PA buck restriction history with Gary Alt on Huntr podcast

[Antler Daddy]

I cant beleive it has been over 20 years. I can remember reading all about it and those hunters were upset!

 

[Antler Daddy]

BSK....this might interest you when you have some downtime to kill.

 

[lafn96]

Very interesting listen; enjoyed it

 

[BSK]

BSK....this might interest you when you have some downtime to kill.

I'll give it a listen. Talked to Gary many times. Good dude.

I remember when that all went down. There were some truly pissed off hunters.

 

[CliffordN]

I was there when it started. And folks were not at all happy with the changes he was making. But, you were very lucky to see a buck with much of anything on it's head, and the woods had a browse line all the way through over most of the state. He was considered a "bear guy" by many, and they had no respect for the program he laid out. All these years later, PA has some awesome deer hunting, and a whole generation of deer hunters there have completely changed attitudes. Good Job Dr. Alt!

 

[CliffordN]

I know this is very long. But it really is a great listen... Well worth you time and attention...

 

[backyardtndeer]

Still a lot of people in PA pissed off about Alts antler restrictions. They protect some really poor genetics and get some young deer with great potential killed. Sure don't need that crap here.

 

[BSK]

Still a lot of people in PA pissed off about Alts antler restrictions. They protect some really poor genetics and get some young deer with great potential killed. Sure don't need that crap here.

A different time and a different world back then. PA had a million hunters chasing a million deer. At the time, TN had around 200,000 hunters chasing 800,000 deer. Big difference in competition between hunters. I was a big proponent of antler restrictions at the time, but I've changed my mind about that. I never in a million years thought hunters would embrace the voluntary passing of young bucks the way they have. Now, antler restrictions would be detrimental. But at the time, PA was willing to try anything to get a little age on bucks (and to reduce the total buck kill).

 

[Antler Daddy]

Still a lot of people in PA pissed off about Alts antler restrictions. They protect some really poor genetics and get some young deer with great potential killed. Sure don't need that crap here.

you didnt listen to the podcast...did you?

 

[backyardtndeer]

Now, antler restrictions would be detrimental.

Are there still antler restrictions there. I have an uncle that lives and hunts in PA, I will have to ask him.

you didnt listen to the podcast...did you?

Actually watched most of it. I also read plenty about Alt's plan years ago, and followed threads on another forum where hunters in PA who were seeing exactly what I posted. A couple co moderators on that forum who were from PA despised Alt's plan for the reason I posted.

 

[Antler Daddy]

Are there still antler restrictions there. I have an uncle that lives and hunts in PA, I will have to ask him.

Actually watched most of it. I also read plenty about Alt's plan years ago, and followed threads on another forum where hunters in PA who were seeing exactly what I posted. A couple co moderators on that forum who were from PA despised Alt's plan for the reason I posted.

I only asked because it was basically addressed. High grading and protecting bad genetics were not even considered because most of the yearling bucks were being killed anyway. They also discussed that does provide DNA. Protecting the Y (forked) bucks forced hunters to pass bucks and resulted in better hunter satisfaction as well.

 

[backyardtndeer]

I only asked because it was basically addressed. High grading and protecting bad genetics were not even considered because most of the yearling bucks were being killed anyway. They also discussed that does provide DNA. Protecting the Y bucks forced hunters to pass bucks and resulted in better hunter satisfaction as well.

I missed part of it, and definitely didn't hear that part. And yes, does are responsible for passing along genetics.

Biggest gripe I heard was that there were mature bucks that were not legal to take because they didn't meet the antler restrictions.

My uncle up there is a very serious hunter, he consistently kills big deer in PA, Maryland, and Virginia. Last time he and my aunt visited we talked some about antler restrictions and he wasn't a fan, even though he has no trouble killing mature bucks every year.

Guess just like here with talk of changing limits, can't please everyone.

 

[CliffordN]

I missed part of it, and definitely didn't hear that part. And yes, does are responsible for passing along genetics.

Biggest gripe I heard was that there were mature bucks that were not legal to take because they didn't meet the antler restrictions.

My uncle up there is a very serious hunter, he consistently kills big deer in PA, Maryland, and Virginia. Last time he and my aunt visited we talked some about antler restrictions and he wasn't a fan, even though he has no trouble killing mature bucks every year.

Guess just like here with talk of changing limits, can't please everyone.

I lived in PA when this was all happening. And I saw, first hand, the damaged forests. This was not, primarily, about improving deer hunting. It was an emergency effort to save habitat and also avoid a huge population crash. Hunters there were content to see large numbers of deer, with few bucks. ( I had seen the same thing in the 70s along the MS river, when no one would shoot does) And, I remember folks that were proud to shoot spikes with one inch antlers, saying "I got my buck!" I had moved up there from LA and had a hard time believing that anyone could be that happy to shoot a deer like that, but soon realized there were very few racked bucks to be had. It was unreal to walk through the woods and see that browse line just about head high, everywhere I went. I tried to discuss the positive side of what he was proposing with guys at work, and a few times I was sure they were about to jump me, because I was an outsider who was threatening their traditional deer camp experience. But, the few of them that traveled down to MS with me at the end of each year, and saw a different side of deer hunting, with nice bucks even on public land, came back with a different attitude. Antler restrictions were not popular, and killing does was considered unsportsmanlike for some time. I lived in Chester county, the Special Regulations area, and had access to some great private property, owned by folks who wanted the deer herd drastically reduced, because they were eating up thousands of dollars of landscaping as fast as it was put in their yards. We could get lots of doe tags, and I was killing lots of deer, but quietly... Interesting times, for sure... When I moved away, years later, the tide was slowly turning. But it was really decades before the real change took place.

