Rubs

[W.Seay]

Just thinking.... All the mature bucks I've seen or killed, were in areas with very little sign (big rubs,few scrapes) however all were within one or two leaps from Very thick cover.

 

[Mike Belt]

At Ames if I had to depend on finding rubs for likely hunting spots I'd be in trouble. I find very few until later in the season.

 

[Jackman]

First time in 5 years there is hardly any sign where my stand is. Between two thickets on the edge of a creek. I hope your luck becomes my luck

 

[BSK]

Just thinking.... All the mature bucks I've seen or killed, were in areas with very little sign (big rubs,few scrapes) however all were within one or two leaps from Very thick cover.

Back when I first ran the calculations, only 40% of my property was within 100 yards of thick cover. Just over 50% of our hunting hours were spent within that 100 yard boundary area. Yet 90+% of our 3 1/2+ year-old buck sightings occurred within 100 yards of thick sanctuary cover.

Now, after seeing that data, much more of our hunting time is spent within 100 yards of thick cover.

 

[W.Seay]

No doubt, if it isn't thick I don't hunt it!

 

[muddyboots]

Big rubs are pretty to look at but usually not good for hunting Although my buddy killed a 138 10 point around 4 arm sized rubs.

 

[Boll Weevil]

I've yet to stumble onto the first rub this year...but that isn't unusual for my farm. Of course I don't go intentionally looking for them either, but am only hunting the edges of bedrooms until things warm up a bit.

As I think back on it though, the bigger deer I've killed weren't in areas with tons of sign either. They were mostly in travel corridors and all were either pushing a doe or cruising for one.

 

[BSK]

I'm seeing a distinct lack of rubs this year. Don't know why. But scrapes are plentiful.

 

[7wsm]

im seeing more rubs now than i did last year this time but no scrapes yet.

 

[JCDEERMAN]

I'm seeing a distinct lack of rubs this year. Don't know why. But scrapes are plentiful.

I'm seeing the exact same thing

 

[chubacabra]

I have seen only one rub this year myself, very strange. I watched the deer make that one.

 

[BSK]

I'm seeing a fair number of big signpost rubs, but virtually no little finger and thumb-sized rubbed trees. Everything I've seen rubbed is big cedars and pines in all the typical signpost locations.

 

[Obsession]

I found a lot of rubs this weekend on my place. They very in size and some are clustered and some are random. I have been seeing rubs since opening day. I have yet to see a scrape. Is there any data that suggests mature bucks rub/scrape more often that immature bucks? Why are some rubs clustered and some that seem to be random?

 

[BSK]

I found a lot of rubs this weekend on my place. They very in size and some are clustered and some are random. I have been seeing rubs since opening day. I have yet to see a scrape. Is there any data that suggests mature bucks rub/scrape more often that immature bucks? Why are some rubs clustered and some that seem to be random?

Both rubbing and scraping tend to go hand-in-hand with competition levels between bucks. And this is partially about sex ratio and partially about buck age structure. The fewer does there are per buck, and the older the buck age structure, the more competition there will be between bucks for breeding rights, hence more sign-making (rubs and scrapes).

However, rubbing behavior has also been tightly tied to acorn crops in big hardwoods environments. More acorns means healthier deer in fall that have more excess energy to burn through rubbing.

 

[McCoy]

This is very interesting, yesterday I found without a doubt the best rub line I have ever found and still no scrapes (except my mocks). I very rarely find scrapes but there will be a few every year. This funnel I found the rubs in is approx 40-60 yards wide with 90% whiteoaks that have a great acorn crop, it goes through an old grown up field thats about 300 acres from one set of hardwoods to another. I have hunted in this same funnel for 3 years now and there were only a few rubs here and there up until this year, but now they are everywhere and even include 6 signpost rubs(i assume). This is the first I've heard of signpost rubs, could someone please explain these? I always thought they were just bigger/mature bucks. These that I found are around 6 inches in diameter give or take.

 

[BSK]

McCoy,

By definition, signpost rubs are trees that are rubbed year after year. They usually display considerable scarring from repeated years of rubbing.

That said, when I find a really large diameter tree rubbed for the first time, I generally refer to it as a signpost rub.

 

[thirdwilliam]

No rubs or scrapes last weekend, but this weekend, scrapes every where and a few rubs.Rubs seem less than previous years, but scrapes above average. Wilson county

 

[McCoy]

Thank you BSK. What do these larger diameter trees mean, if anything at all to age/maturity of a buck. Now that I know what it is there are several singpost rubs on this rub line that have been used at least the past three years I've hunted there. I moved a camera to the area yesterday for the first time. Thanks for the help.

