Rubs

[Ski]

The recent scrape thread got me thinking about rubs. Just like I've noticed different types of scrapes, I've also noticed different types of rubs. This rub in particular is something I've seen people replicate with mock scrapes, but almost never see in the wild. It's a dual purpose scrape/rub. The tree is a 4" diameter beech and has a licking branch. They use it as a scrape but also rub on the tree. It gets used year round, year after year as a scrape. As a rub it gets used by many different bucks in Oct/Nov, and a whole lot of sniffing attention from does. Does come by and largely ignore the scrape but sniff all over the rubbed surface. It gets used so much I don't know how the tree is still alive.

By far & above, most rubs I come across are single use. Some are used year after year but only for a short time or only once per year, and those ones are in or very near a buck bed. This one is totally different. I suppose this is what folks call a signpost rub? It sure seems to serve as a grand central station. I've never hunted and not seen deer there.

What kind of weird rubs have yall come across? Anything that seems outside the norm or particularly busy?

 

[backyardtndeer]

Scent signposts get used year round, I have seen deer use a licking branch, both does and bucks on the same tree year round, then seen bucks use that same tree for scrapes in the fall. Never noticed does checking rubs, but guess they could.

 

[BSK]

The whole science of signpost rubs is fascinating, and still not that well understood. My mentor, Dr. Grant Woods, did his doctoral work on signpost rubs, and was the first to use motion sensitive cameras to document their use, proving that they are communal rubs, in that once initiated every buck in the area uses them. As well, he documented they are traditional, being rubbed year after year.

Another interesting point is that bucks show a real tree species preference for making signpost rubs, and my and others' rub research showed those preferences are different in different parts of the country. In essence, a species that is preferred in one area maybe completely ignored in another region, with a completely different top species for signposting.

 

[BDS05]

I've got a similar Beech. Branch diameter is 15-20' and it has a fresh rub, multiple does / bucks and 4-6 scrapes around the circumference every year.

Because of THAT tree, I make a B-line to investigate other Beech trees. A lot produce scrapes, most of those produce licking, very few of those produce rubs.

Per my trail cam, I've never had a "mature" deer in several years of monitoring and thousands of pictures visiting this site.

 

[peytoncreekhunter]

The whole science of signpost rubs is fascinating, and still not that well understood. My mentor, Dr. Grant Woods, did his doctoral work on signpost rubs, and was the first to use motion sensitive cameras to document their use, proving that they are communal rubs, in that once initiated every buck in the area uses them. As well, he documented they are traditional, being rubbed year after year.

Another interesting point is that bucks show a real tree species preference for making signpost rubs, and my and others' rub research showed those preferences are different in different parts of the country. In essence, a species that is preferred in one area maybe completely ignored in another region, with a completely different top species for signposting.

Do you mean a individual buck may prefer a cedar tree over another type of tree or the bucks as a whole in a region may prefer certain types of trees over others.

I've found in my hunting area (Carthage, Smith Co.) that certain areas on the 135 acres I hunt may have cedars rubbed and then other types rubbed in other areas. Then different types rubbed together in other areas.

I've been curious why bucks choose one tree over another. I'm sure there must be some reason for it. Hard to know what's going thru a bucks head.....lol

 

[Wrangler95]

In my county bucks prefer cedar and beech,always been that way and some on smaller pine trees!!

 

[Snake]

In my county bucks prefer cedar and beech,always been that way and some on smaller pine trees!!

In my area as well the trees you mentioned almost identical. But every now and then you can find a sapling of another kind .

 

[Ski]

I've not actually seen enough sign post rubs to determine a favorite tree species. The one I posted above is beech. As for other rubs I see them on various trees. Maple and ash saplings seem to be popular, as are cedar. A lot of the scrapes I find are beech.

 

[Shed Hunter]

The whole science of signpost rubs is fascinating, and still not that well understood. My mentor, Dr. Grant Woods, did his doctoral work on signpost rubs, and was the first to use motion sensitive cameras to document their use, proving that they are communal rubs, in that once initiated every buck in the area uses them. As well, he documented they are traditional, being rubbed year after year.

Another interesting point is that bucks show a real tree species preference for making signpost rubs, and my and others' rub research showed those preferences are different in different parts of the country. In essence, a species that is preferred in one area maybe completely ignored in another region, with a completely different top species for signposting.

