No decoys in AL first 10 days

[Boll Weevil]

Instant gratification, or sustainability of the resource, which do the masses prefer?

Gratification. Maybe not instant but given the choice between killing a bird today and fostering a sustainable resource, the masses prefer punching present-day tags.

These are some of the same folk that will fondly recall the good'ol days some years from now and wonder where all the turkeys went.

 

[megalomaniac]

Hate to say it... but I'm afraid Andy and Boll Weevil are right. Especially since it would require ALL turkey hunters to be on board at once.

The vast majority of all turkeys nationwide are on private lands... how to incentivize private landowners and hunters who hunt private lands to manage for better habitat and remove predators? That's what it will take.

Public land birds will likely continue to decline until all public lands require a lottery draw with reduced tag allocation unless there is adequate spillover from adjacent managed private lands.

 

[TheLBLman]

... how to incentivize private landowners and hunters who hunt private lands to manage for better habitat and remove predators?

Speaking of predators, in your opinion, what kills the most turkeys (after incubation, not on the nest)?

I'm particularly talking about poults from right after incubation until they're a few months old.

As to habitat, I can show you some pretty vast areas (thousands of contiguous acres, many square miles) which has progressively become more diverse, and appears to be better overall turkey habitat now than years ago. This is even more true regarding nesting habitat which is often considered the lowest hole in the bucket.

Yet, these areas of better turkey habitat still have fewer turkeys now than decades ago.

Are we missing something major beyond just habitat and predation?

 

[Boll Weevil]

Are we missing something major beyond just habitat and predation?

Yes. More turkey "hunters."

Seriously, while hunter numbers for other critters may be on the decline, those chasing turkeys are not.

 

[younggun308]

Why have bonus birds to begin with? Hunting a lightly pressured flock should be draw enough.

It's not about whether the hunt is attractive. It's about the fact that a "bonus bird" doesn't negatively impact the turkey population on WMAs with open hunts, because the bird can only be killed on one WMA where harvest is severely restricted to begin with.

You could logically argue that making a quota bird count against the drawn hunter's season limit saves a bird somewhere else. If the drawn hunt is later in the season, the hunter will strive to save their tag for that hunt; or if they draw early in the season, that's one less bird they can kill elsewhere.

But realistically, when you consider the number of quota hunters drawn who actually hunt (much less kill anything) we're talking about less than a drop in the bucket of overall harvest.

So if the logic of "bonus bucks" from deer season holds, since you're only killing an animal from a specific property with limited harvest, there is no reason to not also do "bonus birds" in the spring.

 

[MickThompson]

It's not about whether the hunt is attractive. It's about the fact that a "bonus bird" doesn't negatively impact the turkey population on WMAs with open hunts, because the bird can only be killed on one WMA where harvest is severely restricted to begin with.

You could logically argue that making a quota bird count against the drawn hunter's season limit saves a bird somewhere else. If the drawn hunt is later in the season, the hunter will strive to save their tag for that hunt; or if they draw early in the season, that's one less bird they can kill elsewhere.

But realistically, when you consider the number of quota hunters drawn who actually hunt (much less kill anything) we're talking about less than a drop in the bucket of overall harvest.

So if the logic of "bonus bucks" from deer season holds, since you're only killing an animal from a specific property with limited harvest, there is no reason to not also do "bonus birds" in the spring.

Turkeys aren't deer and shouldn't be managed as such

 

[poorhunter]

The research in TN is going to prove 4 things...

1... the majority of hens don't start setting until late April/ early May

2... the majority of nests are destroyed by predators, and many hens don't initiate nests at all

3... hunters are removing a larger percentage of gobblers than the biologists expected.

4...more adult birds are lost to predators than previously thought.

I'm all about doing a study, it will prove those 4 points above. But I'm sure the naysayers will still refuse to believe the truth.. Hopefully some grad students can get their names in some journals.

But anyone who lives in the turkey woods and loves them can come up with those same 4 conclusions without wasting a bunch of time and money.

The real question is what do we do about it? Are we as hunters and managers willing to do the hard things to ensure we have turkeys still around in huntable populations for our grandkids to enjoy?

100% agree, particularly the part about it j or t being rocket science to see those 4 points are true.

