May Fish & Wildlife Commission Meeting

[Southern Sportsman]

The may meeting will be this Thursday and Friday at Discovery Park in Union City, TN. With the season just ending, they will have time for public comment on turkeys and any future changes to rules and regulations on Thursday.

I've been extremely frustrated with the commission over the last few years, but the makeup of the commission is slightly different—hopefully more receptive to widely accepted biological recommendations—and I like the way Roger Shields (current Wild Turkey Program Coordinator) has conducted things. If you have an opinion about what should be done in the management of wild turkeys, there is nothing you can do that will be more impactful than expressing those opinions in person at the meeting. And if you can't come in person, now is the time to start calling and emailing commissioners.

With that in mind, I'm really curious to hear everyone's observations and opinions based on this past season. Please cast your pearls.

 

[Southern Sportsman]

 

[Wrangler95]

Sure would like to see a change in the turkey season of two turkey limit and the season opened a week later than now!

 

[Boll Weevil]

Regarding this year's report the gobbling just gets terribler and terribler on my farm. I called in 6 toms and killed 2 but there's just so many hens to compete with. It's a good problem to have and beats the alternative of no turkeys to hunt at all, but the hens can make for some quiet hunts.

 

[Stlbaseball1]

Will there be any decisions made related to turkey season, bag limits, etc. at this meeting or just a 2021 harvest update? My season was probably on par with the last 3-5. Several good hunts and overall decent results. As a conservationist, I would like to see the limit reduced to 2 and the season reduced by 1 week on the front end and 1 week on the back end for a total of 4 weeks instead of 6. Continue to open the West TN WMAs contiguous to riverbottom (flooded areas) 10-14 days after opener. Re-evaluate in 2024. Just my opinion based on lots of reading/discussions on here last year related to this topic.

 

[BSK]

Just as an aside, for those hunters who feel the TWRA isn't on top of the decreased turkey populations in TN (and across the Southeast for that matter), I had a chance to discuss turkey populations at great length with one high-level TWRA biologist, and I was blown away by the number of studies they are conducting trying to figure out what the real problem is. They are looking at a wide variety of possible causes, including diseases, predation, and hunter over-harvest. I was really quite impressed by the range and professionalism of these studies.

 

[JCDEERMAN]

Just as an aside, for those hunters who feel the TWRA isn't on top of the decreased turkey populations in TN (and across the Southeast for that matter), I had a chance to discuss turkey populations at great length with one high-level TWRA biologist, and I was blown away by the number of studies they are conducting trying to figure out what the real problem is. They are looking at a wide variety of possible causes, including diseases, predation, and hunter over-harvest. I was really quite impressed by the range and professionalism of these studies.

That's very good to hear.

 

[Planking]

They need to open up the predator hunting and trapping like everybody else is doing. That would at least give those of us who would like to put some heat on them during the nesting season the opportunity to do so.

 

[FTP]

The may meeting will be this Thursday and Friday at Discovery Park in Union City, TN. With the season just ending, they will have time for public comment on turkeys and any future changes to rules and regulations on Thursday.

I've been extremely frustrated with the commission over the last few years, but the makeup of the commission is slightly different—hopefully more receptive to widely accepted biological recommendations—and I like the way Roger Shields (current Wild Turkey Program Coordinator) has conducted things. If you have an opinion about what should be done in the management of wild turkeys, there is nothing you can do that will be more impactful than expressing those opinions in person at the meeting. And if you can't come in person, now is the time to start calling and emailing commissioners.

With that in mind, I'm really curious to hear everyone's observations and opinions based on this past season. Please cast your pearls.

Yeah before the swine!!!!

 

[JCDEERMAN]

They need to open up the predator hunting and trapping like everybody else is doing. That would at least give those of us who would like to put some heat on them during the nesting season the opportunity to do so.

 

[Southern Sportsman]

Will there be any decisions made related to turkey season, bag limits, etc. at this meeting or just a 2021 harvest update? My season was probably on par with the last 3-5. Several good hunts and overall decent results. As a conservationist, I would like to see the limit reduced to 2 and the season reduced by 1 week on the front end and 1 week on the back end for a total of 4 weeks instead of 6. Continue to open the West TN WMAs contiguous to riverbottom (flooded areas) 10-14 days after opener. Re-evaluate in 2024. Just my opinion based on lots of reading/discussions on here last year related to this topic.