 

[Winchester]

Rubs are virtually non existent here this year. I even spent several hours at ORWMA on the Scout day Sat afternoon, and after walking for 3+ hours and driving many miles on the old logging roads, saw exactly 1 rub. This goes hand in hand with what I have found on the other areas I hunt here, NO rubs at all so far. Matter of fact the one at OR makes #3 for the year that I have found! I think it has everything to do with the Total mast failure we have this yr, OR included as I found exactly 1 tree with just a few acorns under it, which is the first I have found all yr on all the places I have been here.
I think the deer, bucks included, are spending way more time and energy looking for food vs a year when they can gorge on acorns and be full in just a few mins. I think our rut is way more intense on good acorn yrs. I do think however that a lot of deer will be killed here this yr due to the fact they will HAVE to move much more to get the food they require during the colder weather.

 

[EastHipster]

That's interesting.

I think it's a case of being in the Buck's area.
I Hunt a 100 acre lot with a little bit of Pasture and a House but mostly Woods and lots of Hills.

I have found 2 MAJOR Rub lines with lots of Fresh activity and they were showing up early in the season. I've also found small patches of Rubs and then smaller lines of 5 or 6 on trails.

But there are huge areas on the property where I don't see any at all.

Also, I've only found 2 serious Scrapes (where I KNOW that it is a real scrape) and they AREN'T in the same area as the Rub lines I have been seeing.

 

[BSK]

McCoy,

Rubs (and scrapes) are chemical communication devices. Think of rubs as pheromone wicks. Bucks leave scent from their forehead gland as they are making the rub. if you watch a buck make a rub he will stop every so often and sniff the rub. He is testing to see if it smells right yet. Exactly what chemicals are left on a rub, and their exact biological purposes, are not known, but it is strongly suspected these chemicals help maintain male social hierarchy, and in the Southeast, actually help maintain proper breeding timing.

Because rubs are communication devices, they are made where other deer will come in contact with them. This is especially true of signpost rubs. With the except of those made in an individual buck's bedding area, signpost rubs are almost always made in high deer interaction areas--where numerous deer travel patterns intersect. When I see signpost rubs outside of a bedding area, I know I'm looking at a spot where different buck and doe social group travel patterns funnel through a single spot or intersect at that spot. This can be anything from a habitat or terrain-based funnel to a staging area into a concentrated food source.

Only older bucks INITIATE big signpost rubs. However, once started, every buck that interacts with that rub will rework it, even down to the smallest spike. Even does will sniff and lick signpost rubs. This is how the chemical messages are transmitted. Once a signpost is created, they become like the fire hydrant ever dog goes out of his way to pee on and "leave his mark." During his doctorial research, my mentor monitored signpost rubs with the first production trail-cameras (back in the late 80s and early 90s). On one long-standing signpost rub, he acquired pictures of 13 different mature bucks working that rub in a single season. Once created, signpost rubs are VERY communally used.

 

[BSK]

Rubs are virtually non existent here this year. I even spent several hours at ORWMA on the Scout day Sat afternoon, and after walking for 3+ hours and driving many miles on the old logging roads, saw exactly 1 rub. This goes hand in hand with what I have found on the other areas I hunt here, NO rubs at all so far. Matter of fact the one at OR makes #3 for the year that I have found! I think it has everything to do with the Total mast failure we have this yr, OR included as I found exactly 1 tree with just a few acorns under it, which is the first I have found all yr on all the places I have been here.
I think the deer, bucks included, are spending way more time and energy looking for food vs a year when they can gorge on acorns and be full in just a few mins. I think our rut is way more intense on good acorn yrs. I do think however that a lot of deer will be killed here this yr due to the fact they will HAVE to move much more to get the food they require during the colder weather.

I agree that you are seeing the impact of a mast failure.

However, I have also noticed much less rubbing behavior this year, even in areas with a good acorn crop. I have no idea why rubbing behavior would be limited this year. I'm seeing a fair number of signpost rubs, but virtually none of the small rubs that usually ring every opening and brushy spot.

 

[Winchester]

Rubs are virtually non existent here this year. I even spent several hours at ORWMA on the Scout day Sat afternoon, and after walking for 3+ hours and driving many miles on the old logging roads, saw exactly 1 rub. This goes hand in hand with what I have found on the other areas I hunt here, NO rubs at all so far. Matter of fact the one at OR makes #3 for the year that I have found! I think it has everything to do with the Total mast failure we have this yr, OR included as I found exactly 1 tree with just a few acorns under it, which is the first I have found all yr on all the places I have been here.
I think the deer, bucks included, are spending way more time and energy looking for food vs a year when they can gorge on acorns and be full in just a few mins. I think our rut is way more intense on good acorn yrs. I do think however that a lot of deer will be killed here this yr due to the fact they will HAVE to move much more to get the food they require during the colder weather.

I agree that you are seeing the impact of a mast failure.

However, I have also noticed much less rubbing behavior this year, even in areas with a good acorn crop. I have no idea why rubbing behavior would be limited this year. I'm seeing a fair number of signpost rubs, but virtually none of the small rubs that usually ring every opening and brushy spot.

