Mule Deer Demise Research

[AT Hiker]

That article was well written, hopefully it will make a difference in some of the policy makers out West.

Colorado is doing pretty well though, they even have major oil and gas exploration. One thing they dont have is an over abundance of predators, no wolf or grizzly either. Those WY deer cannot catch a break; between habitat destruction, predators, bad winters and droughts they seem to keep tacking one step forward and two back.

IMO, WY needs to implement a quota on all units until they can get things squared away. A limited entry quota and antler restriction may not do much if anything but at least it is a start. One thing you will notice about WY is that the private ranches hold the majority of the biggest and mature deer, granted food is typically better on these lands but one thing they all have in common is low pressure and restricted harvest.

Migrating deer out of the Wyoming Range are different in that sense, but they are not the only mule deer suffering.

Its crazy that we are living in the "hay day" of whitetail hunting but the glory days of mule deer are 50+ years past.

 

[plinker22]

 

[Diehard Hunter]

Its crazy that we are living in the "hay day" of whitetail hunting but the glory days of mule deer are 50+ years past.

And that may actually be the crux of the problem. How many mule deer die every year from meningeal worms? As white tail ranges expand and more mule deer come into contact with them it only stands to reason that more will die from the parasite.

 

[AT Hiker]

Its crazy that we are living in the "hay day" of whitetail hunting but the glory days of mule deer are 50+ years past.

And that may actually be the crux of the problem. How many mule deer die every year from meningeal worms? As white tail ranges expand and more mule deer come into contact with them it only stands to reason that more will die from the parasite.

Actually Montana research seems to think there is a link between the wolf and the worm.

http://fwp.mt.gov/news/newsReleases/fis ... _0256.html

I can see where some mule deer and whitetail come into contact, but from what I have seen the places where WT numbers and muley numbers are high are on mostly private ranches where both populations are doing well and the mule deer migrate very little if any.

Im not sure many, if any, mule deer that migrate out of the Wyoming Mountain Range come into contact with whitetail. They differently dont hang out together in the high country, but wolfs are up there....

 

[HuntFish714]

I enjoyed the article thank you! I can only speak for what ive seen in Arizona and Idaho which is where im from. As far as Arizona goes there is not much migrating that happens and the wolves that are there are the actual wolves that used to be there (mexican grey wolves) so I dont have a problem with them. As far as big picture drought is the key factor in heard deaths for deer and elk in that southern region. IDAHO ON THE OTHER HAND would be a perfect example ofthis articles queation. Look at Boise for example, pretty much the largest wintering range for mule deer and elk in idaho. As the city and close towns from caldwell to moutain home expand the animal are forced to either adapt with people or keep held up in the iimmediate foot hills outside of town. There is a huge number of deer and elk related car accidents every winter that has become a big problem for the heards and people. A couple years back the animals were pushed out onto a frozen reservoir just out side of town, the ice broke and hundreds of elk and deer froze/drowned. The rescue and cleanup efforts was huge and could have been avoided. When spring came and the ice melted there was carcasses washing up for atleast a month and REAKED! The foothills is a good area but your taking huge wintering heards and cutting there winter grounds down by atleast have so starvation and the spread of diseases a very real thing and a serious issue. And dont get me started on wolves, im worn out after very long debates and protesting against the damn tree huggers. The introduced wolves (newly introduced NOT REINTRODUCED) are a huge problem and NO GOOD FOR ANYONE OR ANYTHING!!! They kill for fun literally and have taken a HUGE toll on elk and deer populations. Thats all ill say about it for now

 

[AT Hiker]

