Rage users....

[bigorangmd]

It's not a new law they are springing on us. If you look at the TWRA post Alan P the region 1 biologist says he's been with the agency for 25 years and the barbed broadhead was on the books when he got there. Someone just brought up that this might pertain to current mechanical type broadheads and I'm glad they brought it up. There are quite a few states that have this law and you'd think the manufacturers would have a disclaimer but it's up to us to know the law. Remember ignorance of the law is not an excuse. You can still be cited even if you weren't aware. Thank goodness we had someone bring this up and thanks to our TWRA guys (SCN especially) for taking the time to go check out the ones we were talking about and give their opinion - they didn't have to). It really is a pretty common sense law and not open to interpretation, either the mechanical locks in place when open past a 90 degree angle or it doesn't. If we claim to be able to estimate a deers age or whether he grosses 120" or better in the field I would think we have the ability to look at our broadheads and see if they are legal or not.

 

[JayMc]

Just doesn't seem fair that the TWRA can change something this close to start of the season because it won't be in the book. I think many of us needed more of a heads up. Also I think it's getting to the point that there needs to be a list of illegal heads in the book if they are going to start splitting hairs. Seems that so far there is no black and white, just a gray area. And i think leaving it up to the individual officer is BS too. It's either illegal or its legal. Either way it's a little late to put it in the book, and until it's in the book it aint official. Think of how many guys that don't hang out on here but do read the book could be screwed by this. If it isn't in the book it won't stand IMO. You have to state the law CLEARLY before enforcing it. my 2cents. Either way it appears from the link posted at the begining of this thread that the 2 blade rage heads will be legal so I'll be good anyway.

Copied from the book on page 20...

LEGAL Equipment
Deer, Bear, ELK and Wild Hog Hunting

5. Hunting arrows and bolts with broadheads shall be of a barbless design and shall have sharpened blades.

I think that's pretty clear. TWRA doesn't (nor should it) have the burden of specifically identifying which broadheads are or aren't barbed. The rule is no barbs and has been for a long time.

It is nice to get a specific ruling on certain heads, but in all reality it's a caveat emptor situation.

 

[Hoss]

Having a list of legal or illegal heads is not practical. Heads are changed, modified, upgraded, invented, discontinued and altered by the hunter every DAY (Heck I know a couple of guys who make their own broadheads). The TWRA or TNDEER or no one else can stay up to date on this. All that can be done is evaluate a head when a question is brought up. That is exactly what happened in this case.
Upon further review the head was determined to be barbed. That means it does not meet the regulation. That is all this is.

It is not the first time this has happened. Hoyt came out with a broadhead in the 80's called a rock chucker or something like that. It was a great head and gaining popularity when it was decided that it too was barbed. The head was redesigned and released the next year under a different name.

SO my guess is that next year the broadheads in question will get a redesign and come back next year as the new and improved Rage 3 blade, and meet the legal regulation.

 

[HOOK]

Everyone will have their own opinion and view. I fell victim to advertising and tried the rage two blade last season. I have not lost a bow shot deer in quite some time, but last season lost two...and before you ask...Yes I know how to kill deer with a bow. So, needless to say to start back making a harvest I went back to my favorite stand-by the 3 bladed muzzie. As previously stated...don't fix what ain't broke. That is a golden rule of mine and I broke it. In short what I'm trying to say is...who really cares?? Just use what works for you and leave it at that.

 

[Mr.Bro]

Amazing how many people will choose which laws to follow.Follow the ones you want to and the hell with the rest.Thats sad.

 

[bobthebowhunter]

So far none of us are poachers. They locked the TWRA thread because they couldn't give us a straight answer. All we got was one officer's opinion. And I'm sorry but I'm not taking one fella's opinion as the law. And what about all the guys that don't hang out on here. How are they gonna know about this new addition to the list of illegal broad heads? Don't matter anyway for me I'm shooting the 2 blade.

 

[Otterman]

So far none of us are poachers. They locked the TWRA thread because they couldn't give us a straight answer. All we got was one officer's opinion. And I'm sorry but I'm not taking one fella's opinion as the law. And what about all the guys that don't hang out on here. How are they gonna know about this new addition to the list of illegal broad heads? Don't matter anyway for me I'm shooting the 2 blade.

There's not a "LIST" it has to do with the design, and the law is pretty clear. And not respecting a TWRA Officer's opinion of the law is what gives hunters a bad rap. Show a little respect.