Interesting, Im anxious to see how this years rut plays out, Im somewhat worried to be honest!

 

[BSK]

I too am curious to see how the rut plays out. As I've said many times, breeding occurs on about the same dates every year, with each area having its own unique timing. HOWEVER, unpredictable combinations of environmental conditions can make it appear to the hunter that the rut is early or late, and sometimes these differences in OBSERVED DAYLIGHT rutting activity can be significantly different than the actual biological peak of breeding. When conducting breeding timing research in GA and SC, hunters sometimes reported peak daylight rutting activity two or more weeks different than the actual peak of breeding.

What I find most curious is how sometimes these late or early breeding patterns are not localized at all, but are spread over vast areas of the country, all the way from WI to TN. I have no idea what could effect daylight activity over such vast areas, but I've seen examples of this many times.

 

[Mike Belt]

You want to take a stab at the reasoning for the lack of rubs at Ames (not just this year)? We have a great percentage of mature bucks. Over the years we've had great mast crops as well as poor mast crops. We always have healthy ag and browse resources. We always have quite a bit of early scraping and massive amounts into the first part of November. I've seen fewer rubs in the last 8 years than I've seen in a year's time in some other hunting locations.

 

[doubledownranch]

I've yet to find a rub except the massive one on my new Apple Tree!! Literally the only rub I've seen on 130 acres that is full of deer.

 

[McCoy]

BSK, thank you for the help. Great information to know and be able to use to my advantage!

 

[woodsman87]

I haven't seen a rub yet this year, but I don't go stomping through the woods looking for them either. I always try to hunt food sources or funnels during the rut.

I have seen these big signpost rubs, but I have never seen a deer work one, and they never come back year after year.

I do no understand why their seems to be a "norm" accross the entire U.S. where people have signpost rubs on their land, and scrapes that are used before and after rut.

All my rubs are made only yearly, and do not think I have ever encountered a rub that was used the following year. Scrapes are always in the same spots, but that just means it is good licking branches and areas where bucks like to work my logging roads and field/thicket edges. They work these scrapes from Late october until about Thanksgiving, main chase phase in my experience is right around Thanksgiving until about December 10th. You read and hear people say that they return to work scrapes after rut, but it doesn't happen here.

I don't know if it means they nearly all get killed, there arent many 3-1/2 year old + bucks to work scrapes/rubs, or what. That is why I am always so skeptical about what other people say and what I read. I have never encountered it not just on my #1 hunting place, but my other places that a go a few times as well.

 

[Engine2c]

I'm not seeing the rubs yet that I normally do. Just the usual signpost here and there in the same area they appear year after year. Scrape activity has been minimal so far too. There are plenty of deer around. I've got several buck pictures, 3 of them for sure mature bucks, but the rubs just aren't there like they usually are.

 

[Winchester]

I haven't seen a rub yet this year, but I don't go stomping through the woods looking for them either. I always try to hunt food sources or funnels during the rut.

I have seen these big signpost rubs, but I have never seen a deer work one, and they never come back year after year.

I do no understand why their seems to be a "norm" accross the entire U.S. where people have signpost rubs on their land, and scrapes that are used before and after rut.

All my rubs are made only yearly, and do not think I have ever encountered a rub that was used the following year. Scrapes are always in the same spots, but that just means it is good licking branches and areas where bucks like to work my logging roads and field/thicket edges. They work these scrapes from Late october until about Thanksgiving, main chase phase in my experience is right around Thanksgiving until about December 10th. You read and hear people say that they return to work scrapes after rut, but it doesn't happen here.

I don't know if it means they nearly all get killed, there arent many 3-1/2 year old + bucks to work scrapes/rubs, or what. That is why I am always so skeptical about what other people say and what I read. I have never encountered it not just on my #1 hunting place, but my other places that a go a few times as well.

That's odd 87, most if not all properties I have had access to over the years for any length of time (more than 2 yrs in a row) all have had signpost rubs. These are normally some of if not the largest in a given area, and will get reworked year after year. An example that comes to mind is in the Midwest where these rubs are actually on fenceposts where small trees are scarce. These signposts on fenceposts ha, will actually result in the fencepost being rubbed until its wears so thin it breaks in half. This doesn't happen on live trees obviously as they grow and repair themselves somewhat from yr to yr. These rubs will almost always be in very high traffic areas for the deer, and even though the older mature bucks initiate them, they will be used by every deer passing through the area. Some deer wont actually rub the tree with their antlers but will simply rub it with their forehead and deposit scent on the tree. This is where the story comes from people seeing lil buttons supposedly making rubs on trees, very likely just depositing scent.
All that said, even most of my Signpost rubs are still dead as of right now this year. Very odd but I think its tied to our mast failure here where Im hunting.