They will not make any decisions this week, but we are in the second year of the current proclamation rules, governing '20-'21. So by early next year they will vote on a new proclamation establishing rules, regs, dates, etc. for '22-'23. Tomorrow I think they are presenting the current draft of that proclamation. Then they will debate it, solicit public input, revise it, and later vote on it. So this will be the first chance to discuss and debate the proposed regulations for '22-'23.

 

[Stlbaseball1]

Thanks for the above information!

 

[megalomaniac]

Just as an aside, for those hunters who feel the TWRA isn't on top of the decreased turkey populations in TN (and across the Southeast for that matter), I had a chance to discuss turkey populations at great length with one high-level TWRA biologist, and I was blown away by the number of studies they are conducting trying to figure out what the real problem is. They are looking at a wide variety of possible causes, including diseases, predation, and hunter over-harvest. I was really quite impressed by the range and professionalism of these studies.

The problem is it didn't hit the biologists radar until 5 to 10 years after the problem started.

Turkey biologists have been taught to base population estimates on harvest numbers. That may be fine and dandy when harvest techniques were static for decades. But the past 10 years have produced advances making harvest more effective and skewing harvests earlier in the year. Not to mention the number of hunters and hunter effort has dramatically increased in the past decade.

 

[BSK]

The problem is it didn't hit the biologists radar until 5 to 10 years after the problem started.

Turkey biologists have been taught to base population estimates on harvest numbers. That may be fine and dandy when harvest techniques were static for decades. But the past 10 years have produced advances making harvest more effective and skewing harvests earlier in the year. Not to mention the number of hunters and hunter effort has dramatically increased in the past decade.

Mega,

You're assuming overharvest is the problem. Maybe it is and maybe it isn't. I would prefer good research be used to find the real problem before management decisions are made.

 

[megalomaniac]

Mega,

You're assuming overharvest is the problem. Maybe it is and maybe it isn't. I would prefer good research be used to find the real problem before management decisions are made.

Actually, not at all...

My assumption is that population is lower despite an unchanged harvest. We KNOW hens are not reproducing at rates to sustain the population (based on excellent observational numbers of poults observed in Aug brood surveys). The real crux is WHY are hens failing to rear the next generation?

As far as overharvest of males and population dynamics, biologically turkeys could not be any more different than deer. Theoretically, it is possible to remove every single adult male each year after hens have been bred and it would not affect populations one bit. But timing is everything. Overharvest too early may be one of the reasons hens are not hatching poults. Ofc its multifactorial, with increased predator numbers, loss of nesting habitat, etc also probably playing a role.

 

[AT Hiker]

"Tennessee turkeys by the numbers...

People have been proclaiming that Tennessee turkey populations are crashing for the last few decades. The data simply does not show that on a regional scale....."

A recent social media post by a former, highly respected, twra biologist. This post was backed by harvest statistics and nothing else. Point being, Megas comment s based on this line of thinking, IMO.

 

[Southern Sportsman]

Mega,

You're assuming overharvest is the problem. Maybe it is and maybe it isn't. I would prefer good research be used to find the real problem before management decisions are made.

If we KNOW there is a problem with declining numbers due to steadily declining poult production —and we do — would it not be wise to adopt more conservative seasons, limits, and start dates while we try to positively identify "the" problem.

I don't like to idea of studying the problem for another couple YEARS, making no regulation changes, while turkeys continue to disappear.

 

[Wrangler95]

If we KNOW there is a problem with declining numbers due to steadily declining poult production —and we do — would it not be wise to adopt more conservative seasons, limits, and start dates while we try to positively identify "the" problem.

I don't like to idea of studying the problem for another couple YEARS, making no regulation changes, while turkeys continue to disappear.

