Ever feel lost??

[MossyOakChick]

I have a 250 acre lease in Putnam county. I know it isn't enough land to control but lord I feel like I want to control it as if I were in Canada in the middle of nowhere. Anyone else have this affliction? I have another 200 acres in Bledsoe and 1000 acres in Clay county. I know it sounds like alot and I am fortunate to have it to hunt. With all that I am yet to score on a good buck over 3 1/2. Its so hard for me to handle in my mind. Example on the lease I have a husband, brother, Papa, and father in law that hunt it. My FIL and I pass on anything 2 1/2 and under. I am sure it is road hunted some and the other three on the lease we will say TRY to go by the 2 1/2 guidelines but I know that each year my brother breaks the rules and just yesterday my husband took a nice 2 1/2 7 point with alot of potential. I was so mad we barely talked. I hate to be that way and I tried to be supportive but I just can't help but be upset. The 1000 acres in Clay backs up to a park that is open to hunting and is poached heavily on the back side. We went through and put out several plots, camera's etc. After a couple years and driving an hour and a half away every morning to hunt we realized that losing several cameras and not getting alot of good feedback wasn't worth it. Yes I am a mother, full time worker and wife so I don't have the time or money to put into fighting poachers, building plots, and traveling to keep it all in check. The new land I got in Bledsoe is the most promising (still an hour) but I am the ONLY person who can hunt it. I have hunted the property three times this year and saw several deer everytime. I am hoping this is my ticket with permission to put up signs and build food plots. BUT all in all we cannot control other people's actions wether it be family, poachers, theives etc. And it makes me VERY MAD! I don't see why anyone would want to ruin a great opportunity at growing big deer?! Unless we are someone who can't hunt often, a child, or a new hunter. But if we consider ourselves die hard hunters why would we not want to grow a great deer herd and enjoy the hunt! Sorry about this.... Just needed to vent to someone.

 

[nate17]

You gotta understand that the term 'trophy' is relative. Some people are quite content killing 1.5 and 2.5 yr old deer.

With that being said I have had a similar problem to yours. We have a small piece of land that my family hunts every year. In the past family members would shoot practically anything with bone on its head. The property also recieved quite a bit of surrounding pressure. I pushed letting the smaller deer walk for a few years with not much success. I finally got a small string of good luck tho. Everyone shooting the smaller deer had a couple years of bad luck while I was able to kill a couple of nice deer. Everyone started paying attention. Coincidentally the neighboring land owners continue to increase in age limiting opportunities and the decrease in surrounding pressure has allowed an older age class of deer to develop as well.

I do nothing to this land except maintain it at an early succesional stage providing some of the best available habitat within several hundred acres. We commonly kill 3.5 yr old deer and snatch up an occasional 4.5 now. This piece of land is 7.5 acres.

Im sure its frustrating, but theres u some livin proof!

 

[McNasty]

This problem is region-wide and has more to do with our culture and number of hunters than anything. People are just going to shoot young bucks, and they are never going to believe that there's a problem with it. Most don't understand the first thing about biology or deer behavior other than what they've heard from some know-nothing.

I've kept very good records on our family farm since August of 2007. Since then, I've observed 653 deer and collected over 10,000 trail camera pictures. In that amount of time, I've killed one 4.5 year old buck and had pictures of one more. I've had pictures of 9 3.5 year old bucks, 8 of which are hanging on my wall. So of the deer I've actually laid eyes on, 9 of 653 were bucks older than 2.5. That comes out to a whopping 1.3%. I'll admit that I've killed exactly 1 yearling and 1 2.5 year old myself.
Tennessee is a wonderful state to learn hunting skills in because the deer are so weary. If you can kill a buck in the older age classes here, you can do it anywhere, but if you truly want a legitimate chance of killing a mature animal every year, you are going to have to leave this state. You can pretty much travel anywhere North or West and find what you're looking for. Here, you're just whizzing into the wind. Trust me, I've learned the hard way.

