I am not sure if it's from food competition of maybe inbreeding. My friend in AL has the luxury of killing a doe a day, you can go outside of his house on any given day and see 30 doe standing in a field he went on a doe rampage one year killed 18 the next year it seemed like he hadn't killed a single doe. I think that this great population swing from Marion and Franklin County TN is the amount of farmland available we have very little in Marion County and the part that I live in you will be lucky to see 3 doe running together, then you go to South Pittsburg Mtn next to Franklin County and they are over run with doe. So I guess what i am trying to say is they are very many variables when it comes to deer and I think that biologist are still stumped at the reason deer thrive in some areas and struggle and act different in other areas.

 

[FTP]

Heres the shed:

That makes sense the buck to doe ratio is definitely out of whack over there

The Buck to Doe ratio at Cheatham is not ideal,
I see 3-4 bucks for every doe, yes I wrote that correctly. I have pictures of them already shedding, some from 3 weeks ago.

 

[FTP]

That makes sense the buck to doe ratio is definitely out of whack over there

The buck to doe ratio is not ideal. You my friend are correct. I see 3-4 bucks for every doe. Yes I wrote that correctly. And yes, they are shedding on the WMA. It is normal for them at this time.

 

[BSK]

I feel like I should pay you for reading this. Goodness, this is incredibly interesting information. Have you written any books?

I coauthored Deer Management 101: Manage Your Way to Better Hunting with Dr. Grant Woods. Although honestly, if I had the option to republish that book, I would change some things we wrote.

Also authored or coauthored about 40 articles for Quality Whitetails, the magazine for what used to be the QDMA. Authored and coauthored, or was quoted, it articles for a wide variety of the "big" magazines, such as Outdoor Life, Field and Stream, Bowhunter, etc.

 

[DoubleRidge]

I coauthored Deer Management 101: Manage Your Way to Better Hunting with Dr. Grant Woods. Although honestly, if I had the option to republish that book, I would change some things we wrote.

Also authored or coauthored about 40 articles for Quality Whitetails, the magazine for what used to be the QDMA. Authored and coauthored, or was quoted, it articles for a wide variety of the "big" magazines, such as Outdoor Life, Field and Stream, Bowhunter, etc.

BSK....given your history with writing several articles for Quality Whitetails magazine what's your opinion on the merger of the Quality Deer Management Association and National Deer Alliance to form the National Deer Association? I'm familiar with QDMA but had never heard of the NDA? Do you think this is a good move? Any info or opinion about the merger is appreciated....thanks.

 

[BSK]

BSK....given your history with writing several articles for Quality Whitetails magazine what's your opinion on the merger of the Quality Deer Management Association and National Deer Alliance to form the National Deer Association? I'm familiar with QDMA but had never heard of the NDA? Do you think this is a good move? Any info or opinion about the merger is appreciated....thanks.

Personally, I'm EXTREMELY curious about this move. I left the QDMA several years ago, as they drifted away from true Quality Deer Management and towards practices more closely aligned with Trophy Management. They did this because Trophy Management is where the money is. I disagreed STRONGLY with that move. The QDMA was most associated with southern hunting and management, and did not play quite as well in the north and northeast. I suspect (but don't know for sure) that they aligned themselves with the northern-focused National Deer Alliance for financial reasons. I still haven't decided whether this will be good or bad for the hunter/science-based management movement.

Anyone who has hunted up north will know that the hunting experience between North and South is a night and day difference. Northern deer hunting often involves very short seasons and extremely high hunting pressure with high hunter densities. The South can be the polar opposite. We shall see how these two groups of very different hunters/managers work this out.

 

[DoubleRidge]

Personally, I'm EXTREMELY curious about this move. I left the QDMA several years ago, as they drifted away from true Quality Deer Management and towards practices more closely aligned with Trophy Management. They did this because Trophy Management is where the money is. I disagreed STRONGLY with that move. The QDMA was most associated with southern hunting and management, and did not play quite as well in the north and northeast. I suspect (but don't know for sure) that they aligned themselves with the northern-focused National Deer Alliance for financial reasons. I still haven't decided whether this will be good or bad for the hunter/science-based management movement.

Anyone who has hunted up north will know that the hunting experience between North and South is a night and day difference. Northern deer hunting often involves very short seasons and extremely high hunting pressure with high hunter densities. The South can be the polar opposite. We shall see how these two groups of very different hunters/managers work this out.

Thanks... appreciate your input....I'm curious as well.... maybe even cautiously optimistic.....guess time will tell.

 

[Tennessee280]

Shot(what i imagine would've been) an 8 pt yesterday that had half its rack missing, looked fairly fresh at the base. No way to tell if it was from fighting or it just fell off, it wasn't broke off. His other side was still on solid though as I drug him by it for a little

 

[Tennessee280]

The buck to doe ratio is not ideal. You my friend are correct. I see 3-4 bucks for every doe. Yes I wrote that correctly. And yes, they are shedding on the WMA. It is normal for them at this time.

I was hunting right below the wma against the harpeth yesterday and shot one with half a rack gone, makes sense now