I enjoyed the article thank you! I can only speak for what ive seen in Arizona and Idaho which is where im from. As far as Arizona goes there is not much migrating that happens and the wolves that are there are the actual wolves that used to be there (mexican grey wolves) so I dont have a problem with them. As far as big picture drought is the key factor in heard deaths for deer and elk in that southern region. IDAHO ON THE OTHER HAND would be a perfect example ofthis articles queation. Look at Boise for example, pretty much the largest wintering range for mule deer and elk in idaho. As the city and close towns from caldwell to moutain home expand the animal are forced to either adapt with people or keep held up in the iimmediate foot hills outside of town. There is a huge number of deer and elk related car accidents every winter that has become a big problem for the heards and people. A couple years back the animals were pushed out onto a frozen reservoir just out side of town, the ice broke and hundreds of elk and deer froze/drowned. The rescue and cleanup efforts was huge and could have been avoided. When spring came and the ice melted there was carcasses washing up for atleast a month and REAKED! The foothills is a good area but your taking huge wintering heards and cutting there winter grounds down by atleast have so starvation and the spread of diseases a very real thing and a serious issue. And dont get me started on wolves, im worn out after very long debates and protesting against the ***** tree huggers. The introduced wolves (newly introduced NOT REINTRODUCED) are a huge problem and NO GOOD FOR ANYONE OR ANYTHING!!! They kill for fun literally and have taken a HUGE toll on elk and deer populations. Thats all ill say about it for now

That Frank Church wilderness is a prime example of the invasive grey wolf destruction it can have. I know a videographer that spent 10 days in there 2 years ago filming and they only heard one bugle and never really got into elk.

Those Mexican wolfs are unique too, a lot of NM ranchers hate them and kill them. Granted I cant prove they do but spend a few minutes talking to locals out there and u will soon here all the stories of the Shoot, Shovel and Shut Up going on. Fact that with they are native to the area and I dont think they affect the herds all to much.

AZ is the king of Elk, man would I love to draw a tag there!


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[HuntFish714]

Ya same in Gospel Hump wilderness area, I used to guide up there right when the wolves were starting to boom. Bugling is almost non existent due to tge wolves. The heards get broken up once they figured out moving in big herds draw more attention to predators despite more defense efforts. And yes the old gut shot wolf was very popular until they made hunting them legal. Nothing can justify or make up for the amount of stupidity by the wolf and tree huggers.
My dad still live in arizona and has a cabin in elk central. Its awesome! If I can ever afford to even put in for a draw ill be happy, with fees increasing yearly even resident prices are outrageous! If you ever put in let me know ill hook you up! My dad likes to donate his time and help people fill there tags just like I do.

 

[AT Hiker]

Thanks, right now Im focused on drawing a late season couse deer rifle tag.

We vacation in Yellowstone often and the wolf is a hot topic. I know not many mule deer migrate out of Yellowstone but that used to be a elk haven! Now the herd is cut in half, I suspect the WY range is the haven for mule deer but something is causing their demise. I think the wolf is one of the problems for sure but I also think something else is to blame. I would hate to see migrating mule deer a thing of the past.



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[HuntFish714]

Ya im kinda curious about that to. Wy definitely has some good wintering range in the southern section along I80. Before I joined the army I was a truck driver and every winter id see thousands and thousands of mainly elk on Elk Mountain while driving threw the mountains. First time I saw it it blew my mind, looked like a ton of ants on an ant hill. Ive never seen that many animals in an area at one time before. In idaho the area n. Of 84 between boise and mt home is area 39 and they have a november archery deer hunt during the rut. Its awesome probably my favorite time and place to hunt, between foothills and rim rock its pretty cool and can see heards of 1-200 deer. I havent seen any wolves come down that far but im sure they do. As a piece of the puzzle in every state many people blame the fish and game biologists and such, for idaho I think there just tryin different things until they can get it right and hopefully its not to late. One example was a couple years ago they panicked due to the fires burning a small portion of wintering ground, they prodicted more vehicle accidents and starvation deaths due to the deer trying to find more food in late winter. Area ranchers farmers came up with a proposal to sell and donate hay and crops to make them survive the winter. Fish and games answer "no" well hold a two day doe hunt with odds pretty much 100% success for I believe it was 1000 tags (may have been 500). And we wonder what were doin wrong...

 

[HuntFish714]

Docpoco- what were some conclusions you came up with?

 

[AT Hiker]

I did my senior thesis in genetics on declining mule deer populations. Its a fascinating subject.

Thats cool.


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[BigGameGuy]

This will not be popular, especially on this thread,but the reason the fish and game biologists recommend what they do is because they are looking after the "wildlife", as a whole. This includes all native species (fauna and flora) within an entire ecosystem. The giant elk herds of years gone by were as despicable to them as the wolves are currently viewed by some people today. Favoring one species over another is simply farming and not wildlife management. The reintroduction of wolves into the Yellowstone ecosystem has had more benefits to biodiversity then anything they ever could have imagined.