 

[bigorangmd]

Those that don't take the officers opinion get to hear the judge's.

 

[Andy S.]

Those that don't take the officers opinion get to hear the judge's.

Yep. Judge's opinions tend to be "costly" as well.

 

[bobthebowhunter]

Those that don't take the officers opinion get to hear the judge's.

Not to worried about the judge or the officers. I'll be shooting the 2 blades this year....Actually i think I already said that in a couple of my posts. Yall must have just had your nose so far up TWRA's a.. that you didn't see the whole post.
Opinions will not stand as the law.

Past that I believe I'll hang this one up. Yall say what you want, but I know I'm legal every year. And if you don't like what I'm sayin don't read it.

 

[tnbowhunter3]

I started the whole thing by asking about the TEKKEN.I found out they were illegal in some other states and took one to the jackson office.Many officers(on here)and the head man said can't use them and I won't.I think it was better to find out now because "I did not know" will not stand up in court.It does hurt my wallet to buy diff broadheads but it was worth it.

 

[bigorangmd]

Those that don't take the officers opinion get to hear the judge's.

Not to worried about the judge or the officers. I'll be shooting the 2 blades this year....Actually i think I already said that in a couple of my posts. Yall must have just had your nose so far up TWRA's a.. that you didn't see the whole post.
Opinions will not stand as the law.

Past that I believe I'll hang this one up. Yall say what you want, but I know I'm legal every year. And if you don't like what I'm sayin don't read it.

I caught the fact that you were going to be using Rage 2 blades. It's the statement that "I'm not taking one fella's opinion as law". Further you posted "Opinions will not stand as law." Actually they will. When a judge enters a legal ruling it is called an "opinion". The law is not opinion based; the guidelines are straight forward." It was kind of the TWRA guys here to look at the broadheads for us and give us their opinion, as they are the ones who will be handing out citations; it's their opinion that matters." It's sort of like when I was young if I did something wrong I might not agree with my dad's "opinion" but since he had the belt...it was as good as law. And yes if you want to put it that I have my head up the TWRA's... I do. These are guys who love hunting and wildlife. The few officers I know have all but given up most of the hunting they love because it's their "tax season" so to speak and they are always busy. They are only helping us out and every time I've been checked coming out of the woods I've been sure to thank the officer. He's not trying to bust me (since I'm a legal hunter), he's there to make my experience better. I try to let people who help know that I appreciate their help. If that's "having my head up their ...", so be it. Here in the south we call it gratitude.

 

[MKWood]

This is getting absolutely stupid. It seems like many of you on here only feel like opinions that agree with twra or important. That's ok though, not everybody has the ability to think for themselves. Let's think about this for a second, the diagram that was posted in the twra thread is not in the book. Also, that diagram that is not in the book is way out of date. While I believe that we all understand the concept behind the law, the argument is whether or not it is fair for the twra to change a law right before the season starts. They put out a book for each season with updated regulations. Hunters are required to follow the book, not this website. The book says nothing about these broadheads being illegal. Since the twra is not able to give a clear answer (probably the reason they locked this thread on their forum) I see no reason why one should abide by a law that isn't set in stone. The twra carries the responsibility of making and enforcing regulations on wildlife and hunting. If they have not looked into an issue, and clearly made a law about it before the book comes out for that season they should not be allowed to enforce it. Mechanical broadheads have been around for at least 10 years and there are still no diagrams or regulations explaining their legality. Keep up with the technology Tdub, that is your job. If all the sudden muzzies were deemed illegal for this upcoming season maybe a lot more of you would understand. I have complete respect for the twra and what they do. I abide by their laws and support most the decisions they make. However, I'm not afraid to voice my opinion and in this case that is that the agency dropped the ball on this issue. Don't worry about it this year, and clarify next year. And as for calling us all poachers that decide to argue against this decision, that's just ignorance. I doubt anyone that bought these "illegal" broadheads because they wanted a barbed design. I'm a 2 blade rage shooter, so yes I am legal. However, if they said 2 blades were illegal right now, (meaning it wasn't in the book) I wouldn't change anything. IMO, it wouldn't take much investigation for twra to be able to put a list of ILLEGAL broadheads in the book next year. Hope those of you reading this with a thick skull have opened up your eyes a little and see the reality that the twra doesn't always make the best decisions. Respect what they do, but ain't none of us perfect. Good luck to all this upcoming bow season with whatever broadhead you use.

