Hey Mick T. check this out (covers are crimped)(updated)

[WTM]

i went with a mix of winter oats and austrian winter peas(planted in rows). they are about chest high and in flowering stage ready to crimp.

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look maw, no weeds under the covers amd good moisture retention. soil is still spongy, not compacted.

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here is the tool i made for hand crimping, 2ft 2in piece of 2x4, 2ft piece of 1 1/4" angle iron(i had to improvise as tsc was sold out of angle), drill 2 holes in angle iron and secure with big screws to 2x4, drill 1 hole on each side of 2x4 for the rope. make a loop with some rope about waist high and your done. took all but 15 minutes including welding that i had to do to make my angle iron lol.

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looks pretty good to me. a little rain will stick it and be ready to plant in 10 days or so.

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update:
final result this year, ALMOST no tilling lol. as i explained in earlier threads, this spot at my new house was basically compacted clay and subsoil that the builders used as a dump site. the first year i dug all kinds of crap out of the soil, bricks, rocks, pieces of metal, etc. i pulled enough river rock out to totally landscape the front of my house lol.

ive always planted some type of cover but i usually lightly tilled under about 2 inches. this year i crimped,(albeit i had to run over it about 3 times before all of it stayed down) and weed eated where my rows were going. then i took a garden spade and gently lifted about every 10 inches. i was delighted when the spade sunk in deep with very little effort and i could see the worms in the soil, a good sign. then i took a hoe a furrowed my rows. easy peasy. took maybe an hour and this plot is about 4-5k ft. the oats are awesome and much better that wheat straw mulch although i always mulch tomatoes to prevent splash ups and disease. i also do crop rotation, for example, corn was planted where beans where last year and vise versa. this allows the corn to pick up left behind bean nitrogen as well as the winter pea nitrogen so i shouldnt have to add much fertilizer if any at all although corn is a heavy feeder. the rest of the vegetables were rotated as well as this keeps the soil nutrient balanced and keeps pests at bay.

here is the result:

 

[Jcalder]

Re: Hey Mick T. check this out (covers are crimped)

I'm fairly ignorant but what are you trying to achieve? What's the benefits?


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[WTM]

Re: Hey Mick T. check this out (covers are crimped)

I'm fairly ignorant but what are you trying to achieve? What's the benefits?


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no weeds, moisture retention, oats and peas pulls excess nitrogen out of the soil and puts it back in as it decomposes thus less fertilizer needed. it also keeps the garden from being bare in the winter so it keeps the topsoil from eroding. if i were to mow then till into the ground it would be the same as adding a few tons of rich compost to the soil but since i add a couple of inches of rich compost and lime every other fall i use it as mulch. its also effective for no till gardens which i am slowly converting to after i get the soil structure built. the more you till the more it compacts the soil. im finding i only have to run the tiller 1" or so now to make my rows and in between the rows i leave untilled.

 

[Jcalder]

Re: Hey Mick T. check this out (covers are crimped)

I'm fairly ignorant but what are you trying to achieve? What's the benefits?


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no weeds, moisture retention, oats and peas pulls excess nitrogen out of the soil and puts it back in as it decomposes thus less fertilizer needed. it also keeps the garden from being bare in the winter so it keeps the topsoil from eroding. if i were to mow then till into the ground it would be the same as adding a few tons of rich compost to the soil but since i add a couple of inches of rich compost and lime every other fall i use it as mulch. its also effective for no till gardens which i am slowly converting to after i get the soil structure built. the more you till the more it compacts the soil. im finding i only have to run the tiller 1" or so now to make my rows and in between the rows i leave untilled.

so essentially you're trying to achieve a no till garden and letting your cover crop be the fertilizer (compost) as well holding moisture. Makes sense and probably I should look into a little more. After breaking the stems how long does it take for the cover crops to die so you can plant. You said you used oats and peas but what other vegetation could be used. My garden is kinda in a low spot gets washed in a big rain.