Aldo Leopold, the father of wildlife management spoke of this very issue. The foresight he had and was absolutely amazing.

"Thinking like a Mountain
We reached the old wolf in time to watch a fierce green fire dying in her eyes. I realized then, and have known ever since, that there was something new to me in those eyes - something known only to her and to the mountain. I was young then, and full of trigger-itch; I thought that because fewer wolves meant more deer, that no wolves would mean hunters' paradise. But after seeing the green fire die, I sensed that neither the wolf nor the mountain agreed with such a view.…I now suspect that just as a deer herd lives in mortal fear of its wolves, so does a mountain live in mortal fear of its deer. And perhaps with better cause, for while a buck pulled down by wolves can be replaced in two or three years, a range pulled down by too many deer may fail of replacement in as many decades. So also with cows. The cowman who cleans his range of wolves does not realize that he is taking over the wolf's job of trimming the herd to fit the range. He has not learned to think like a mountain. Hence we have dustbowls, and rivers washing the future into the sea."
― Aldo Leopold, A Sand County Almanac with Other Essays on Conservation from Round River

 

[BigGameGuy]

Actually Montana research seems to think there is a link between the wolf and the worm.

http://fwp.mt.gov/news/newsReleases/fis ... _0256.html

I can see where some mule deer and whitetail come into contact, but from what I have seen the places where WT numbers and muley numbers are high are on mostly private ranches where both populations are doing well and the mule deer migrate very little if any.

Im not sure many, if any, mule deer that migrate out of the Wyoming Mountain Range come into contact with whitetail. They differently dont hang out together in the high country, but wolfs are up there....

That article actually doesn't mention wolves at all. It does say that the artificial concentration of deer in areas where feed is available through livestock operations or people intentionally feeding them makes them more susceptible to the parasite.

One example was a couple years ago they panicked due to the fires burning a small portion of wintering ground, they prodicted more vehicle accidents and starvation deaths due to the deer trying to find more food in late winter. Area ranchers farmers came up with a proposal to sell and donate hay and crops to make them survive the winter. Fish and games answer "no" well hold a two day doe hunt with odds pretty much 100% success for I believe it was 1000 tags (may have been 500). And we wonder what were doin wrong...

The Montana research discussed above tells you reason why the answer was no. They were merely trying to protect the cervid populations.

 

[AT Hiker]

This will not be popular, especially on this thread

I fully understand but do you really think this perfect Yellowstone ecosystem that the Canadian Grey helped balance matters all that much? After all, that giant volcanoe is way past its due date!

What about the humans that lost their livelihood? Not fault to their own, they only made do with the circumstances and now they are SOL. Should we repopulate buffalo back across the great plains, should livestock numbers be reduced to give room for elk to return to their native habitats versus the high mountain country they now inhabit?

The article I posted was not the article I read, I will need to find it again. But it essentially talks about the parasite in wolf feces is now being found in deer.


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[BigGameGuy]

It's a tough question that may never be answered to everyone's liking but my personal opinion is that "wild lands" should be restored as much as possible to their natural system. Should we restore grizzlies in the east? Or bison throughout the Midwest? Probably not since these areas are no longer considered wild lands. However, if the area is declared a national park or national forest and is large enough to support extirpated species, then why not? I would love to visit a place where I can see what life was like before we (humans) started imposing our will upon it.

 

[AllOutdoors]

Thanks for wanting to do something!

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[HuntFish714]