 

[Football Hunter]

Its tough,especially if neighbors work against you.My advice,make some thick areas,big and nasty,by logging or just cut em and let em fall.Best thing you can do,IMO.

 

[Hardwoodmaterials]

The biggest problem in deer hunting is the people that look down on others for shooting deer! I have seen people make a young kid feel bad about shooting a spike buck that was his first deer. He was tickled to death to kill the little buck but thanks to trophy hunters looking down on him at the check station he felt guilty for shooting it and didn't want to go back. What gives any trophy snob the right to try to tell someone else what they should consider a trophy? I can't stand people that think they are better than the next guy because they pass on certain deer. Most people that trophy manage their property just end up miserable and bitter because they can't control their neighbors property. Maybe you should try getting off your high horse and join in the fun of hunting with your husband and family and enjoy your time outdoors. You can't control what poachers, neighbors, or even your own family kill when they are in the woods hunting. Why not just be glad you have some where to hunt and someone to hunt with! Big horns are not every thing!

 

[Football Hunter]

The biggest problem in deer hunting is the people that look down on others for shooting deer! I have seen people make a young kid feel bad about shooting a spike buck that was his first deer. He was tickled to death to kill the little buck but thanks to trophy hunters looking down on him at the check station he felt guilty for shooting it and didn't want to go back. What gives any trophy snob the right to try to tell someone else what they should consider a trophy? I can't stand people that think they are better than the next guy because they pass on certain deer. Most people that trophy manage their property just end up miserable and bitter because they can't control their neighbors property. Maybe you should try getting off your high horse and join in the fun of hunting with your husband and family and enjoy your time outdoors. You can't control what poachers, neighbors, or even your own family kill when they are in the woods hunting. Why not just be glad you have some where to hunt and someone to hunt with! Big horns are not every thing!

While I agree its bad to put down a kid,I have no problem with someone trying to improve their own property.If it was my place,my family or friends would not be3 shooting young or small bucks,or they wouldnt be back.

BTW ,This is the QDM forum.

 

[PickettSFHunter]

The biggest problem in deer hunting is the people that look down on others for shooting deer! I have seen people make a young kid feel bad about shooting a spike buck that was his first deer. He was tickled to death to kill the little buck but thanks to trophy hunters looking down on him at the check station he felt guilty for shooting it and didn't want to go back. What gives any trophy snob the right to try to tell someone else what they should consider a trophy? I can't stand people that think they are better than the next guy because they pass on certain deer. Most people that trophy manage their property just end up miserable and bitter because they can't control their neighbors property. Maybe you should try getting off your high horse and join in the fun of hunting with your husband and family and enjoy your time outdoors. You can't control what poachers, neighbors, or even your own family kill when they are in the woods hunting. Why not just be glad you have some where to hunt and someone to hunt with! Big horns are not every thing!

While I agree its bad to put down a kid,I have no problem with someone trying to improve their own property.If it was my place,my family or friends would not be3 shooting young or small bucks,or they wouldnt be back.

BTW ,This is the QDM forum.

Yep.

 

[Hardwoodmaterials]

The biggest problem in deer hunting is the people that look down on others for shooting deer! I have seen people make a young kid feel bad about shooting a spike buck that was his first deer. He was tickled to death to kill the little buck but thanks to trophy hunters looking down on him at the check station he felt guilty for shooting it and didn't want to go back. What gives any trophy snob the right to try to tell someone else what they should consider a trophy? I can't stand people that think they are better than the next guy because they pass on certain deer. Most people that trophy manage their property just end up miserable and bitter because they can't control their neighbors property. Maybe you should try getting off your high horse and join in the fun of hunting with your husband and family and enjoy your time outdoors. You can't control what poachers, neighbors, or even your own family kill when they are in the woods hunting. Why not just be glad you have some where to hunt and someone to hunt with! Big horns are not every thing!