Near you on the refuge I have found some very impressive sign post rubs. All on pine trees

In fact while most rubs I find are on cedar or young pines-all sign posts I have found in TN are on pines

 

[Ski]

In my experience, sign posts are by far the least common type of rub. And to be completely honest, I have no idea how one would identify it as a sign post without long term observation, say from a camera. I don't normally hang cams watching rubs so maybe they're more common than I think. Most rubs I see are either frustration or show rubs, rub lines, or bed rubs. Most bed rubs I see are big like the sign post, and they generally get hit multiple times but by the same buck as he gets out of bed & stretches.

I also find plenty of scrapes where the tree got rubbed. But they're generally insignificant and short lasting. It's almost always a pre-rut thing. And I find lots of scrape trees that never get rubbed. So the true sign post rubs are an enigma to me. I wouldn't be able to recognize one as such without long term monitoring. They look just like any other rub to me. So for you savvy scouters out there who don't mind sharing, exactly what is it about a sign post that makes you know it's a sign post, without the long term monitoring?

 

[BSK]

Do you mean a individual buck may prefer a cedar tree over another type of tree or the bucks as a whole in a region may prefer certain types of trees over others.

I've found in my hunting area (Carthage, Smith Co.) that certain areas on the 135 acres I hunt may have cedars rubbed and then other types rubbed in other areas. Then different types rubbed together in other areas.

I've been curious why bucks choose one tree over another. I'm sure there must be some reason for it. Hard to know what's going thru a bucks head.....lol

Bucks in different regions prefer different species.

In my decade-long rub research I found that for small diameter rubbed trees, the species chosen basically match the species available. In essence, there is no preference for rubbing small diameter trees. But as the rubbed trees get larger, the number of species declines. Once bucks get to rubbing fairly large diameter trees, they were down to just 5 species used. Those species were, in order of preference, Cedar, Loblolly Pine, Beech, Maple and Poplar. Dr. Woods research in South Carolina found a very strong preference for Sassafras for signpost rubbing.

Several theories have been bounced around concerning tree species preference. One is that bucks choose aromatics trees when rubbed. Cedar, sassafras, and to a lesser degree Pine all have that attribute. However, many other preferred species do not. In my opinion, bucks choose species of tree with very bright inner bark, so the rub is highly visible.

 

[BSK]

Near you on the refuge I have found some very impressive sign post rubs. All on pine trees

In fact while most rubs I find are on cedar or young pines-all sign posts I have found in TN are on pines

Although I have conducted rub research, and looked for signposts rubs, all over the country, the largest signpost rub I've ever documented was on the Refuge, not far from my place. The rub was on a cedar that at the center of the rub was 31" in circumference, which is the size of my waist!

 

[BSK]

In my experience, sign posts are by far the least common type of rub.

You are correct. MOST rubs are one time deals and not revisited.

And to be completely honest, I have no idea how one would identify it as a sign post without long term observation, say from a camera.

By the scarring on the tree. If the initial year of being rubbed doesn't kill the tree, the tree will try to heal the rubbed area, producing a scar. With practice, and knowing the growth rate of the species, you can even give an age to the scars (as they change with time). Below is a picture of a cedar with multiple scars from previous years, but is also rubbed again the year I took the picture.

 

[BSK]

When I did my decade-long rub research project, we actually marked rubbed trees with a tiny aluminum tag with the identification data on the tag. That way, in future years we could be positive if the same tree was rubbed again.

 

[Ski]

Several theories have been bounced around concerning tree species preference. One is that bucks choose aromatics trees when rubbed. Cedar, sassafras, and to a lesser degree Pine all have that attribute. However, many other preferred species do not.

Beech is the only one I don't understand. Maple has aromatic qualities. Maybe too faint for us but for a deer maple sap would undoubtedly smell like pure sugar. I do agree all those species mentioned show up bright when rubbed, so that could be a factor. The one obvious caveat for me either way is spice bush. It's bright white under the bark and is aromatic as anything in the woods, yet deer don't rub them.....or eat them. I have seen deer scrape under them.

By the scarring on the tree. If the initial year of being rubbed doesn't kill the tree, the tree will try to heal the rubbed area, producing a scar. With practice, and knowing the growth rate of the species, you can even give an age to the scars (as they change with time). Below is a picture of a cedar with multiple scars from previous years, but is also rubbed again the year I took the picture.

