backyardtndeer
Well-Known Member
Yep. Watching and listening to them has helped me a lot with my calling sequences. Pulling in a lone hot doe is the best attractant and decoy possible.
Doe cycle
- Thread starter Jack Reed
- Start date
BSK
Well-Known Member
That is GREAT information!
All that is true, but females (including does) are NOT fertile at the time of ovulation. It takes about 48 hours after ovulation for the eggs to "ripen" or be able to be breached by sperm cell. In our business, we ship semen around the globe-both frozen and chilled. Primary breeding times for us is 48 and 96 hours after ovulation. If doing surgical insemination- 96 hours and do one. With our registered cattled, we bred morning after standing heat. So ovulation and conception are 2 totally different events occurring on different days. We run blood progesterone levels to determine LH surge and consequent ovulation.
We have had viable semen tested 6 days after collection. It has alot to do with the overall health of the stud and much to do with the age of stud (buck). Sperm viability within the female has much to do with the internal dynamics of the uterus, most importantly is the pH
megalomaniac
Well-Known Member
Totally different than humans then!
But again, I'm not an expert on whitetail ovulation timing... deer may be more similar to cattle.
But whats really crazy are alpacas... my cousin farms them. They ovulate at any time, not on a heat cycle... but only after a male romances them for a period of time rubbing their front legs on their mid section... which stimulates the females to ovulate... then they mate as ovulation occurs...at least that what he tells me, and he is a wildlife biologist and one of the most knowledgeable alpaca farmers in TN.
But bottom line is that the egg is only viable for a short period of time after ovulation with most mammals, while sperm is viable for longer in the genital tract. Copulation before ovulation can result in a viable pregnancy, but copulation a day after ovulation will not likely result in a successful pregnancy
BSK
Well-Known Member
If this is the case with whitetails, and I suspect it is, that would explain the "pattern" of the ritualistic chase sequence between buck and doe. A buck can probably smell that a doe has ovulated and begins to pursue her. She, at first, runs scared from the buck because she is not biologically receptive yet. But as time passes (a day or so) she slows down and the "chase" becomes more of what many of us hunters consider the true estrus chase: the doe trots ahead, stops and checks to make sure the buck is right behind her, and the buck follows slowly trotting along behind, head down and grunting.
Nature eventually works out everything. It is assumed the "chase phase" of estrus - by chasing all over the countryside for 24-48 hours - is Nature's way of ensuring the maximum number of bucks in the area know about the doe's impending readiness to breed. This allows many bucks to compete for her attention, ensuring the "fittest" most dominant buck eventually breeds her (although it can also mean she eventually gets bred by multiple bucks). Some research also suggests there is some mate selection by does, in that females may visually choose one buck over another. The criteria for their choice is unknown.
Study Shows Female Deer Prefer Bigger-Antlered Bucks As Mates | Caesar Kleberg Wildlife Research Institute
SAN ANTONIO — Some Southern engineering was used to conduct what is being described as remarkable behavioral research with deer. Specifically, the study addressed whether or not female deer play a role in choosing their mates.
I watched a video where MSU deer lab cut off bucks' antlers and adapted the nubs with an apparatus that allowed any antler to be attached. They could make a 5yr old buck look like a 1yr old, and visa versa. They aligned three cages in a row and put the estrus doe in the middle, sandwiched between two bucks. One buck was mature and one was not, but the antlers could be switched back & forth. In test after test the doe butted up against the cage of whichever buck was wearing the the big antlers at the time. It strongly suggested that a doe, if given a choice will select the biggest rack to be her stud. That obviously is a controlled study viewing through a very narrow window. No doubt there are more complex factors at play in nature. But it sure seemed to align exactly with the theory that the "chase" is her way of ensuring as many bucks as possible compete for her, and that she doesn't want just any runt. She wants a brute.
I tried to find the video on YouTube but couldn't. I did find an article from a Texas A&M program detailing it in the link.
