Do you have a link? I haven't seen it. I have heard several people that work for twra complain about it.
Public crowd
- Thread starter Urban_Hunter
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simpzenith
Member
No, my copy is at home.
simpzenith
Member
TWRA doesn't make any money from the hard cards. This is an optional purchase provided by Brandt for generating revenue (private company). It cost money to produce the hard cards so giving them out for free wouldn't be wise of them.
TheLBLman
Well-Known Member
Like you, I have no problem with non-resident hunters, and am myself a non-resident hunter at times in other states.
What I have a problem with is TWRA over-promoting non-resident license sales, as well as ONLY keeping our season opening date so early, greatly harming the turkey population, because of those non-resident license sales.
TWRA is supposed to be protecting the resource.
When it comes to our turkeys, they have been doing more harm than good.
And these promotions are not just limited to "public" lands.
I've been on a large deer-turkey hunting lease in TN for many years.
Non-resident turkey hunters have consistently killed around half the turkeys killed over all those years on this private property hunting lease (even though they have represented only about 10% of the members).
While many talk about many the non-resident turkey hunters being "googans",
I've found just the opposite on most private lands as well as many public lands.
MOST the non-resident turkey hunters I've met have been very proficient turkey killers.
On average, these non-resident turkey hunters are much more accomplished than our average TN turkey hunter.
Many those in this sub-set of hunters limit out in another State (such as Florida or Alabama) BEFORE the TN turkey season opens. They then come to TN, limit out on turkeys within a week of hunting TN, then move on to their home state or some other State (with a later opening date), often killing a dozen or so long-beards EVERY year.
I'm friends with some of these guys, and do not begrudge them like I may sound.
My problem is with the TWRA mis-managing the resource (when it comes to turkeys).
Our season opens too early.
And the main reason it continues to open so early is to attract more non-resident turkey hunters.
I understand what your saying, but working for a different license vendor I understand more the contract side. "Hard Card" funds are most likely part of the contract that the money for those is used as payment the vendor. Without that then the normal license sales would have a higher "convenience fee" to cover the cost.
That current fee is what the vendor bills the state for as payment for the new system. It's not something g the TWRA keeps.
As I stated in a different thread. It's a double edge sword. More NR license money = more money for wildlife. Less license sales then less for wildlife but possible less crowded woods.
You can't have the desire for the TWRA to do more for public lands and wildlife while at the same time saying we also want you to sell far less license
Just my 2 cent. I don't really have a dog in this as I don't hunt public land
I hate opening day! 3rd year in a row some yahoo has screwed me up. Today, I was first at the gate, 2.5 hrs before daylight. Got on a gobbling bird on the roost and closed within 100 yards. Yahoo comes from behind me squawking on a box call and blows the turkey out. Then, sits down 30 yards behind me. Walk back to the truck and 2 people are parked behind me. And no, there is not enough room there for 2 people, much less 3.
Thats terrible, 30 yards ? I wouldve followed him all day and made sure no bird was killed
Twra paid them with public funds? Thats bs right there. We shouldnt have to actively recruit hunters
Looks like that is not the case although it has been widely reported.
bloodtrailing
Well-Known Member
Not when you exploit the resource that belongs to all residents for financial gain.
bloodtrailing
Well-Known Member
I feel better already. Don't worry the huge increase in harvest will be good.
simpzenith
Member
Thanks. As it clearly states in this email, TWRA did not pay THP, the license vendor did. I believe most of the confusion comes from people assuming that the "vendor" is part of TWRA.
But it doesn't "belong" to residents or non residents for that matter.
Simply put we have a resource that for some reason is disappearing in certain areas of the state. I'd take a gander and say it's multiple reasons from predators, nest raiders, lack of suitable habitat in some areas, bad weather, early season openers and yes some non resident hunters but I would say the non resident side effect is probably the least of the problem cause we all can only hunt for a short period of time. Now loss of habitat, predators, nest raiders and weather doesn't stop killing hens, poults, or dominate field toms after the season ends or in the middle of summer or through out the fall or winter. I would like to see if anything a limited NR quota, later opener, and 1 bird for NR turkey hunters. Focus more on establishing turkeys in certain areas and see WHY they are disappearing outside of season. If Twra can drop that kind of coin on Taj Mahal duck blinds that are for hunting MIGRATORY birds then why can't they drop more coin for birds that STAY in the state of Tennessee.
TheLBLman
Well-Known Member
Are you saying our wild turkeys belong to the TWRA or to the government?