Not to be argumentative, but how do you know they are sign posts and not just a tree that has been rubbed in successive years? I've seen that happen pretty often near buck beds. There's a big one on a cedar here locally. The bed sits down in a dip and right on the edge facing into the dip is the cedar. It gets rubbed every year but I've not hung a cam to see if it's just one deer or multiple. I don't go in there during season, only in off season when looking for sheds & scouting. But this year I think I'll hang a camera just out of curiosity. This rub stuff has me intrigued. Maybe I've been too dismissive of rubs. Seems a good sign post rub could be more of a hotspot than a good scrape.

 

[BSK]

Not to be argumentative, but how do you know they are sign posts and not just a tree that has been rubbed in successive years?

Always a possibility. However, I don't believe Dr. Woods - only rub research projects I know of with extensive use of cameras on the rubs - found any rerubbed large-diameter trees that did not become communal rubs. But again, possible.

 

[Tanelson43]

I know the size of rubs can be misleading but I do think the type of trees being rubbed can give good information. When I find white oak and dogwoods that have been rubbed in the areas I hunt I always have a good sized mature deer on camera. Usually when I have a deer that I know is 4.5 or older I find alot of those rubs in their core areas. I could be completely off base but this is, but it is what I have observed the last few years.

 

[Shed Hunter]

Although I have conducted rub research, and looked for signposts rubs, all over the country, the largest signpost rub I've ever documented was on the Refuge, not far from my place. The rub was on a cedar that at the center of the rub was 31" in circumference, which is the size of my waist!

I cannot for the life of me find the two most well defined rub pictures from the refuge. These are some other from that same general area, but by most well defined I was hoping to show the ones that had been rubbed so many years the trees were 2" thinner at the rubbed area as opposed to the rest of the tree. Similar to the pine in the darkest picture attached. I also found a picture of one I found in KY last year similar to what I mean (the tree with a bend in upward growth at the point of the rub)

The largest diameter rub was hit the next year as well as the cedar tree. I never checked on them since but I feel like those were more recent sign posts as opposed to the work down trees that are obviously sign posts from years ago

I've seen pictures from places farther west where there aren't quite as many trees where fence posts are almost rubbed completely into. These places seem to produce some nice trail camera photos from these rubs as deer frequent them much more

 

[BSK]

EXCELLENT pictures Shed Hunter!

In Grant's research, that lasted for a number of years, one of the signpost rubs he was monitoring (on a sassafras), eventually got rubbed so many times the tree eventually broke over.

 

[BSK]

I know the size of rubs can be misleading...

I don't think the size of rubbed signposts are misleading at all, except for the fact once created every buck in the area will work them, including little yearling spikes. Hunters see or get a picture of a little spike working the huge signpost and think, "See, big rubs mean nothing." Actually, some big old buck created that signpost, so having it around means there are some big, old bucks around.

 

[BSK]

Nobody really knows the biological reason for signpost rubs, but they do appear to be "pheromone wicks" where bucks leave the scent from their forehead glands on the tree. Each subsequent deer that visits the rub sniffs and licks these pheromones. Exactly what these pheromones do is the question. It has been known for years that older more dominant bucks produce different pheromones than younger subordinate bucks, and the presence of an older buck in the herd reduces testosterone production in young bucks, lessening their desire to breed (a good thing biologically). I remember one study with deer in several acre enclosures where a real signpost rub was cut down and placed in the enclosure with young bucks. Having the signpost where the young bucks could interact with it had the exact same result as actually having a dominant buck in the enclosure - the young bucks testosterone production immediately declined. So it appears that signpost rubs serve the same purpose as having a dominant buck actually in the area. Deer appear to use signpost rubs to spread their "chemical influences" (pheromones) around without having to be close by.

For me, an even bigger question is "What is the difference chemically between a signpost rub and a scrape?" Both are primarily buck-to-buck communication devices, helping to establish and spread social hierarchy, but also appear to help time estrus in female groups. So why the two different behaviors, and what different chemicals are involved?

 

[Tanelson43]

I don't think the size of rubbed signposts are misleading at all, except for the fact once created every buck in the area will work them, including little yearling spikes. Hunters see or get a picture of a little spike working the huge signpost and think, "See, big rubs mean nothing." Actually, some big old buck created that signpost, so having it around means there are some big, old bucks around.

I was talking more about regular rubs. I do have 3 cedar trees on my property that get rubbed every year. I have owned the property for 4 years and found those trees the first time I walked the property. I have placed cams on them but always too late. There are deer of all sizes and ages that travel through my property so I am sure they all hit those rubs at some point.

 

[BSK]

My mistake Tanelson43. One thing I can guarantee, little rubs mean nothing. Every buck of every age and size makes little rubs. Seeing one doesn't mean a young buck made it.