We as hunters are unfortunately a product of our culture and will refuse to self-regulate ourselves (as a whole) without the law to do it. Our culture is oriented to the law instead of what's right, and refuse to see the difference between the two.

 

[TheLBLman]

It's not about whether the hunt is attractive. It's about the fact that a "bonus bird" doesn't negatively impact the turkey population on WMAs with open hunts, because the bird can only be killed on one WMA where harvest is severely restricted to begin with.

Whether or not the hunt is "attractive" has everything to do with whether hunters apply or go.

A limit on a particular quota hunt, as well as whether it's a "bonus", are significant factors in determining the limit on subsequent hunts in that area, as are the statewide limits in the surrounding area, sometimes even the adjoining states.

Whether or not a bird is a "bonus" or not, that is a significant factor on hunter participation for a particular quota hunt, as well as the subsequent non-quota hunts. The date of the quota hunt(s) may be just as significant as whether bonus or not.

When the turkey population is in decline, part of the off-set usually becomes to plan on less turkey killing.
Regulation wise, this can in part be accomplished by some combination of less days to hunt, quota vs. non-quota hunt days, and lower bag limits, which may or not mean no "bonus" birds. Or, if you want the same or more days to hunt, say goodbye to bonus birds and hello to lower bag limits.

What some hunters may be missing is that the statewide turkey season may be too much of a good thing, with too many turkeys being killed, many too soon for good nesting success.

Everything effects everything; even more the case with turkeys.
Long-term sustainable turkey management may be as much an art as a science,
as too many factors are beyond human control, and/or simply unknown to the science.

 

[deerfever]

The thing I guess that got me with the bonus bird deal is TWRA showed that 1 percent I believe it was of hunters killed a limit and a bonus bird? These highly skilled bandits that traveled around to fill tags were not very good at it.What I was told by a commissioner that voted for it was the turkeys on those WMA left the area to breed and lay eggs so he felt they should just count toward state wide, something to that affect. I can look back at my email to get it exact . My point was that for instance oak ridge has not even been hunted for two years , how would a bonus bird from that WMA which has two hunts a year affect our overall population for the state? In the end I got a feeling that Megalomaniac will be right as the guy knows turkeys but I guess in my mind the question I have about the date change would be this, for years turkeys were hunted at this same time of year bred to the point of population explosion, and boss gobblers killed. Now we believe that they do not have enough time to breed , a satellite gobbler will not take over when the boss is killed and that is the reason some counties and states have had a decrease in turkey population? I am anxious to see if anything new is found when it's all over but as a turkey hunter that loves it and is absolutely obsessed , I will accept whatever they tell me needs to be done in the end to make sure my son and others can hunt them in the future. If some of you can explain my question above please do and I mean that sincerely as that is the one thing that has baffled me with some of the Chamberlain stuff.

 

[Buzzard Breath]

Are we missing something major beyond just habitat and predation?

We, as humans, have been pretty efficient at wiping critters off the face of the earth or pushing them to the brink of extinction. That could be through overhunting, chemicals, development, etc.... I wouldn't be the least surprised if it wasn't something we're doing.

I was turkey hunting Lawrence County when they disappeared. One year it was normal as usual, the next, they were just gone. When I say gone, I mean every last one of them; no gobblers, no jakes, no hens. It's like the Aliens beamed them up (my wife has been watching X-files while I tie flies in the evenings).

 

[poorhunter]

We, as humans, have been pretty efficient at wiping critters off the face of the earth or pushing them to the brink of extinction. That could be through overhunting, chemicals, development, etc.... I wouldn't be the least surprised if it wasn't something we're doing.

I was turkey hunting Lawrence County when they disappeared. One year it was normal as usual, the next, they were just gone. When I say gone, I mean every last one of them; no gobblers, no jakes, no hens. It's like the Aliens beamed them up (my wife has been watching X-files while I tie flies in the evenings).

Just like what happened to me, except not that bad. Over 5 years now and I can't tell for sure if they've recovered or not…still less than 20% of what it was like.

 

[younggun308]

Turkeys aren't deer and shouldn't be managed as such

Well done taking the opportunity to speak in vague platitudes (to thunderous applause, it seems)…but you didn't remotely address what I said.

Of course I am not implying deer and Turkey management are the same—but the logic undergirding bonus tags has nothing to do with the particularities of managing either.