I've always understood Tennessee's free-roaming wildlife are a "public" resource,
for which TWRA has been empowered to first & foremost "do no harm" in "managing" for the People of the State of Tennessee.
Do not the People collectively "own" the wildlife much like the people collectively "own" our "public" anything?
Many the non-resident turkey hunters I know can limit out in a VERY SHORT "period of time", typically like the 1st 9 days (or less) of "our" season.
But I do agree, in that the problem is more our season opening at least a week too early, more than it's the non-resident hunters. It just all adds up, with each negative factor somewhat synergizing the negative effects of others.
Open the season a week later, then there will be fewer non-resident hunters, while the greater benefit remains increasing nesting success, while reducing the effectiveness of illegal baiting by mostly resident hunters (simply by opening our season a week later).
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bloodtrailing
Well-Known Member
https://www.tn.gov/twra/about-the-twra.html
Does not saw financial gain as their mission. People of TN is how REN wants me to word residents.
Does not saw financial gain as their mission. People of TN is how REN wants me to word residents.
What I'm saying is the term "own". No one including the TWRA owns them. Yes they are In Charge of managing them but that's like saying I own the birds in my yard
That I agree with. I wish it was a week later.
The confusion comes as to why a hard card vendor would want to pay THP 10k to promote TN public land to residents and nonresidents for turkey hunting? So Brandt corporation was just sitting around one day and said " let's give 10k to THP to promote turkey hunting". TWRA had nothing to do with it? So the vendor struck out on their own with a plan to promote license sales and turkey hunting? I am confused! Lol ,
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Am I understanding this correctly then?
The contractor makes more money the more licenses are sold in Tennessee. So the contractor pays THP to tell all their fanboys to come. The fanboys buy licenses and the contractor makes money, hopefully enough to cover the check to THP and then some.
Is that it?
The contractor makes more money the more licenses are sold in Tennessee. So the contractor pays THP to tell all their fanboys to come. The fanboys buy licenses and the contractor makes money, hopefully enough to cover the check to THP and then some.
Is that it?
Sorta. They have to get approval from the agency to do it but yes. They make more and the TWRA makes more.
Ideally that more is put back into the resource, however that may or may not be happening IDK.
TheLBLman
Well-Known Member
If you think opening the season a week later wouldn't make much difference, here's some things to help show that difference:
1) Take a picture of any south-facing wood-line (or fence-row, or simply a field).
Do it again a week from today.
2) Walk thru some blackberry bushes and/or green-briar patches today.
Do it again a week from today.
3) Note how many insects you see today.
Note the increase a week from today (in the same places).
Now, here's how this only one week later season opening enhances nesting success and bird survival from both human & non-human hunters:
A) Less obvious, but old Toms have one more week to breed hens before their world is greatly disturbed, including many of these old Toms being killed BEFORE they breed all the hens. With the season opening too early, many hens may not get bred soon enough.
B) When we human hunters suddenly appear all over the turkey's feeding, breeding, roosting, and nesting areas in large numbers, we disrupt & displace those turkey's activities, often causing them to run or fly from one area to another.
With less "cover" due to spring green-up just beginning, these birds are more easily seen & more easily caught by a variety of non-human predators. As more weeds, briars, and other cover quickly grow during the 1st few days of April, this happens to a lesser degree with each passing day. Want to emphasize that disrupting & displacing reduces daily breeding & daily food consumption (adversely effecting bird health & breeding success). It also causes the birds to burn more calories while they are consuming fewer due to the disruption.
The more too many hunters suddenly appearing on too small an acreage (like nearly all your public WMAs in TN), the more detrimental the effect of this disruption & displacement.
C) Right before and in the early stages of spring green-up, turkeys typically have a lot less food sources. Insects are just starting to come out a bit from winter, and a lot of things turkeys love to eat are just starting to grow fast. Because of this "seasonal" low point in food resources, wild turkeys are particularly vulnerable to being "baited" with any type feed grain (such as corn or wheat). Yet a week or two later, illegal baiters can't have such easy success, since the birds have such a much greater abundance of food sources.
As an aside from all the above, opening our season a week later reduces the influx of non-resident hunters coming to TN because of how much earlier our season opens than theirs. If our season opened only a week later, many non-residents would not be coming here during the 1st week of our season. The main reason most come here is because our season opens earlier than theirs.
Yes, everything effects everything.
