QDM Club Penalties

[Highland]

The property we are hunting has practiced QDMA for over 20 years. The membership turn over is low, we may go five years without a new member. Our main goal is not to harvest any bucks under the age of 3 1/2. This property is very unique in the fact that some 2 1/2 are in the 115 - 125 class. We are hunting in S.E. TN, and are harvesting some incredible deer for the area, and really any area. Over the last two years three 140 + have been harvested. Every year one or two 2 1/2 bucks are harvested, and in most cases, are truly tough calls in a hunting environment in the woods and a decsision is limited to 1- 5 seconds to shoot or not. However, there are a few members who seem to struggle each year with identifying 2 1/2 year olds. They are harvesting some good looking bucks, but are 2 1/2 by jaw bone aging. We as a club are trying to discourage this by talking about the deer and the potiential they have with these members, but so far have not been successful. We are not to the point of asking them to leave the club, but what kind of (punishment is not the word I am looking for, maybe penalty is better) penalty or consequences should we as a club try to envoke to better help ensure more of our 2 1/2 year olds are advancing to the older age class?

 

[BSK]

If the harvest of top-end 2 1/2 year-olds is only 1 or 2 per year, I don't see a problem. Depending on the size of the property, I really don't think those minimal harvests are doing much harm.

 

[ClubHead]

One buck limit.Make it count.

 

[muddyboots]

If they shoot one that is not legal by the rules then there buck hunting is done for the year. I bet that would stop it.

 

[Winchester]

If its the same people year after year, its easy to fix! If not, either get everybody a better education, or set a penalty in place.

 

[Chaneylake]

if it happens at chaney lake, the person will loose his chance for the big buck award!

oh! the big buck award is $1400.00!!!!!!!!

 

[AlabamaSwamper]

In most of Tennessee, a 115" deer is a good deer. Be hard to turn one of them down. There are exception areas. I'd just be happy to have a killable population of those in most of TN.

 

[ShotgunSP]

I agree with what BSK says... But you could also do an "earn a buck" system. If the first buck is younger than your target age, that member must kill x number of does to earn another chance at a buck.

 

[PickettSFHunter]

A couple of 2.5 yr olds will not hurt you one bit.

 

[Chaneylake]

regardless of how hard you try to teach people what to kill, you will never be 100% successful. there are too many variables that a hunter has to deal with. some hunters pick up on this rather quick, others will never be able to properly judge a shooter. i have seen hunters that kill the first 8 point that they see, bring the buck out and grab the camera. it continues year after year. beauty is always in the eyes of the beholder the same as what some see and do not see as a large mature buck. we try anything that we can think of. we know that we will never have every hunter that can identify a shooter, we keep trying though, and this has helped to keep mistakes to a minimum.

 

[Highland]

I did not mention the size of the property - sorry that would probably be helpful. We are managing around 1,000 acres, but the land owner adjacent to us is managing 8,000 acres, with more stringent requirements.

 

[BSK]

In that siuation, you'll never run out of 3 1/2+ year-old bucks, as long as you don't over-pressure your 1,000 acres and/or you have more of what deer are looking for, especially pockets of good cover.

 

[8 POINTS OR BETTER]

Maybe fine then $50 to $100, and use the money to improve the lease.

 

[Chaneylake]

we tried using all fines to herd improvement and food plots
i do not thing it makes any difference

 

[BigGameGuy]

A couple of 2.5 yr olds will not hurt you one bit.

I wanted to expound on Steven's statement...

It depends on what exactly you are manging for. Should you be managing with traditional QDM goals and simply trying to protect the yearlings, then Steven is correct. A few 2-1/2 year olds on about 1,000 acres won't harm a thing.

However, if you are more into trophy management with the goal of harvesting 4-1/2+ year old deer, then the harvest of 2-1/2 year old deer is more detrimental to your program then harvesting the same number of 1-1/2 year old deer. If that's the case you may do better with a simple limit on the number of bucks that can be harvested to prevent too many middle-aged deer from being removed prematurely.

 

[PickettSFHunter]

BGG, one thing that must be considered also is if those couple of 2.5 yr olds werent shot by a hunter, then how many would die of natural mortality anyway.

 

[BigGameGuy]

Exactly Steven, that's why if you are managinging for mature deer, it's more detrimental to shoot a 2-1/2 year old buck as opposed to a yearling...because that 2-1/2 has already survived to make it to 2-1/2. It gets even more detrimental if you shoot a 3-1/2.

 

[416wbymag]

So, I know how to tell mature from yearling but is there that big a difference between 2.5 and 3.5 years. Also, is it that obvious from 100 yards in a scope?

 

[BSK]

To me, identifying 2 1/2 from 3 1/2 year-old bucks is the toughest part of field-judging buck age. Personally, I look at the size of the neck and the depth of the chest.

 

[megalomaniac]

As others have said, I wouldn't sweat losing one or two 2 1/2 yr olds overall per year. However, in this case, it sounds like it's only one or two guys killing all the young deer. In that case, I'd go to a $500 or $1000 fine. That'll make people think twice about pulling the trigger. Or just give them one more warning, and kick them out if they shoot another 2 1/2.

My cousin killed a 2 1/2 yr old on our farm this year. 17" inside spread, scored 115". It didn't bother me a bit because he hasn't killed a buck on the farm in 3 years, and this was only his third buck to kill in 6 years. He knew he made a mistake, but I know that honest mistakes do happen on occasion. I would have felt different if he killed a couple 2 1/2 yr old bucks every year on the farm, though.