WMA-specific harvest quotas (whatever the species) by definition manage hunter harvest on that specific property. However many tags you give out, is based on the assumed success rate and population estimates for that particular property. Whether the bird harvested on a quota hunt is a bonus bird or not doesn't affect how much hunter harvest impacts population there. If you think birds on quota WMAs are being over-harvested (which I don't think I've heard anyone argue), then the answer is to lower the quota there, not to make them count toward the season bag limit.

And with as few quota hunts/tags as there are in this state, I hardly think enough hunters find a quota hunt less attractive because there are no more "bonus" birds to make any difference on hunting pressure from season to season.

 

[MickThompson]

Well done taking the opportunity to speak in vague platitudes (to thunderous applause, it seems)…but you didn't remotely address what I said.

Of course I am not implying deer and Turkey management are the same—but the logic undergirding bonus tags has nothing to do with the particularities of managing either.

WMA-specific harvest quotas (whatever the species) by definition manage hunter harvest on that specific property. However many tags you give out, is based on the assumed success rate and population estimates for that particular property. Whether the bird harvested on a quota hunt is a bonus bird or not doesn't affect how much hunter harvest impacts population there. If you think birds on quota WMAs are being over-harvested (which I don't think I've heard anyone argue), then the answer is to lower the quota there, not to make them count toward the season bag limit.

And with as few quota hunts/tags as there are in this state, I hardly think enough hunters find a quota hunt less attractive because there are no more "bonus" birds to make any difference on hunting pressure from season to season.

There are many reasons to have a quota hunt besides reaching or setting a maximum sustained harvest- quality of hunt is a big one for turkeys. I'd be surprised if there isn't a quota wma in the state besides possibly Yuchi that draw a hunter quota many times over the legal birds contained on the property. Not saying the acres/hunter number is right, but it is what it is. Anyone that knows anything about turkeys will also tell you that it's difficult if not impossible to count turkeys and subsequently develop the perfect harvest goal. Regulations have to almost always be conservative and to some degree reactive.

I would argue that bonus birds incentivize filling tags with birds that would otherwise go unkilled (jakes in particular) or risking wounding loss on marginal shots because the tag is "lost" if it's not used in 3 days. I'd argue that bonus everything should be done away with for these reasons.

 

[younggun308]

I would argue that bonus birds incentivize filling tags with birds that would otherwise go unkilled (jakes in particular) or risking wounding loss on marginal shots because the tag is "lost" if it's not used in 3 days. I'd argue that bonus everything should be done away with for these reasons.

This makes more sense. I disagree on the jakes, but can see how irresponsible shots could be taken.
That said, I would counter that these problems you mention are not due to the "bonus" tag, but the fact it's a quota hunt.

 

[Setterman]

Are we missing something major beyond just habitat and predation?

yes, there are more hunters and the advent of decoys, blinds, and long range guns allows more hunters to kill more birds. So many birds are killed by people who wouldn't have a prayer due to new age tactics

 

[poorhunter]

yes, there are more hunters and the advent of decoys, blinds, and long range guns allows more hunters to kill more birds. So many birds are killed by people who wouldn't have a prayer due to new age tactics

I'm with Setterman on this. I would add that the new hunter by-in-large have no interest in the resource, just the kill.

 

[megalomaniac]

yes, there are more hunters and the advent of decoys, blinds, and long range guns allows more hunters to kill more birds. So many birds are killed by people who wouldn't have a prayer due to new age tactics

This is part of it...

But the other part is there are a LOT of folks like myself who have just become more proficient.

Back in the 90s, I probably killed one out of 15 toms I struck. Now I average killing around 1 out of 3. That's what 3 decades of practice will do for you. I'm sure you are the same way.

THEN, multiply turkey hunter numbers 10 fold (that's just a guess... would be pretty easy to get actual numbers from FOIA based on NR turkey license sales from mid 90s until now). Gobblers used to get OLD back in the 90s. He'll, I wouldn't shoot one unless I looked his spurs over first and they were 1 1/4in. Killing a bird with 1.25in spurs now is a rarity for me. (Yes, I know spur length does not directly correlate with age... but it certainly does trend)

So, in short... many more hunters who are more efficient, with more efficient tactics and weapons, more efficient predators equals fewer turkeys to hunt.

