Rubs

[BSK]

McCoy,

Rubs (and scrapes) are chemical communication devices. Think of rubs as pheromone wicks. Bucks leave scent from their forehead gland as they are making the rub. if you watch a buck make a rub he will stop every so often and sniff the rub. He is testing to see if it smells right yet. Exactly what chemicals are left on a rub, and their exact biological purposes, are not known, but it is strongly suspected these chemicals help maintain male social hierarchy, and in the Southeast, actually help maintain proper breeding timing.

Because rubs are communication devices, they are made where other deer will come in contact with them. This is especially true of signpost rubs. With the except of those made in an individual buck's bedding area, signpost rubs are almost always made in high deer interaction areas--where numerous deer travel patterns intersect. When I see signpost rubs outside of a bedding area, I know I'm looking at a spot where different buck and doe social group travel patterns funnel through a single spot or intersect at that spot. This can be anything from a habitat or terrain-based funnel to a staging area into a concentrated food source.

Only older bucks INITIATE big signpost rubs. However, once started, every buck that interacts with that rub will rework it, even down to the smallest spike. Even does will sniff and lick signpost rubs. This is how the chemical messages are transmitted. Once a signpost is created, they become like the fire hydrant ever dog goes out of his way to pee on and "leave his mark." During his doctorial research, my mentor monitored signpost rubs with the first production trail-cameras (back in the late 80s and early 90s). On one long-standing signpost rub, he acquired pictures of 13 different mature bucks working that rub in a single season. Once created, signpost rubs are VERY communally used.

 

[BSK]

Rubs are virtually non existent here this year. I even spent several hours at ORWMA on the Scout day Sat afternoon, and after walking for 3+ hours and driving many miles on the old logging roads, saw exactly 1 rub. This goes hand in hand with what I have found on the other areas I hunt here, NO rubs at all so far. Matter of fact the one at OR makes #3 for the year that I have found! I think it has everything to do with the Total mast failure we have this yr, OR included as I found exactly 1 tree with just a few acorns under it, which is the first I have found all yr on all the places I have been here.
I think the deer, bucks included, are spending way more time and energy looking for food vs a year when they can gorge on acorns and be full in just a few mins. I think our rut is way more intense on good acorn yrs. I do think however that a lot of deer will be killed here this yr due to the fact they will HAVE to move much more to get the food they require during the colder weather.

I agree that you are seeing the impact of a mast failure.

However, I have also noticed much less rubbing behavior this year, even in areas with a good acorn crop. I have no idea why rubbing behavior would be limited this year. I'm seeing a fair number of signpost rubs, but virtually none of the small rubs that usually ring every opening and brushy spot.

 

[Winchester]

Rubs are virtually non existent here this year. I even spent several hours at ORWMA on the Scout day Sat afternoon, and after walking for 3+ hours and driving many miles on the old logging roads, saw exactly 1 rub. This goes hand in hand with what I have found on the other areas I hunt here, NO rubs at all so far. Matter of fact the one at OR makes #3 for the year that I have found! I think it has everything to do with the Total mast failure we have this yr, OR included as I found exactly 1 tree with just a few acorns under it, which is the first I have found all yr on all the places I have been here.
I think the deer, bucks included, are spending way more time and energy looking for food vs a year when they can gorge on acorns and be full in just a few mins. I think our rut is way more intense on good acorn yrs. I do think however that a lot of deer will be killed here this yr due to the fact they will HAVE to move much more to get the food they require during the colder weather.

I agree that you are seeing the impact of a mast failure.

However, I have also noticed much less rubbing behavior this year, even in areas with a good acorn crop. I have no idea why rubbing behavior would be limited this year. I'm seeing a fair number of signpost rubs, but virtually none of the small rubs that usually ring every opening and brushy spot.

Interesting, Im anxious to see how this years rut plays out, Im somewhat worried to be honest!

 

[BSK]

I too am curious to see how the rut plays out. As I've said many times, breeding occurs on about the same dates every year, with each area having its own unique timing. HOWEVER, unpredictable combinations of environmental conditions can make it appear to the hunter that the rut is early or late, and sometimes these differences in OBSERVED DAYLIGHT rutting activity can be significantly different than the actual biological peak of breeding. When conducting breeding timing research in GA and SC, hunters sometimes reported peak daylight rutting activity two or more weeks different than the actual peak of breeding.

What I find most curious is how sometimes these late or early breeding patterns are not localized at all, but are spread over vast areas of the country, all the way from WI to TN. I have no idea what could effect daylight activity over such vast areas, but I've seen examples of this many times.