 

[Ski]

For me, an even bigger question is "What is the difference chemically between a signpost rub and a scrape?" Both are primarily buck-to-buck communication devices, helping to establish and spread social hierarchy, but also appear to help time estrus in female groups. So why the two different behaviors, and what different chemicals are involved?

I don't see them necessarily being primarily buck-to-buck communication. They're both certainly initiated by bucks and most aggressively used by bucks, but with scrapes I see at least as much doe activity as I do bucks. It's 100% two way communication.....with some caveats. Before breeding takes place I see does rub their faces on licking branches, and often they urinate or defecate while doing so. I've even seen them pause in place for a little while so they could defecate at the scrape. However, after they get bred they tend to ignore scrapes. It always seems to be the oldest does first, with younger does being interested further into the season, and fawns staying interested all the way through. So it appears that a doe's interest in the scrape is reliant, as you say, on her estrus cycle. Up until she's bred it has been my observation that she actively communicates through the scrape almost as if she's reporting her current status to the buck(s).

Coincidentally(or not), when the matriarch does begin ignoring scrapes is also about when I notice a drop in scrape activity and soon after a turnover of bucks. Bucks that were around pre-rut through first phase of breeding largely disappear and new bucks begin showing up. Same thing repeats with younger does but it seems less intense and is drawn out until things trickle off completely. I see two rotations of bucks in fall & winter. The latest rotaton seems to always be at the end f season or after it's already closed. I always see a new big boy or two show up looking for girls after season is over, thinking to myself that I wish they were around during season. There's some kind of complex dynamic happening that I recognize but don't really understand. It's as if they're purposely diversifying genetics.

With rubs it's different. I only know of a few true legit sign post rubs, or at least busy ones, so I can't comment much because I don't know much. But of the ones I have had the pleasure of monitoring, I see does interact with them. They don't rub their heads like the bucks do, but they stop to take a whiff. They stick their noses right to the rub. I have no idea if they're leaving scent by doing that or communicating back to the bucks, but it's apparent the does are interested in the rubs. Whether the bucks are communicating something to them or only toward other bucks I don't really know. But the does do indeed pay attention. My stance for now, based on my limited knowledge, is that sign post rubs serve more as a "sign in" station for bucks while scrapes are social media dating sites.

 

[Tanelson43]

My mistake Tanelson43. One thing I can guarantee, little rubs mean nothing. Every buck of every age and size makes little rubs. Seeing one doesn't mean a young buck made it.

Oh I agree 100%.

 

[BSK]

Research shows that signpost rubs and scrapes (the actual scrape itself) are primarily buck-to-buck communication devices that help establish social pecking order and dominance status. However, that doesn't mean they don't also play a role with male-female communication. In signpost rub research, females were photographed sniffing and licking signpost rubs, which means they are picking up whatever pheromones are being deposited. Does were even photographed backing up to signpost rubs and rubbing their butts on them. What this means is unknown. As for scrapes (the actual scrape on the ground), they are created by bucks under traditional licking branches that are maintained year-round primarily by does. Does will completely ignore the scrape on the ground until their hormones begin to change as the breeding season approaches. In fact, I've found that does primarily ignore the scrape on the ground - only continuing to work the overhanging limb - until about 5 days before they come into estrus. Up until that time, the scrape itself, which may have been opened a month to month and a half earlier, is only worked by bucks, hence is primarily a buck-to buck communication device.

But again, signpost rubs and scrapes do play a role in estrus timing. In the north estrus timing is so critical to fawn survival that estrus timing is deeply genetically ingrained into the population. However, in the Southeast, lacking severe winter and early spring conditions, estrus timing is more fluid. Signpost rubs and scrapes appear to keep estrus somewhat earlier and definitely more tightly timed. A tightly timed estrus ensures the genetic diversity that makes whitetails such a uniquely successful species. When all of the females in a local does social group come into estrus around the same time, one buck cannot breed all of these does. This means that although all of the females in the group are related on the female side, each will produce an offspring from a different father. Again, ensuring maximum genetic diversity within localized populations.

 

[trout]

This has been a very informative thread! Thanks for sharing all of these insights and perspectives.

 

[peytoncreekhunter]

Does were even photographed backing up to signpost rubs and rubbing their butts on them. What this means is unknown.

Same old story........ a woman telling a man to kiss her arse.....

 

[BSK]

Same old story........ a woman telling a man to kiss her arse.....

HA!