 

[megalomaniac]

Speaking of predators, in your opinion, what kills the most turkeys (after incubation, not on the nest)?

I'm particularly talking about poults from right after incubation until they're a few months old.

As to habitat, I can show you some pretty vast areas (thousands of contiguous acres, many square miles) which has progressively become more diverse, and appears to be better overall turkey habitat now than years ago. This is even more true regarding nesting habitat which is often considered the lowest hole in the bucket.

Yet, these areas of better turkey habitat still have fewer turkeys now than decades ago.

Are we missing something major beyond just habitat and predation?

Number one mortality for poults is lack of availability of suitable habitat after the hatch. Poults HAVE to have insects to survive. They won't survive eating plants or even scratch grain some folks throw out thinking it will help. No bugs close by, no poults.

As far as predators, avian predators are number one hands down for poults. Watch a momma hen... she is always casting her head to the side to look up. Watch the poults... a plane or a buzzard flies over and they run as fast as they can for some type of cover. Habitat with room to roam at ground level while providing overhead cover is absolutely necessary for them to make it.

 

[megalomaniac]

100% agree, particularly the part about it j or t being rocket science to see those 4 points are true.

We as hunters are unfortunately a product of our culture and will refuse to self-regulate ourselves (as a whole) without the law to do it. Our culture is oriented to the law instead of what's right, and refuse to see the difference between the two.

It is possible to self regulate.... but a handful of individuals doing so only delays the inevitable. For example, when TN went from 2 bird to 4 bird limit, I knew my farms could not handle that amount of killing long term. As such, I limited individual harvest to 2 birds. Did that for years, but neighbors just mopped up all those I passed. Gave up and upped it to 3 birds per hunter, and now state has lowered to 3 birds. I've never killed 4 birds in a year in TN. But it didn't matter.

 

[Rockhound]

I don't think TWRA can win in this situation with anyone. They will never please all involved with whatever they decide. I thought some of the counties mentioned Giles, Lincoln, Wayne ,have been put in what's called the MAV unit and have a two week later starting date, 2 bird limit and a study to see why turkeys declined in those areas and the study will see if the whole state will benefit from these changes? I believe others areas of the state also have a shorter season and lower limit. That seems pro active to me in specific targeted areas of need to see if the parameters in place make a difference. Giles is probably in your top 5 to 10 out of 95 counties in the state in harvest and that was with a shorter season and lower limits, could it be on an upswing( I hope so)? I say that not to make light of anything that has happened in those counties as I know at one point they were better than now but some areas of the state are actually on the rise with turkey population, that is what is so strange to me. So for every call TWRA gets wanting to go with a two week later season and a 2 bird limit they will get other calls mad about the limit going from 4 to 3. I have no problem with whatever they set the limit and season dates ,as long as they base it off of research, study and data. TN is leading the way with research on turkey right now with the study they are doing. TWRA cut the limit to 3 for the whole state, cut the killing of hens , took away bonus birds and made season dates later with lower limits for certain counties in need to study the effects ,but have been slow to react? Go to Alabama hunter website and read the gentleman on here from Alabama is not alone at all. You will not find any complaints about no decoys, they were illegal forever in Alabama. What you will find are a ton of guys ready to explode over moving season dates without proper evidence that it will benefit the turkey population. TN could lead the way and provide evidence one way or the other with this study for other states to make decisions that are justified, show the evidence in other words. TN could set limits on how many non residents can come the first two weeks on public land, simply make them apply and be drawn for a public land permit . Other states have done that due to all the covid hunters to help with the issue . I have not heard anything but positive things about our turkey coordinator , so I will just wait on the results and know TWRA has already put things in place for the areas in the MAV unit that could make a huge difference for all of us in the future when the study ends . I believe the study is about to conclude( this year, next)? Glad to see the THP boys on board! They have not done anything at all to promote or increase pressure on public hunting lands , LOL. I cannot believe our state agency paid these guys , makes the cost of my lifetime license hurt even more! Again it's a tough balancing act for TWRA trying to please a whole state that have different views on what needs to be done. I am sure I am in the minority here with this but just a thought of what the state agency is dealing with and mention the the things that have been done by TWRA.

They are being proactive, 15 years after the population flopped....