While I agree its bad to put down a kid,I have no problem with someone trying to improve their own property.If it was my place,my family or friends would not be3 shooting young or small bucks,or they wouldnt be back.

BTW ,This is the QDM forum.

So deer horns means more than spending time outdoors hunting with friends and family. At least we know where you stand!

 

[Football Hunter]

It aint hard to tell where I stand,yes,on my place its my rules,thats why I busted my a$$ and bought it."Know where you stand,and stand there"

Not concerned with what you think about what I do on my land,this is still a semi free country,my land ,my rules,period.

 

[BowGuy84]

It aint hard to tell where I stand,yes,on my place its my rules,thats why I busted my a$$ and bought it."Know where you stand,and stand there"

Not concerned with what you think about what I do on my land,this is still a semi free country,my land ,my rules,period.

Amen. I don't get carried away with what my neighbors do. I do care what happens to the deer on my land. If I bust my hump to make the best habitat possible, then lay off the youngones it will improve. I've seen it in the past 3 years and expect more in the years to come.

If the wind would cooperate this year I'd show you a good un in the next couple of weeks...right now I'm unable to hunt my best areas.

 

[Hardwoodmaterials]

This is where whitetail deer hunting will be before long if peoples attitude about trophy hunting doesn't change. http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/nat ... le2226611/

 

[Football Hunter]

Didnt look ,dont care what it says,Ill do what I want on my place.

 

[McNasty]

Southern culture is not very conducive to trophy management. There is too much competition among hunters, and a lot of people are still carrying habits from the days when seeing a deer was like hitting the lottery.
Like I said, if you want a legitimate chance to hunt buck in the older age classes, save the $ and travel north and or west.

 

[BigGameGuy]

Like I said, if you want a legitimate chance to hunt buck in the older age classes, save the $ and travel north and or west.

On average, they really don't have older deer, they simply have bigger antlered deer.

 

[JCDEERMAN]

Like I said, if you want a legitimate chance to hunt buck in the older age classes, save the $ and travel north and or west.

On average, they really don't have older deer, they simply have bigger antlered deer.

Right on BGG

 

[McNasty]

They have bigger antlered deer in some places no doubt, but the percentages in each age class are VERY different at least by the data I've collected in the areas I've hunted and photographed. Could be that the specific places I hunt in TN are below average and the specific places elsewhere are above average. I can't rule that one out based on one man's study.

 

[megalomaniac]

Like I said, if you want a legitimate chance to hunt buck in the older age classes, save the $ and travel north and or west.

On average, they really don't have older deer, they simply have bigger antlered deer.

Dang it, why can't you guys make our deer grow bigger antlers?

but seriously, BGG is right. Your local herd may be severely skewed and there are very few mature bucks where you hunt... but you could go to other parts of TN and find an age structure similar to the 'big buck' states.

My take on this thread...

there are definetly 2 sides- trophy vs young buck killers. And there's plenty of deer to go around to satisfy both in most instances.

The brown and down guys NEED the trophy buck hunters to keep passing up multiple young bucks... if all the hunters out there who are currently passing up young bucks started killing the first three bucks that walked out, the brown and down hunters would start finding it much harder to fill a tag. The trophy hunters often feel that the only ones benefiting from their passing up young bucks are the brown and down'ers

But the trophy hunters also NEED the the brown and down hunters to not overharvest the yearling buck resource for those bucks to be recruited into older age classes. Of course, this ends up benefiting both the trophy hunters as well as the brown and down hunters.

As long as no more than a third of the yearling bucks are removed annually, there will be plenty remaining to be recruited into older age classes. But that can also be a problem in many areas due to the 3 buck limit and multiple hunters in a smaller area unwilling to pass up young bucks. If you're stuck in one of those areas, it does suck that you will not be able to reach your goal of killing an older buck, while everyone else is killing everything. But there's really nothing you can do about it unless you high-fence your property... which will be the wave of the future of private land deer hunting. With a high-fence, your neighbor can do whatever he wants, it won't affect you one bit (unless he cuts the fence- a criminal offense).