Also, just because many these particular non-residents might not show up here if our turkey season opened a week later, does not mean all of them wouldn't be buying a TN non-resident license. Many still would, but their TN turkey hunting would just begin at least a week later, when less damaging to the resource. Keep in mind TN's turkey season also remains open later than many states from where these non-resident come. Last but not least, many these same non-residents are buying their non-resident licenses in TN as much or more for fishing and deer hunting as they are for turkey hunting. Their purchases do no end just because we might open our turkey season a week later.
1) Take a picture of any south-facing wood-line (or fence-row, or simply a field).
Do it again a week from today.
2) Walk thru some blackberry bushes and/or green-briar patches today.
Do it again a week from today.
3) Note how many insects you see today.
Note the increase a week from today (in the same places).
Now, here's how this only one week later season opening enhances nesting success and bird survival from both human & non-human hunters:
A) Less obvious, but old Toms have one more week to breed hens before their world is greatly disturbed, including many of these old Toms being killed BEFORE they breed all the hens. With the season opening too early, many hens may not get bred soon enough.
B) When we human hunters suddenly appear all over the turkey's feeding, breeding, roosting, and nesting areas in large numbers, we disrupt & displace those turkey's activities, often causing them to run or fly from one area to another.
With less "cover" due to spring green-up just beginning, these birds are more easily seen & more easily caught by a variety of non-human predators. As more weeds, briars, and other cover quickly grow during the 1st few days of April, this happens to a lesser degree with each passing day. Want to emphasize that disrupting & displacing reduces daily breeding & daily food consumption (adversely effecting bird health & breeding success). It also causes the birds to burn more calories while they are consuming fewer due to the disruption.
The more too many hunters suddenly appearing on too small an acreage (like nearly all your public WMAs in TN), the more detrimental the effect of this disruption & displacement.
C) Right before and in the early stages of spring green-up, turkeys typically have a lot less food sources. Insects are just starting to come out a bit from winter, and a lot of things turkeys love to eat are just starting to grow fast. Because of this "seasonal" low point in food resources, wild turkeys are particularly vulnerable to being "baited" with any type feed grain (such as corn or wheat). Yet a week or two later, illegal baiters can't have such easy success, since the birds have such a much greater abundance of food sources.
As an aside from all the above, opening our season a week later reduces the influx of non-resident hunters coming to TN because of how much earlier our season opens than theirs. If our season opened only a week later, many non-residents would not be coming here during the 1st week of our season. The main reason most come here is because our season opens earlier than theirs.
Yes, everything effects everything.
Also, just because many these particular non-residents might not show up here if our turkey season opened a week later, does not mean all of them wouldn't be buying a TN non-resident license. Many still would, but their TN turkey hunting would just begin at least a week later, when less damaging to the resource. Keep in mind TN's turkey season also remains open later than many states from where these non-resident come. Last but not least, many these same non-residents are buying their non-resident licenses in TN as much or more for fishing and deer hunting as they are for turkey hunting. Their purchases do no end just because we might open our turkey season a week later.
bloodtrailing
Well-Known Member
No, TWRA got the vendor to pay to promote hunting, by saying they could make a little more coin, that way they (TWRA) can say "we didn't use conservation dollars but look, we now have more NR/R conservation dollars".
In my past life I worked a a couple land grant universities, I know how this mess works when public dollars are at stake.
Amazing. Simply amazing.
Hahah ok chief. I know what you meant and you know what I meant so we can move along. You have your opinion and I have mine
Rageman
Active Member
Just out of curiosity simpzenith are you YouTuber Shane Simpson just curious brotha
It's just my opinion (which don't mean much) but I think people are putting way to much emphasis on a single YouTube group causing such an issue state wide. ALL states use influencers these days to market, and all states market to residents and Non residents to increase license sales.
I work in that industry with multiple states and see the behind the scenes more then some especially from a marketing stand point (I'm not in marketing but am a part of those meetings)
Did THP increase NR hunters? Probably but to what extent is it from them or the fact that TN season opens at a perfect point for people to come here at a great time before their season opens or a few weeks after their season opens? Prob a combination of that plus Covid impact.
And again increase license sales is suppose to HELP residents, if the TWRA is wasting that money then that's a different story.
I work in that industry with multiple states and see the behind the scenes more then some especially from a marketing stand point (I'm not in marketing but am a part of those meetings)
Did THP increase NR hunters? Probably but to what extent is it from them or the fact that TN season opens at a perfect point for people to come here at a great time before their season opens or a few weeks after their season opens? Prob a combination of that plus Covid impact.
And again increase license sales is suppose to HELP residents, if the TWRA is wasting that money then that's a different story.
simpzenith
Member
Yes sir.