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[WTM]

Re: Hey Mick T. check this out (covers are crimped)

10 days to 2'weeks. yep mine too, its at the bottom of a 150 ft tall hill, but i have had some dozer work to terrace the hill and make drains that carry it to the road on each side.

here is some good info and planting rates:

http://www.sare.org/Learning-Center/Boo ... wledgments

ive used winter wheat and turnip mix, some white clover. this year i was going to use barley and winter peas but oats tolerate more water than barley. mick used crimson clover as did the farmer up the road from me. if you use a pea mix then you will need a nurse crop mixed in like oats or winter wheat. the peas will climb up the stalks. fall planted barley will break up clay soils with their roots as will forage radishes, but you cant plant forage radishes in the same spot as brassicas vegetables like cabbage and broccoli. i had a lot of deer in it this year and did not seem to hurt final yield of oats and peas.

 

[MickThompson]

Re: Hey Mick T. check this out (covers are crimped)

Looking good. Building my crimper will probably be my weekend project.

I'm more of a woodworker than a metal worker so I may use some dense wood for my crimping blades. I think yours should do the trick.




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[Jcalder]

Hey Mick T. check this out (covers are crimped)

Thanks for the info. I don't have a big hill like you but all the water in my yard goes to my garden spot. Personally I want to build my garden up where the water will go around but my garden in on the neighbor. At some point I'm wanting to make an offer and buy that lot but it's not possible at the moment. After this weeks rain I have a trench thru the middle roughly 2 foot wide and however deep my tiller goes. I've tried to cut ditches around but they don't catch all the water.

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[nwsg76]

Re: Hey Mick T. check this out (covers are crimped)

Cover crops management is changing our tn hunting. If the momentum continues at curent pace then tn may find itself having alot more "food plots" on a landscape level. I have counties planting over 30,000 acres each fall. That's a bunch of food available for wildlife. Also if food plot guys catch on....they can save themselves lots of time disking fields and spend more time hunting.

 

[MickThompson]

Re: Hey Mick T. check this out (covers are crimped)

Jcalder, I would consider covers mandatory for a garden patch like that. Good soil is too hard to come by. Keep it where it's supposed to be.


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[Jcalder]

Re: Hey Mick T. check this out (covers are crimped)

Jcalder, I would consider covers mandatory for a garden patch like that. Good soil is too hard to come by. Keep it where it's supposed to be.


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that's my problem. It's washing all the goods away. Having already missed out on the opportunity I may try it next year


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[MickThompson]

Hey Mick T. check this out (covers are crimped)

Wheat and clover are cheap compared to a load of good top soil. I haven't had the tiller in mine for at least 2 years and I'm not going back. My neighbor doesn't understand it but I don't have to take a year off to rest the ground, I don't have to worry about 8' tall pigweed, and as the worms digest the covers, you build a layer of very crumbly, rich topsoil right in the root zone.

Here's a quick fix for the wash- stake some straw bales down across the head of your garden. It will slow down and divert that water. The key to preventing erosion is maintaining the soil's integrity and dispersing the water's energy.

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[WTM]

sorry i didnt see your latest reply Jcalder. you definately have some water problems. this is the problem with heavy tillage in spots like these, and your not alone. i had the same problem 25 years ago with a small 5 acre truck patch. one plot had a grade to it before i found the benefits of a cover crop.

like Mick T said, hay bales on the upside will disperse the water for now and you can even take a garden hoe and make a furrow around that will catch the water and channel it around the garden. just make sure you tamp the furrow with your foot or tamp board so it doesnt wash.

a mix of oats/wheat and crimson clover/winter peas would have kept your soil in place and disperse the water throughout the garden.

 

[Forvols]

This is really interesting, I'm already tired of fighting weeds this year in my till garden.

 

[WTM]

This is really interesting, I'm already tired of fighting weeds this year in my till garden.

yep, not only does it create green light to the weed seeds but winter grains and brassicas covers are allelopathic, which means when the die they release a chemical that keep weed seeds from sprouting. a natural herbicide. but you have to be careful some vegetables do not like this property, mainly cabbage and lettuce. for spring plots i always add compost and mulch on top. when spring comes, i pull away the mulch a bit and plant cabbage, onions and lettuce.

as long as you kill or crimp 2 weeks before your plant dates you will be fine on the other vegetables.

oh, and crabgrass has allelopathic properties as well. thats why its hard to get rid of unles you remove it from the garden. winter grains also suppresses bermuda grass.