 

[megalomaniac]

They have bigger antlered deer in some places no doubt, but the percentages in each age class are VERY different at least by the data I've collected in the areas I've hunted and photographed. Could be that the specific places I hunt in TN are below average and the specific places elsewhere are above average. I can't rule that one out based on one man's study.

If you used the kill data from only my property and extrapolated it to statewide levels, you would conclude that we have no 1.5 y/o or 2.5 y/o's in this state and that all bucks in TN are mostly 4.5 with a handful of 3.5's and 5.5's...

But when the state is AVERAGED as a whole, TN's age structure is excellent. Of course there are pockets that are better (due to hunter management), and pockets that are MUCH worse (usually due to hunter mismanagement in the form of overharvest of young bucks).

As I stated before though, there really is nothing wrong with killing a few young bucks... in most places there are plenty to go around. But hunters should be responsible (since TWRA is not going to micromanage the multiple pockets with skewed age ratios) to ensure they do not overharvest the young bucks.

 

[BowGirl]

My area stinks. I dont think some in west and middle TN can grasp the situation because its pretty good most places over there from what ive seen. Its frustrating, but all you can do is just take your money elsewhere and hope they wake up.

 

[fairchaser]

Since when is QDMA and trophy management the same thing? A big part of QDMA is hunter satisfaction. Without that, we've got nothing. The last I checked, QDMA is about allowing bucks to mature whether they are trophy quality or not. The deer can't read and they don't belong to anyone. If you want to control the herd, then buy up more land. But, you can only control who shoots what on your own land and if an animal walks across the line, to bad. On the other hand, I have no patience for poachers and theives. They should be procescuted to the limits. I am thankful for every legal hunter that wants to pass on the tradition no matter what they want to shoot. We need them all.

 

[McNasty]

I said nothing about using only harvest data or data from one location, and I'm not particularly fond of someone implying that I'd be enough of an idiot to do so. I have taken special care to keep my studies pure and unbiased. I have nothing at all to gain or lose by collecting these numbers except knowledge.
I do not put alot of stock in our harvest data because of the way it is collected. Many of the counties in TN have 1 or 0 animals included in our age data each season. That is not a shot at our agency. I think they do a fine job, and running around aging every deer that is harvested is not something I'd ever expect. They have plenty to do just enforcing the law. If I want data, I'll collect it myself. My numbers don't match, and my numbers are the only ones I trust or care about. My numbers are telling me to fill the freezer here, and fill the wall somewhere else. I've just learned to appreciate the times when I hit the lottery and photograph or take an animal 3.5+ without leaving the state.

 

[BSK]

Mega hit on the key factor. Just because the area you hunt in TN doesn't have great herd conditions doesn't mean that all of TN has bad herd conditions. Some parts of TN have buck age structures that equal anywhere in the popular trophy states. And just like TN, those trophy states have regions that are good and bad.

It always makes me laugh when hunters that hunt in one of the poorer regions of TN seek out the best regions in another state and then point out how different the two states are. Well you've purposefully biased your perpective. The only real comparison is the best areas of one state versus the best areas of another state.

If you want to hunt only mature bucks in TN, then seek out those areas most conducive to mature bucks. The most common factors (but not the only factors) that determine the mature buck density are a combination of deer density and hunter density. In essence, look for the parts of TN with the highest deer density (Central basin) and the lowest hunter density (areas with many leases/clubs that limit hunter density). Very low visibility habitat/terrain also limits hunter harvest and increases buck age structure but can make hunting the mature bucks that exist very difficult (you can grow mature bucks but killing them becomes very difficult).