 

[Mike Belt]

You want to take a stab at the reasoning for the lack of rubs at Ames (not just this year)? We have a great percentage of mature bucks. Over the years we've had great mast crops as well as poor mast crops. We always have healthy ag and browse resources. We always have quite a bit of early scraping and massive amounts into the first part of November. I've seen fewer rubs in the last 8 years than I've seen in a year's time in some other hunting locations.

 

[doubledownranch]

I've yet to find a rub except the massive one on my new Apple Tree!! Literally the only rub I've seen on 130 acres that is full of deer.

 

[McCoy]

BSK, thank you for the help. Great information to know and be able to use to my advantage!

 

[woodsman87]

I haven't seen a rub yet this year, but I don't go stomping through the woods looking for them either. I always try to hunt food sources or funnels during the rut.

I have seen these big signpost rubs, but I have never seen a deer work one, and they never come back year after year.

I do no understand why their seems to be a "norm" accross the entire U.S. where people have signpost rubs on their land, and scrapes that are used before and after rut.

All my rubs are made only yearly, and do not think I have ever encountered a rub that was used the following year. Scrapes are always in the same spots, but that just means it is good licking branches and areas where bucks like to work my logging roads and field/thicket edges. They work these scrapes from Late october until about Thanksgiving, main chase phase in my experience is right around Thanksgiving until about December 10th. You read and hear people say that they return to work scrapes after rut, but it doesn't happen here.

I don't know if it means they nearly all get killed, there arent many 3-1/2 year old + bucks to work scrapes/rubs, or what. That is why I am always so skeptical about what other people say and what I read. I have never encountered it not just on my #1 hunting place, but my other places that a go a few times as well.

 

[Engine2c]

I'm not seeing the rubs yet that I normally do. Just the usual signpost here and there in the same area they appear year after year. Scrape activity has been minimal so far too. There are plenty of deer around. I've got several buck pictures, 3 of them for sure mature bucks, but the rubs just aren't there like they usually are.

 

[Winchester]

I haven't seen a rub yet this year, but I don't go stomping through the woods looking for them either. I always try to hunt food sources or funnels during the rut.

I have seen these big signpost rubs, but I have never seen a deer work one, and they never come back year after year.

I do no understand why their seems to be a "norm" accross the entire U.S. where people have signpost rubs on their land, and scrapes that are used before and after rut.

All my rubs are made only yearly, and do not think I have ever encountered a rub that was used the following year. Scrapes are always in the same spots, but that just means it is good licking branches and areas where bucks like to work my logging roads and field/thicket edges. They work these scrapes from Late october until about Thanksgiving, main chase phase in my experience is right around Thanksgiving until about December 10th. You read and hear people say that they return to work scrapes after rut, but it doesn't happen here.

I don't know if it means they nearly all get killed, there arent many 3-1/2 year old + bucks to work scrapes/rubs, or what. That is why I am always so skeptical about what other people say and what I read. I have never encountered it not just on my #1 hunting place, but my other places that a go a few times as well.

That's odd 87, most if not all properties I have had access to over the years for any length of time (more than 2 yrs in a row) all have had signpost rubs. These are normally some of if not the largest in a given area, and will get reworked year after year. An example that comes to mind is in the Midwest where these rubs are actually on fenceposts where small trees are scarce. These signposts on fenceposts ha, will actually result in the fencepost being rubbed until its wears so thin it breaks in half. This doesn't happen on live trees obviously as they grow and repair themselves somewhat from yr to yr. These rubs will almost always be in very high traffic areas for the deer, and even though the older mature bucks initiate them, they will be used by every deer passing through the area. Some deer wont actually rub the tree with their antlers but will simply rub it with their forehead and deposit scent on the tree. This is where the story comes from people seeing lil buttons supposedly making rubs on trees, very likely just depositing scent.
All that said, even most of my Signpost rubs are still dead as of right now this year. Very odd but I think its tied to our mast failure here where Im hunting.

 

[Andy S.]

You want to take a stab at the reasoning for the lack of rubs at Ames (not just this year)? We have a great percentage of mature bucks. Over the years we've had great mast crops as well as poor mast crops. We always have healthy ag and browse resources. We always have quite a bit of early scraping and massive amounts into the first part of November. I've seen fewer rubs in the last 8 years than I've seen in a year's time in some other hunting locations.