 

[Jcalder]

sorry i didnt see your latest reply Jcalder. you definately have some water problems. this is the problem with heavy tillage in spots like these, and your not alone. i had the same problem 25 years ago with a small 5 acre truck patch. one plot had a grade to it before i found the benefits of a cover crop.

like Mick T said, hay bales on the upside will disperse the water for now and you can even take a garden hoe and make a furrow around that will catch the water and channel it around the garden. just make sure you tamp the furrow with your foot or tamp board so it doesnt wash.

a mix of oats/wheat and crimson clover/winter peas would have kept your soil in place and disperse the water throughout the garden.

last summer I cut a furrow all the way around 3 sides of my garden. The problem is the longest side has a low sot and that's where the water flows thru my garden. At this point I've quit tilling. It quit washing lol. Weeds aren't bad but I need to hoe my corn again. I'd try the hay bales but haven't had the time to get any.


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[Forvols]

This is really interesting, I'm already tired of fighting weeds this year in my till garden.

yep, not only does it create green light to the weed seeds but winter grains and brassicas covers are allelopathic, which means when the die they release a chemical that keep weed seeds from sprouting. a natural herbicide. but you have to be careful some vegetables do not like this property, mainly cabbage and lettuce. for spring plots i always add compost and mulch on top. when spring comes, i pull away the mulch a bit and plant cabbage, onions and lettuce.

as long as you kill or crimp 2 weeks before your plant dates you will be fine on the other vegetables.

oh, and crabgrass has allelopathic properties as well. thats why its hard to get rid of unles you remove it from the garden. winter grains also suppresses bermuda grass.

I'm really thinking of trying this in the fall. I have a 50x40(2ksqft) garden area this year. But could go bigger. So I haven't looked back through your threads but your original soil description is pretty much what mine is now. I have the rocks etc cleaned out but still soil is more compact and not a compost or good topsoil quality(although it does grow good amounts of vegetables). Where did you get the mix of cover crop and when do you start working up the ground to plant it?

 

[WTM]

yep mine grew huge amounts the first year but it was back breaking to get it loose enough.

i got mine at the co-op. the winter oats i had to buy a 50 lb bag but the winter peas they sold by the pound. they sell crimson clover as well. Mick T also sent me a link for Hancock seed and they sell smaller quantity bags and usually free shipping.

i started this stand sept 27 but got lucky with a mild winter. i usually have it planted by the end of august or labor day to yield more tonnage. oats and barley will winter kill if cold enough. with winter wheat you can go all the way to Oct 15 or after the first frost date. also plant a mix of at least 2 type, ie legume and winter grain and plant half the amount of winter grain.

 

[MickThompson]

Like WTM, I mix my own from the farm store. I have gone full zero till in mine though. I don't turn the summer residue or winter cover under, just plant right through.

Last year I sowed crimson clover in mid august so it has time to get started. I simply broadcast it over the whole garden, and I had quite a few areas that were still producing then.

I followed that with top sowing wheat and turnips on Oct 1 to fill in the thin spots.

After terminating my covers in the spring, I simply poke holes and put seed in the ground.

Check out the video in my other thread. Ray is a little over the top, but it isn't government propaganda. Cover crops are ancient technology but still work.


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[Hunter 257W]

When you guys are talking about "crimping" I assume you just mean you are mashing the cover crop down so that it acts as mulch and using a fancy new term for that? If that's so, it makes sense to me assuming the crop you are running over is dead and will cover the ground the same as mulch does. That's a LOT less work than bringing in a wagon load of hay and spreading it over a garden. I'm still not sure why you need to make a special tool though. Why couldn't you use a cultipacker or some such tool?

 

[Jcalder]

When you guys are talking about "crimping" I assume you just mean you are mashing the cover crop down so that it acts as mulch and using a fancy new term for that? If that's so, it makes sense to me assuming the crop you are running over is dead and will cover the ground the same as mulch does. That's a LOT less work than bringing in a wagon load of hay and spreading it over a garden. I'm still not sure why you need to make a special tool though. Why couldn't you use a cultipacker or some such tool?

crimping breaks the stem which in turn kills the plant. As it dies it acts as mulch or like straw would in a garden.


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