 

[BSK]

A big part of QDMA is hunter satisfaction. Without that, we've got nothing. The last I checked, QDMA is about allowing bucks to mature whether they are trophy quality or not.

I completely agree with the first statement, but just remember that QDM isn't specifically about producing mature bucks, it is simply about producing a more natural and healthy herd structure. Now some bucks reaching marturity are part of a natural and healthy herd structure, they will always make up only a very small percentage of the total buck population.

 

[McNasty]

I never said that ALL of TN has bad conditions, and I'm not just hunting one area like you imply either. The data I have for various areas in TN pretty much matches up with MS and AL so we're not alone, either. Every state has small areas that are the exception to the rule. Yeah, I have and could lease and hunt one of the scarce areas in TN with the age structure I'm looking for, but I'd rather take the same amount of money and have two or even three leases out of state where places like that are the average and not the rule.
Comparing the top spots in different states is HS. That's as ignorant as saying that a football team is championship caliber because they have one awesome player. What are you basing your numbers for TN and other states on by the way? Something you found online? Reports from the agencies? Things others have told you? Have you spent time gathering the information yourself and how did you find time while posting online over 55,000 times?

 

[BSK]

McNasty,

I'm basing my views on information provided by state agencies as well as my own data.

Considering that TN as both a whole and by region report fairly good harvested buck age data, I don't believe that "good" buck age structures are as rare as you suppose. In factr, I believe "bad" buck age structures are more the exception than the rule.

In fact, TN's harvest buck age structure is very close and in some cases exceeds the data from the Midwestern states.

 

[Football Hunter]

McNasty,

I'm basing my views on information provided by state agencies as well as my own data.

Considering that TN as both a whole and by region report fairly good harvested buck age data, I don't believe that "good" buck age structures are as rare as you suppose. In factr, I believe "bad" buck age structures are more the exception than the rule.

In fact, TN's harvest buck age structure is very close and in some cases exceeds the data from the Midwestern states.

Wonder why that is?Seeing as how most of the mid western states have much stricter buck limits,and shorter seasons,with much fewer bucks being killed by percentage of deer population,I would guess.

 

[BSK]

McNasty,

I'm basing my views on information provided by state agencies as well as my own data.

Considering that TN as both a whole and by region report fairly good harvested buck age data, I don't believe that "good" buck age structures are as rare as you suppose. In factr, I believe "bad" buck age structures are more the exception than the rule.

In fact, TN's harvest buck age structure is very close and in some cases exceeds the data from the Midwestern states.

Wonder why that is?Seeing as how most of the mid western states have much stricter buck limits,and shorter seasons,with much fewer bucks being killed by percentage of deer population,I would guess.

The answer is, low buck bag limits and short seasons don't increase buck age structure. Increasing hunter selectivity does.

 

[Football Hunter]

I agree with that,hunter selectivity,still,with a smaller percentage of bucks being taken,seems odd,especially when you consider that many hunters in mid western states Im sure are selective too.I bet the same percentage as here.

Not trying to start any kind of buck limit type arguement,just wondering about the math.

 

[BSK]

I agree with that,hunter selectivity,still,with a smaller percentage of bucks being taken,seems odd,especially when you consider that many hunters in mid western states Im sure are selective too.I bet the same percentage as here.

Not trying to start any kind of buck limit type arguement,just wondering about the math.

Best indications are, short gun seasons increase the kill of young bucks, as hunters don't feel they have the hunting opportunity to be selective.

 

[Football Hunter]

I agree with that,hunter selectivity,still,with a smaller percentage of bucks being taken,seems odd,especially when you consider that many hunters in mid western states Im sure are selective too.I bet the same percentage as here.

Not trying to start any kind of buck limit type arguement,just wondering about the math.

Best indications are, short gun seasons increase the kill of young bucks, as hunters don't feel they have the hunting opportunity to be selective.

Ok,guess the math of"that leaves more older bucks for next year" stops working at some point then,cause they just die off from natural causes.