 

[MKWood]

Bigorangemd, we are all so proud of you for thanking the twra every time they check you. And if you didn't tell the world, how would we ever know. You must be the perfect example of a perfect citizen. I'm sure you always tip your server a whopping 10% and throw a dollar in the plate every Sunday... get over yourself man. A true southerner is humble.

 

[East10buck]

This is getting absolutely stupid. It seems like many of you on here only feel like opinions that agree with twra or important. That's ok though, not everybody has the ability to think for themselves. Let's think about this for a second, the diagram that was posted in the twra thread is not in the book. Also, that diagram that is not in the book is way out of date. While I believe that we all understand the concept behind the law, the argument is whether or not it is fair for the twra to change a law right before the season starts. They put out a book for each season with updated regulations. Hunters are required to follow the book, not this website. The book says nothing about these broadheads being illegal. Since the twra is not able to give a clear answer (probably the reason they locked this thread on their forum) I see no reason why one should abide by a law that isn't set in stone. The twra carries the responsibility of making and enforcing regulations on wildlife and hunting. If they have not looked into an issue, and clearly made a law about it before the book comes out for that season they should not be allowed to enforce it. Mechanical broadheads have been around for at least 10 years and there are still no diagrams or regulations explaining their legality. Keep up with the technology Tdub, that is your job. If all the sudden muzzies were deemed illegal for this upcoming season maybe a lot more of you would understand. I have complete respect for the twra and what they do. I abide by their laws and support most the decisions they make. However, I'm not afraid to voice my opinion and in this case that is that the agency dropped the ball on this issue. Don't worry about it this year, and clarify next year. And as for calling us all poachers that decide to argue against this decision, that's just ignorance. I doubt anyone that bought these "illegal" broadheads because they wanted a barbed design. I'm a 2 blade rage shooter, so yes I am legal. However, if they said 2 blades were illegal right now, (meaning it wasn't in the book) I wouldn't change anything. IMO, it wouldn't take much investigation for twra to be able to put a list of ILLEGAL broadheads in the book next year. Hope those of you reading this with a thick skull have opened up your eyes a little and see the reality that the twra doesn't always make the best decisions. Respect what they do, but ain't none of us perfect. Good luck to all this upcoming bow season with whatever broadhead you use.

I love it, you just said everything that was on my mind.

 

[Otterman]

Bigorangemd, we are all so proud of you for thanking the twra every time they check you. And if you didn't tell the world, how would we ever know. You must be the perfect example of a perfect citizen. I'm sure you always tip your server a whopping 10% and throw a dollar in the plate every Sunday... get over yourself man. A true southerner is humble.

A true southerner respects authority Plus I think it was made crystal clear that 3 blade rage can't be used. Pretty sure the thread was locked because they didn't want to argue a dead point with people that can't deal with the rules!

 

[MKWood]

Yes a true southerner respects authority. I completely agree. Nothing I have said has been meant as disrespectful towards the twra. I can give my personal advice without it being disrespectful. As for the forum being closed due to the issue being resolved, I have to respectfully disagree. They're reason for closing the forum we will never know, but I must reiterate my point about the law not being in the book. It is the law, not is what is said on this site. The twra has done great things for deer hunting in TN, but I believe they are stepping over their bounderies a little here. I would gladly have this conversation with an officer in person and I'm sure he would not feel disrespected. Sadly, I do not have that opportunity at the moment.

 

[MKWood]

I'm pretty sure there's not even an illustration in there now regarding this topic. That's the essence of my problem on this subject. The law is not black and white, and it should be. Laws are not opinions, they are laws. A judge can't sentence you to anything based on his opinion, it must be based on the law. Personal opinions making and enforcing laws is called communism.

Hypothetical situation: John has been hunting with Rage 3 blade broadheads for the past 2 years. He has seen excellent results in blood trails and found deer. He has also never been questioned about his broadhead. From what he understands from the book, he doesn't question their legality. Opening morning this season he kills a mature doe, checks her in, and an officer sees his rage 3 broadheads and writes him a ticket. As far as John knew, his broadheads were legal. However, a debate on a website has deemed them illegal. He has never heard of this website and had no way of knowing that his broadheads were illegal. Still, he has to pay an expensive ticket.

Now if anybody can explain to me how this is somehow fair use of our judicial system I will gladly shut up. And please, do so without acting like it's a job interview for the twra.