 

[Highland]

Excellent responses from everybody. This census proves there is no simple ansewer to the question. Everything that has been debated on this forum, we as a club have discussed time and time again. Removing people from the lease is most likely not an option.

The best solution we have come up with, is to implement the BSK system of trail camereas this year. We are going to monitor our deer herd through camereas and see if we can identify some of these top notch 2 1/2 year old bucks that we as a club want to see make it to at least the next age class. If the club can view these bucks before the arrows are knocked and the bullets loaded, it may improve judgement. Not to mention the fact that if we get some photo's of 140's plus, it may deter some from wanting a 115 inch deer.

Thanks for the responses.

 

[BSK]

NOTHING helps hunters pass up "decent" bucks like having proof much better bucks exist (trail-cam pictures of top-end bucks). I've seen it happen time and again.

 

[chicken litter]

I agree with Winchester, its probably the same problem members year after year, and yes it may be time to set an example and eliminate the problem. I have been a member of several hunting clubs in pass and I look at it like this, if this club has a 3 1/2 yr. old, 125 class rule and the other members are trying very hard to comply and are passing on these smaller bucks just to have those problem members cuttem down. This will only lead to problems with moral among the compling members. These problem hunters need to get serious and educate themselves or go! Trophy Hunting is not about kill numbers its about harvesting quality mature animals and it sounds like this club just has basic rules.

 

[chicken litter]

Yes Highland, this trail cam idea sounds like a good plan, we do this some on our lease and it helps educate us on our properties herd. We actually give the deer in our trail cam pictures names so everyone can identify shooters and non shooters. Again good idea.

 

[hawghead]

WE HAVE RULES THAT ARE PRETTY BASIC.THE BUCK HAS TO BE AT LEAST EIGHT POINTS OR BETTER,AND THE SPREAD HAS TO BE WELL OUTSIDE HIS EARS.WE DON'T TRY TO AGE DEER IN THE WOODS,RATHER WE HAVE THOSE GUIDLINES TO GO BY.WE HAVE ONLY HAD TO PENALIZE ONE MEMBER(WHICH WAS ME)FOR SHOOTING A BUCK WITHOUT TAKING A GOOD LOOK AT HIM FIRST.YES WE HAVE HAD TO PASS ON SOME NICE DEER,BUT WE HAVE INSURED A GOOD POPULATION OF MATURE ANIMALS.
OH YES,I SHOT AN EIGHT POINT THAT LOOKED GOOD ENOUGH FROM THE SIDE,BUT WAS NOT WIDE ENOUGH TO PASS FOR A SHOOTER.I MADE THE WRONG DECISION.I LOST MY HUNTING PRIVILEGES FOR THREE WEEKS.

 

[Highland]

WOW! Chicken Litter - remind me not to get on your bad side. I hope you don't make a mistake in the hunting woods with that kind of policy. Our club is made up of friends, and yours sounds like it is a military training facility.

That is a little too much for me, it is still deer hunting, which is suppose to be about fun and good friends. We are wanting to curtail the harvesting of 2 1/2 year old bucks, not put the shooter on trial.

But thanks for sharing your opinion.

 

[Mountain Buck]

Highland,
What are your club rules on legal deer?

 

[Brad Martin]

I think the key is getting those club members to believe that there are 140+ deer walking around, (trail-cams) AND having members that want to kill only deer of that size. I can't really blame those guys in the club for shooting a 110-115 8pt, if this is their biggest deer they have ever seen, or even their second or third. Now, if they have eight of them on the wall that are bigger, then it might be a problem.

I think that one of the problems that clubs run into is trying to convince members not to shoot the biggest deer they have ever seen. I have passed several deer on our club, knowing that if half of the club members saw it, they would shoot it. If I shoot it, he is definitely not going to be any bigger next year. Keeping the same club members each year and as they kill more and more bucks, or see more hunting and through trailcams, everyone will increase their standards.

 

[Mike Belt]

Basically, the first step in a QDM program buckwise is to protect all yearlings. Generally the next step is to protect most 2.5 year olds. The distinction between 2.5 year olds and 3.5 year olds is hard to make under hunting conditions especially on your top end 2.5 year olds. I don't really see how you can totally eliminate the top 2.5 year olds from harvest. I might add in a minimum antler score and brackett the penalties per score range up to and including forfeiture of filling remaining buck tags if the buck is too small. Even this won't eliminate all 2.5 year olds taken but it should help slow it down to acceptable levels.

I say this and I belong to a club that has a size restriction of 120" minimum. We've had a 40+% increase in our 120"+ class bucks taken this year over last but at the same time a 100% increase in those bucks taken under that minimum. The really sad part is that half of the unders ranged from 96"-108". Even with our restrictions and penalties hunters shot these bucks. I can see a mistake on certain bucks closer to the minimum but bucks the size of 96" aren't even close. When rules are in place and hunters still take bucks of this caliber irregardless of the penalties it may simply be time for those hunters to look for another place to hunt.

 

[BSK]

Great post Mike, and that's why it's so important to join/form a club with hunters of like mind. I realize that is extremely difficult, but if you can pull it off you've got something special.

Some hunters have no problem holding out for what they really want--a large-antlered buck--even if that means going "buckless" for several years in a row. Other hunters will take the first "decent" buck they see simply to keep from going buckless for the year. If you want a successful "big buck" club, you have to find those hunters that can hold off on the lesser bucks.

I'll be the first to admit I hate going buckless. I do want to kill a large-antlered buck, but I have real problems passing up that first 90-110 class 2 1/2 year-old buck I see. It is a constant mental battle...