I agree

 

[catman529]

Just as an aside, for those hunters who feel the TWRA isn't on top of the decreased turkey populations in TN (and across the Southeast for that matter), I had a chance to discuss turkey populations at great length with one high-level TWRA biologist, and I was blown away by the number of studies they are conducting trying to figure out what the real problem is. They are looking at a wide variety of possible causes, including diseases, predation, and hunter over-harvest. I was really quite impressed by the range and professionalism of these studies.

And people are quick to jump to conclusions that state agencies don't care, just cause they aren't seeing immediate action being taken. Can't take action if you don't know what exactly is going on yet. Hope they learn some in the next few years.

 

[BSK]

Actually, not at all...

My assumption is that population is lower despite an unchanged harvest. We KNOW hens are not reproducing at rates to sustain the population (based on excellent observational numbers of poults observed in Aug brood surveys). The real crux is WHY are hens failing to rear the next generation?

As far as overharvest of males and population dynamics, biologically turkeys could not be any more different than deer. Theoretically, it is possible to remove every single adult male each year after hens have been bred and it would not affect populations one bit. But timing is everything. Overharvest too early may be one of the reasons hens are not hatching poults. Ofc its multifactorial, with increased predator numbers, loss of nesting habitat, etc also probably playing a role.

Just my opinion, but I want to know why something is happening before I take remedial action. Not only could taking early remedial action be detrimental, it could make figuring out what is going on far more difficult.

 

[Southern Sportsman]

Just my opinion, but I want to know why something is happening before I take remedial action. Not only could taking early remedial action be detrimental, it could make figuring out what is going on far more difficult.

I suspect that is the scientist in you. I respect you and your opinions a great deal, and waiting until you can positively identify a problem before taking action is certainly a valid approach in many, many circumstances. But there have already been years of research and billions of dollars spent by states across the southeast trying to pin this one down. I'm not optimistic that a sudden epiphany will occur in the next two years to positively identify the problem. I'm also not optimistic that turkey populations in much of West TN will survive a few more years at the current rate.

To be clear, I'm not asking for some extreme, knee-jerk reaction to the problem. I just want Tennessee to take some steps, consistent with explicit recommendations from the Southeast Association of Fish and Wildlife Agencies, the NWTF, and other leading wild turkey biologists. I cant think of even one scenario in which delaying start dates until close to peek breeding/nest initiation or reducing the bag limit could be detrimental to turkeys.

 

[BSK]

I suspect that is the scientist in you. I respect you and your opinions a great deal, and waiting until you can positively identify a problem before taking action is certainly a valid approach in many, many circumstances. But there have already been years of research and billions of dollars spent by states across the southeast trying to pin this one down. I'm not optimistic that a sudden epiphany will occur in the next two years to positively identify the problem. I'm also not optimistic that turkey populations in much of West TN will survive a few more years at the current rate.

To be clear, I'm not asking for some extreme, knee-jerk reaction to the problem. I just want Tennessee to take some steps, consistent with explicit recommendations from the Southeast Association of Fish and Wildlife Agencies, the NWTF, and other leading wild turkey biologists. I cant think of even one scenario in which delaying start dates until close to peek breeding/nest initiation or reducing the bag limit could be detrimental to turkeys.

Wildlife Biology is a SCIENCE. Not to say there isn't also some "art" involved. There certainly is. But "changing the rules" while you're in the midst of trying to understand the problem is truly BAD science.

Can you point me in the direction of peer reviewed research from SAFSA or NWTF that pinpoints the causes of Southeastern turkey declines? I'm seriously asking.

 

[TheLBLman]

I think the same people are still trying to figure out what happened to the Bobwhite quail populations that once thrived all across Tennessee. Wish they would complete that study so we can make some changes to bring back the quail.

In all seriousness, I believe we will find much correlation between declining turkey populations and the near extinction of Tennessee's quail. Hunting had very little to do with quail declining, but then, we never did hunt quail in the Spring while they were nesting either.

 

[TheLBLman]

Just my opinion, but I want to know why something is happening before I take remedial action. Not only could taking early remedial action be detrimental, it could make figuring out what is going on far more difficult.