 

[mike243]

The only reason it's brought up here is to try to influence deer hunters here, we don't have this problem in most of Tn but some folks can't understand Tn wont never be a big buck destination, The only way to get bigger deer in Tn is to go to a draw statewide, cut 1/2 the hunting out each year for bucks. The head warden at Catoosa proved to me that a lot of folks will ground ck for enough points, he had 3 in his truck late 1 day that had been shot and left. same thing would happen all over Tn if they tried it,

 

[backyardtndeer]

I lived in PA when this was all happening. And I saw, first hand, the damaged forests. This was not, primarily, about improving deer hunting. It was an emergency effort to save habitat and also avoid a huge population crash. Hunters there were content to see large numbers of deer, with few bucks. ( I had seen the same thing in the 70s along the MS river, when no one would shoot does) And, I remember folks that were proud to shoot spikes with one inch antlers, saying "I got my buck!" I had moved up there from LA and had a hard time believing that anyone could be that happy to shoot a deer like that, but soon realized there were very few racked bucks to be had. It was unreal to walk through the woods and see that browse line just about head high, everywhere I went. I tried to discuss the positive side of what he was proposing with guys at work, and a few times I was sure they were about to jump me, because I was an outsider who was threatening their traditional deer camp experience. But, the few of them that traveled down to MS with me at the end of each year, and saw a different side of deer hunting, with nice bucks even on public land, came back with a different attitude. Antler restrictions were not popular, and killing does was considered unsportsmanlike for some time. I lived in Chester county, the Special Regulations area, and had access to some great private property, owned by folks who wanted the deer herd drastically reduced, because they were eating up thousands of dollars of landscaping as fast as it was put in their yards. We could get lots of doe tags, and I was killing lots of deer, but quietly... Interesting times, for sure... When I moved away, years later, the tide was slowly turning. But it was really decades before the real change took place.

I get all that, but they still have antler restrictions that protect older bucks with inferior genetics. And fwiw, my uncle that I mentioned is in his 70's and lived in PA all his life, he still won't kill a doe.

 

[BSK]

Antler restrictions GREATLY exacerbate high-grading problems. Now we can never end high-grading. Almost all hunters high-grade. Given a choice between a forkhorn 3 1/2 year-old and a 10-point 3 1/2 year-old, most hunters will shoot the 10-point 3 1/2 year-old. That is high-grading, and it absolutely does reduce the average size of bucks at maturity.

 

[CliffordN]

I get all that, but they still have antler restrictions that protect older bucks with inferior genetics. And fwiw, my uncle that I mentioned is in his 70's and lived in PA all his life, he still won't kill a doe.

I agree that almost all antler restrictions can be counter productive, leading to high grading younger age classes, or protecting older bucks with inferior antlers. But, thinking that culling can help is mostly a fantasy as well. Teaching folks to slow down and take time to attempt aging deer on the hoof would be a much better plan. Shoot first, then look at what you got, is more the norm in most places... I really don't care that much about what anyone else shoots, unless it is on a place that I am hunting. When it gets to be work and not fun, I lose interest... I told the guys that hunted with me that certain deer which I have pics of were off limits, that specific deer were shooters, and that anything with less than 8 points and under 3.5 probably needed to walk, and that we should only shoot a very small number of does this year. And we had a good time, even though we didn't shoot much. In these open hardwoods, we were able to watch bucks for long enough to decide shooter, or not. No running deer/quick decision stuff, which is when mistakes get made. I prefer shoot what makes you happy, and make sure your group is on the same page as a plan...

 

[BSK]

I told the guys that hunted with me that certain deer which I have pics of were off limits, that specific deer were shooters, and that anything with less than 8 points and under 3.5 probably needed to walk

Just out of curiosity, why "no bucks less than 8 points?"

 

[CliffordN]

Just out of curiosity, why "no bucks less than 8 points?"

I had four 4.5 or older deer on camera that were all nice 8 points which I thought we should try to kill. And a pile of younger deer, including three that were six points that I want to see go another year or two. I hadn't seen any young deer that had 8 points. Neither of the two guys who hunted with me seemed to be able to age a deer, when I showed them the pics. And one was very eager to kill one of the sixes at first. So, basically the 8 point restriction was to get him to wait for the older deer, by default. Once they held off and realized they would see a few bucks, they decided they wanted to kill the better deer anyway. So, problem solved.

 

[Antler Daddy]

Most of the places we hunt have a point or antler width restriction. It just forces others less picky to leave some seed bucks for us to hunt next year.

It has also cost us some bucks that we should or would have shot if we knew were legal.