I agree Mike, this is a million dollar question, as I would love a valid explanation for what I have "observed" since I first began deer hunting at Ames. I found better buck sign, particularity large rubs, the number of rubs, and more concentrated rubs in small areas the first few years I was in Ames, during the infant stages of our QDM program, than I ever have since then. I have no clue why this is the case, but it has been my observations since I began hunting there. In essence, my observations seem to suggest that the density of rubs where I have walked and scouted is inversely proportional to the age of our QDM program (longer we do it, the less rubs and for certain the less big rubs I find where I scout). To further substantiate my claim, I walked/scouted from 8AM-4PM this past Saturday (8-10 miles) going slow in a zig-zag pattern in hopes of finding some promising looking buck sign, but to no avail. I have no clue why the buck sign, in particular rubs, has become so hard to stumble across, at least for me that is. Is it me and my good luck (pun intended), or is it something to it? I have often wondered if the rubs are there, just are not in the "areas" that are walkable/accessible by foot. In other words, the rubs are so deep and hidden in the thick pines/cutover/bedding areas, that I cannot get to them on foot, thus I cannot see them, thus I think they have disappeared, when they have not? Could this maybe be linked to where the does spend most of their time NOW since we hammer the does and they dare not venture out in the open woods like they did in 2003-2005 when we first started hammering them? I do not know, I am just thinking out loud here. With that said, I will be back at it this Fri-Mon in another effort to see what I can discover.

 

[woodsman87]

I haven't seen a rub yet this year, but I don't go stomping through the woods looking for them either. I always try to hunt food sources or funnels during the rut.

I have seen these big signpost rubs, but I have never seen a deer work one, and they never come back year after year.

I do no understand why their seems to be a "norm" accross the entire U.S. where people have signpost rubs on their land, and scrapes that are used before and after rut.

All my rubs are made only yearly, and do not think I have ever encountered a rub that was used the following year. Scrapes are always in the same spots, but that just means it is good licking branches and areas where bucks like to work my logging roads and field/thicket edges. They work these scrapes from Late october until about Thanksgiving, main chase phase in my experience is right around Thanksgiving until about December 10th. You read and hear people say that they return to work scrapes after rut, but it doesn't happen here.

I don't know if it means they nearly all get killed, there arent many 3-1/2 year old + bucks to work scrapes/rubs, or what. That is why I am always so skeptical about what other people say and what I read. I have never encountered it not just on my #1 hunting place, but my other places that a go a few times as well.

That's odd 87, most if not all properties I have had access to over the years for any length of time (more than 2 yrs in a row) all have had signpost rubs. These are normally some of if not the largest in a given area, and will get reworked year after year. An example that comes to mind is in the Midwest where these rubs are actually on fenceposts where small trees are scarce. These signposts on fenceposts ha, will actually result in the fencepost being rubbed until its wears so thin it breaks in half. This doesn't happen on live trees obviously as they grow and repair themselves somewhat from yr to yr. These rubs will almost always be in very high traffic areas for the deer, and even though the older mature bucks initiate them, they will be used by every deer passing through the area. Some deer wont actually rub the tree with their antlers but will simply rub it with their forehead and deposit scent on the tree. This is where the story comes from people seeing lil buttons supposedly making rubs on trees, very likely just depositing scent.
All that said, even most of my Signpost rubs are still dead as of right now this year. Very odd but I think its tied to our mast failure here where Im hunting.

I understand that it is odd, but it is what it is. I have seen the rubs on cedar and beech trees that are anywhere from the size of my wrist to a little smaller than my thigh, but they are never re-used the next year. It probably means something that I don't want, lack of older bucks or bucks in general.
Hunting pressure has always been super high in these parts.

 

[BSK]

Mike,

I've never understood Ames lack of rubbing activity. That just doesn't match what I've seen EVERYWHERE else in the country.

 

[fairchaser]

You want to take a stab at the reasoning for the lack of rubs at Ames (not just this year)? We have a great percentage of mature bucks. Over the years we've had great mast crops as well as poor mast crops. We always have healthy ag and browse resources. We always have quite a bit of early scraping and massive amounts into the first part of November. I've seen fewer rubs in the last 8 years than I've seen in a year's time in some other hunting locations.

I agree Mike, this is a million dollar question, as I would love a valid explanation for what I have "observed" since I first began deer hunting at Ames. I found better buck sign, particularity large rubs, the number of rubs, and more concentrated rubs in small areas the first few years I was in Ames, during the infant stages of our QDM program, than I ever have since then. I have no clue why this is the case, but it has been my observations since I began hunting there. In essence, my observations seem to suggest that the density of rubs where I have walked and scouted is inversely proportional to the age of our QDM program (longer we do it, the less rubs and for certain the less big rubs I find where I scout). To further substantiate my claim, I walked/scouted from 8AM-4PM this past Saturday (8-10 miles) going slow in a zig-zag pattern in hopes of finding some promising looking buck sign, but to no avail. I have no clue why the buck sign, in particular rubs, has become so hard to stumble across, at least for me that is. Is it me and my good luck (pun intended), or is it something to it? I have often wondered if the rubs are there, just are not in the "areas" that are walkable/accessible by foot. In other words, the rubs are so deep and hidden in the thick pines/cutover/bedding areas, that I cannot get to them on foot, thus I cannot see them, thus I think they have disappeared, when they have not? Could this maybe be linked to where the does spend most of their time NOW since we hammer the does and they dare not venture out in the open woods like they did in 2003-2005 when we first started hammering them? I do not know, I am just thinking out loud here. With that said, I will be back at it this Fri-Mon in another effort to see what I can discover.