I cannot disagree with that position, but,
it can sometimes be akin to waiting until you find out what caused a person's house to catch fire, BEFORE you attempt to put out the fire.

To some point, what difference does it make?
Sometimes we need to do something before we lose the opportunity.

Like Southern Sportsman's reply to BSK's thoughts . . . . .

I suspect that is the scientist in you. I respect you and your opinions a great deal . . .

But there have already been years of research . . . . .
I just want Tennessee to take some steps, consistent with explicit recommendations from the Southeast Association of Fish and Wildlife Agencies, the NWTF, and other leading wild turkey biologists. I cant think of even one scenario in which delaying start dates until close to peek breeding/nest initiation or reducing the bag limit could be detrimental to turkeys.

x 2

 

[Andy S.]

But "changing the rules" while you're in the midst of trying to understand the problem is truly BAD science.

To my knowledge, the southern middle TN counties where the 6 year study is ongoing, have not changed, or changed enough to affect the outcome of the study. I believe TFWC granted that consideration to TWRA and UTK.

This is taken from page 2 of this document, referencing the 6 year study (2016-2022) in southern middle TN counties.

"More severe population declines have been observed in other areas of the state, particularly in south-central Tennessee, causing local residents, hunters and managers concern that additional population-level factors are impacting these populations (Buehler et al. 2016). In response, TWRA, the University of Tennessee and the National Wild Turkey Federation (NWTF) partnered on a six-year research project to determine what factors are driving turkey population fluc-tuation in southern middle Tennessee and develop strategies to address issues that are identified. The study, which began in 2016, involves radio-marking and monitoring wild turkeys in five counties, as well as collecting information regarding hunting pressure, disease prevalence and hunter attitudes and opinions (Buehler et al. 2016). The design and scope of this project should allow inference of study results and strategies to a much broader scale."

https://www.tn.gov/content/dam/tn/twra/documents/birds/turkey_management_plan.pdf

 

[TheLBLman]

By the way, it's questionable whether we should trust BSK's thoughts on turkey management, as to him, they are just big feathered rats that eat up his food plots planted for deer

 

[Andy S.]

By the way, it's questionable whether we should trust BSK's thoughts on turkey management, as to him, they are just big feathered rats that eat up his food plots planted for deer

Yes indeed, I remember his comments about them "seed eating feathered rats" back in the day.

 

[Stlbaseball1]

The meeting was live on YouTube today. If you care about turkeys it's worth a watch. Thanks to the guys who took their time to provide quality public comment.

 

[Stlbaseball1]

Also, I would add that it "appears" based on commissioner comments that several of the commissioners believe there is a need for some type of change, but they are unsure of what those changes should be.

 

[Southern Sportsman]

Can you point me in the direction of peer reviewed research from SAFSA or NWTF that pinpoints the causes of Southeastern turkey declines? I'm seriously asking.

To my knowledge, nothing has pinpointed the problem definitively. But both SEAFWA and the NWTF have recommended that season dates be structured to open coinciding with or after peak nesting. A very good article in the Journal of the Southeast Association of Fish and Wildlife Agencies was published in 2018 ("Considerations for Timing of Spring Wild Turkey Hunting Seasons in the Southeastern United States") explaining it. It acknowledges a knowledge gap, but also points out that it is imprudent to ignore the potential impacts of high early male harvest on reproduction.

"Effect of male harvest on turkey production remains a considerable knowledge gap. Yet, it is imprudent to ignore evidence which suggests high, early spring harvest (Exum et al. 1987) or insufficient adult male abundance (Isabelle et al. 2016) may locally suppress turkey productivity. In fact, many authors (Vangilder 1992, Kurzejeski and Vangilder 1992, Healy and Powell 2000) have warned about potential implications of high male turkey mortality on population productivity when it occurs early in the breeding season."

I just feel like Tennessee has ignored common sense for a while now. We know that peak breeding/nesting in TN happens between April 14 and May 1. We currently start hunting around April 1st. About 60% of the annual harvest takes place in the first 2 weeks of the season. So in a declining population, we kill 20,000 males before the hens have bred. That certainly isn't helping hens breed or nest more timely or produce more poults.