BigGameGuy- ok I will agree on the National Park side that id be cool to see a restored natural area to all Native animals for that area. The problem that were having in that region though is that the wolves that they "reintroduced" arent the original wolf species that was there originally. I have no problem (along with others) with them bringing back the original wolves, the ones that were like glorified coyotes, solitairy hunters etc. Similar to what ive seen in the south west I dont have an issue with since the mexican grey wolf was originally there and doesnt destroy heards. Northwest on the other hand introduced canadian timber wolves which are not native (except possibly very norther parts along the border). They are twice the size, hunt in packs and have generations of killing moose and other large game, so when they see a tasty rocky mountain or Roosevelt wapiti its no challenge and an easy kill. So as far as deer go its a pups training game. They (other than humans) are the only species that kills for no reason, hundreds of sheep slaughtered over night, a small heard of elk/deer erased in a single day, just for "practice, fun, cause there bored?". Also if you havent heard a live canadian timber wolf I would recommend a trip northwest, it really is an experience all in it self. Hear the deathly eary howl you can almost feel the coldness in there hearts and will send chills down you body and make hair stand up every where. Its pretty crazy experience and can quite explain the death feel when hearing one echo threw the trees from a near by mountain. Not tryin to put anyone down or hi jack the thread, just stating what weve been fighting the past couple years in courts, congressman, and protesters.

 

[AT Hiker]

It's a tough question that may never be answered to everyone's liking but my personal opinion is that "wild lands" should be restored as much as possible to their natural system. Should we restore grizzlies in the east? Or bison throughout the Midwest? Probably not since these areas are no longer considered wild lands. However, if the area is declared a national park or national forest and is large enough to support extirpated species, then why not? I would love to visit a place where I can see what life was like before we (humans) started imposing our will upon it.

I grew up raising cattle, have a graduate degree in Agriculture science and value the importance of production agri. With that said; for selfish reason I would love to see the vast majority of our lands be returned to wild spaces! I know it will never happen but how awesome would it be,like you said, to see our land like it was before! Substitute venison for beef and become a subsistent society on mother nature, talk about natural selection!!!


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[Blackdog416]

Huntfish714,

With all possible respect. Do you remember the winter of 1992-93 at King Hill in Unit 45? 150% of normal snowfall that started on October 12. It was still snowing and blowing April 12. Thousands of mule deer died. Just before I got here in 1990 my friends who worked thru about 150% normal snow pack in the winter of 1986 told me that they began stacking deer up like cordwood along I-84 in the Jerome-Twin Falls-Burley areas to try to get people to slow down. The herds had built to over carrying capacity of the range and that 1992-93 winter reversed that.

Presently those burns you speak of in that King Hill area have left nothing higher than 6" that isn't cheat grass. If you go there right now the deer and elk are utilizing private agriculture ground. I'm telling you that I dread another 1992-93 like winter under the conditions that we have now. Dread it. "Panicked" well maybe not.

In a perfect world we would have a crystal ball and a Harry Potter wand. Unfortunately we're human.

Again all possible respect.

 

[HuntFish714]

Black dog- no problem, I didnt get to idaho till 99 so I can only speak of what ive seen first hand and have heard from others. From what I saw anyway was good green forage growing almost immediately after the fires swept threw with being mainly natural prairie blend. This does do much for the browsing but as you stated they do and did take advantage of ag land during the times of need and the farmers did there best to help with leaving stand alone corn sugar beats and I believe a lil soy. I honestly dont know the destruction these heards can cause on a farm in the winter if theres no winter wheat or other crops. I know there a nuisance if its before harvest tho. I can definitely see where you are coming from.

 

[BigGameGuy]

The part that related to genetics had to do with hunters harvesting significant percentages of trophy class bucks - theoretically leaving "genetically inferior" bucks to do most of the breeding, as well as decreasing genetic diversity due to localized population declines and more inbreeding.

Alas, the prochecies are fulfilling. In our quest to manage for the "mega-buck", we are creating a species of slickhead bucks. It couldnt get more ironic than that, albeit it's still a few hundred years away, still funny to think about.

 

[weatherby man]

There is nothing but guessing on the worms without empirical data. I was wondering more about preds myself. But such a decline should not be accountable only to them. Probably those damn windmills that are good for nothing but 15% of capacity.

 

[HuntFish714]

My family always had permission to hunt the wind and phesant farm for antelope just north of the east end of mtn home, they havent had any decline on the pronghorn populations but have only seen two deer in there. Not sure how it would effect them as far as health goes but I know theres an awesome deer hunting spot about a mile from there in the desert.

 

[Blackdog416]

H+F 714,

Great deer country isn't it? Antelope numbers are way up on the Camas Prairie so likely more opportunity in the future.

 

[HuntFish714]

Ya I love hunting rim rock and sage flats. Gunna invest in a new spotting scope when I move back :-D