I am certainly no expert on Ames like you guys. This is only my fourth year but like everyone else, I have my opinions. Some rubbing behavior is just natural for bucks so they are likely to do it regardless. But there is also a practical component and that is signposting or advertising. When you have a high percentage of mature bucks, maybe its smarter to lay low or otherwise invite trouble from the competition. I believe therefore the rubbing which leaves preorbital scent and therefore identifies a certain buck or bucks maybe close to their bedding areas only and therefore we see less of it scattered through the woods. Some folks will tell you in places there is so much sign especially scrapes that its overkill. I think small bucks are just going wild making 20 or 30 scrapes a night. My guess would be it has something to do with the competition of other mature bucks. I noticed that Ensley had a few rubs but it wasn't covered up in rubs and the ones found were very close to the bucks primary bedding areas. They would certainly have a higher percentage of mature bucks and more bucks total with the higher ratios at Ames. I am still in first grade on how to hunt Ames. It is different than any place I have ever hunted and learning more everytime I hunt.

 

[Mike Belt]

I agree that much of the rubbing at Ames may be done in the thick, nasty stuff because where I have ventured into it I've always found some. It is purely contradictory to everything I "think" I know about mature buck behavior or any buck behavior for that matter, to not find any more rubbing activity outside these nasty areas than I've found over the years. I just can't believe they reserve all their rubbing efforts for the thick stuff. I'm not saying I don't find any and I can only wish to meet up with a few of the bucks making some of the rubs I do find, but I've never hunted anywhere else with such a yearly lack of them visible to someone who puts in a bunch of miles looking.

fairchaser...Have you ever been to PI around rut time? That place was covered up with mature bucks and there were rubs everywhere and I mean everywhere. There were so many that you almost became immune to seeing 8-12" diameter trees stripped from the waist down and there were car hood sized scrapes almost so thick you could skip from one to the next. Those bucks weren't afraid of advertising and I don't really think ours are either. For whatever reason our buck population just doesn't seem to display the typical buck behavior of rubbing found elsewhere. I hate it because I love finding freshly scarred trees. That being said there are a couple of places I know where I find huge signpost rubs yearly on the same trees. I doubt the same bucks that initiated some of them are still alive.

 

[BSK]

Mike,

I do believe the lack of rubbing at Ames is some sort of localized behavioral trait. I don't think it is an indicator of any type of problem.

Like you said, the sign at PI is what you would expect to see in a high buck age structure area, and if I didn't know differently, I would have guaranteed Ames would look the same way.

 

[BSK]

Woodsman87,

I have no ides why rubs on your property aren't being used in following years. This would suggest few resident older bucks exist, but even seasonal range-shifters will initiate/work signposts, and I know you get some of these every year.

On my property, it is VERY difficult to find a cedar tree that has not been rubbed at least once, if not several times. All cedars and most pines carry rub scars.

 

[fairchaser]

I agree that much of the rubbing at Ames may be done in the thick, nasty stuff because where I have ventured into it I've always found some. It is purely contradictory to everything I "think" I know about mature buck behavior or any buck behavior for that matter, to not find any more rubbing activity outside these nasty areas than I've found over the years. I just can't believe they reserve all their rubbing efforts for the thick stuff. I'm not saying I don't find any and I can only wish to meet up with a few of the bucks making some of the rubs I do find, but I've never hunted anywhere else with such a yearly lack of them visible to someone who puts in a bunch of miles looking.


fairchaser...Have you ever been to PI around rut time? That place was covered up with mature bucks and there were rubs everywhere and I mean everywhere. There were so many that you almost became immune to seeing 8-12" diameter trees stripped from the waist down and there were car hood sized scrapes almost so thick you could skip from one to the next. Those bucks weren't afraid of advertising and I don't really think ours are either. For whatever reason our buck population just doesn't seem to display the typical buck behavior of rubbing found elsewhere. I hate it because I love finding freshly scarred trees. That being said there are a couple of places I know where I find huge signpost rubs yearly on the same trees. I doubt the same bucks that initiated some of them are still alive.

Never hunted PI but hunted Ensley twice and walked from one end to the other. Found some rubs but not in numbers like you might expect. Maybe it's idiosyncratic like Ames.

 

[Bullfrog]

One thing I have noticed on our farm this year, is that hardly any old rubs have been re-used, in some of our better areas. There are new rubs within just a few yards of old ones, but one that I've found have been old rubs, re-used. Not real worried about it, but thought it was a little weird.