 

[scn]

Here's the way it works, and I don't have to worry about a job interview for TWRA:

The regulation requiring a barb less broadhead has been in the Manner and Means Proclamation for the past 20+ years. A synopsis of this document appears in the TWRA Hunting Guide. The Hunting Guide IS NOT a legal document and there is NO legal requirement for TWRA to even print one. It is done as an educational tool for their hunting public. The Proclamations have been posted at the county court houses as required by law and TWRA has the documentation to back that up. If the officer checking John does not think the broadhead he is using meets the barb less criteria as set forth in the regulations, he/she may issue a citation for the violation. The bow and arrows might be held for court as evidence.

Ignorance or not understanding a law is not a legal defense in Tennessee. If John doesn't agree with the officer's interpretation of the law, John will have a court date in General Sessions Court to plead his case. The officer will present his/her evidence and facts, and John may do the same. Then, the General Sessions Judge will decide whether or not John is guilty or not guilty of the offense. And, yes, it is the judge's OPINION on the facts and evidence of the case. If he/she finds John guilty, then he/she will set a sentence for the offense. If John doesn't agree with the verdict, he may be able to appeal it on up the judicial system.

That is the way our legal system works, and is about as far from communism as you can get.

If you will do a little searching, you will find that a large portion of all law (and not just TWRA regulations)is in fact not black and white. It involves governmental interpretations. It is IMPOSSIBLE to have every nook and cranny in law spelled out where it is totally black and white. Fortunately, our Constitution has checks and balances that set forth a judicial system where an educated, un-biased authority makes the final ruling as based on evidence presented.

That, right or wrong, is the way the judicial system is set up.

It is up to us as hunters to ask questions for clarification if we don't understand a regulation. I would suggest recording the name of anyone who gives an answer that works for the government. That way, if you are cited by an officer who doesn't agree with what you have been told, then you will have a person to supenae to give testimony you may be able to use in your defense.

I'm sorry if you don't like or agree with the system. Life would be much easier for all concerned if everything was completely black or white. Unfortunately, that is not reality. As I have posted in the past, when I am on here I am not on the TWRA clock. I do it to try to help educate fellow hunters so they can go out there and enjoy themselves and not get cross-wise with a regulation. I must admit there are days I really question whether it is worth the headache to even fool with it.

 

[MKWood]

Thanks SCN, finally having an answer from an educated source is relieving. I understand that not all laws are black and white but I do feel like this one very easily could be. This law could very easily be updated to incorporate the newer technology. Being that mechanical broad heads have become so much of the market over the past decade or so, it is time to specify laws towards them. The explanations we have (in the book) are sufficient in supplying information about fixed broad heads but are not for mechanical... IMO.

However, Rage 3's have been out for a few years and from what I can understand, would have been illegal all along. If twra did not see a need to enforce this in the past (I understand that no one had even brought it up), why start enforcing it now, a week before the season starts? Why not just let it go for another year, and set it in stone next year? I'm sure this is more of a question for the head of twra, but any information on helping me find an answer to this would be appreciated.

Thanks again for your response. Information from an officer instead of a wannabe is always appreciated.

 

[MKWood]

"A true Southerner respects authority"

I'm not sure what South you guys grew up in, but the Whiskey Rebellion, Moonshining, Nascar, the Civil War and millions of Scotch/Irish immigrants who learned all about authority from the English, beg to differ. A true Southerner is a rebel.

That being said, I agree that lack of available information on mechanical broad heads could present a real problem. A hunter issued a citation who actually showed up to court with a lawyer would likely have the citation thrown out in less than 10 minutes. Of course, the ticket is probably cheaper than a lawyer and, hopefully, this rule will be addressed in the 2011 TWRA book. If that's the case, then I'd like to think that our dialogue here will have served it purpose.

haha, we respect authority that respects us. But i'm pretty sure the whole world knows that we will stand up for our beliefs and rights.

 

[scn]

As I have stated more than once, all TWRA was doing was answering a question that was asked of us. It is no indication of a witch hunt for illegal broadheads. Had the question been asked several years ago, it would have been answered at that time.

But, since the question has been asked and answered, if I were a hunter I don't think I would be comfortable using a broadhead that TWRA says doesn't meet the criteria of the regulations. But, as posted earlier, that is what courts are for if a citation is issued.

The regulation will be looked at before next year's season setting process. However, the barb less criteria will be in effect for the 2010-11 season.