BSK
Well-Known Member
I love studies like this! Truly fascinating stuff. But as you pointed out, that was a controlled study. In Nature it is assumed there is some mate selection by does, but that isn't the only factor in which buck sires a particular fawn.Study Shows Female Deer Prefer Bigger-Antlered Bucks As Mates | Caesar Kleberg Wildlife Research Institute
SAN ANTONIO — Some Southern engineering was used to conduct what is being described as remarkable behavioral research with deer. Specifically, the study addressed whether or not female deer play a role in choosing their mates.www.ckwri.tamuk.edu
I watched a video where MSU deer lab cut off bucks' antlers and adapted the nubs with an apparatus that allowed any antler to be attached. They could make a 5yr old buck look like a 1yr old, and visa versa. They aligned three cages in a row and put the estrus doe in the middle, sandwiched between two bucks. One buck was mature and one was not, but the antlers could be switched back & forth. In test after test the doe butted up against the cage of whichever buck was wearing the the big antlers at the time. It strongly suggested that a doe, if given a choice will select the biggest rack to be her stud. That obviously is a controlled study viewing through a very narrow window. No doubt there are more complex factors at play in nature. But it sure seemed to align exactly with the theory that the "chase" is her way of ensuring as many bucks as possible compete for her, and that she doesn't want just any runt. She wants a brute.
I tried to find the video on YouTube but couldn't. I did find an article from a Texas A&M program detailing it in the link.
A long-running landmark study from Oklahoma (I believe it was in a 4,000-acre high-fence), found that the most successful sire bucks were by no means the largest antlered bucks. In fact, they were very much average antler-wise for their age. However, they were very aggressive bucks. That study also pointed out just how "spread out" successful breeding is through the buck population, with very few bucks siring multiple fawns per year.
Yeah I don't personally think a big dominant stud buck makes his rounds to all the does as much as some folks seem to think. Does aren't waiting their turn with him. What I've seen is that bulks of does come into heat at the same time, making it impossible for one buck to breed them all. I'm sure there's a natural selection cause for it to work that way. Logically it would go a long ways in preventing inbreeding because none of the fawns in that herd will be closely related due to all sharing a common father. But I really don't know.
Something uncanny I have seen play out is an older buck showing out of the blue and hanging around one particular doe for a week or so, then disappearing again not to be seen until the following year doing almost exactly the same thing, presumably with the same doe. It sure seems as if he knows her, knows when she's gonna heat up, and plans his visit accordingly. I can only assume he moves from lady to lady in that manner, which would also explain why older bucks seem to suddenly appear then a few days later suddenly disappear. That's not their core. It's just a girlfriend in another town. Or at least that's how I make sense of it.
Great Sharing guys. this cycles with everything I've learnt as well. One of our tricks for forecasting the First RUT is to keep cameras out over the spring and summer. Check them less frequently. have the date and time set correctly. From the DAY you see the first small fawn on camera, subtract 200 days. The gestational period for Whitetail is between 199-201 days. This will give you a good idea on when the first Rut occurs, and you can schedule appropriately.
There's also studies that show roughly 25% of does are bred by spikes and fork-horns - so who knows what the determining factors are.Study Shows Female Deer Prefer Bigger-Antlered Bucks As Mates | Caesar Kleberg Wildlife Research Institute
SAN ANTONIO — Some Southern engineering was used to conduct what is being described as remarkable behavioral research with deer. Specifically, the study addressed whether or not female deer play a role in choosing their mates.
I watched a video where MSU deer lab cut off bucks' antlers and adapted the nubs with an apparatus that allowed any antler to be attached. They could make a 5yr old buck look like a 1yr old, and visa versa. They aligned three cages in a row and put the estrus doe in the middle, sandwiched between two bucks. One buck was mature and one was not, but the antlers could be switched back & forth. In test after test the doe butted up against the cage of whichever buck was wearing the the big antlers at the time. It strongly suggested that a doe, if given a choice will select the biggest rack to be her stud. That obviously is a controlled study viewing through a very narrow window. No doubt there are more complex factors at play in nature. But it sure seemed to align exactly with the theory that the "chase" is her way of ensuring as many bucks as possible compete for her, and that she doesn't want just any runt. She wants a brute.
I tried to find the video on YouTube but couldn't. I did find an article from a Texas A&M program detailing it in the link.
Sage advice, but I would subtract 220 or so days because newborn fawns lay around hiding for a while before venturing out very far.
BSK
Well-Known Member
In the Oklahoma study I mentioned - one of the most intensive studies I've ever seen - researchers would go afield at fawning time and capture newborn fawns and take a blood sample. From this they could sequence the fawn's DNA. They believe they captured around 50% of all fawns born every year. They also got DNA from every deer killed inside the fenced area (they had quota hunts inside the fence each year). And most ingeniously, they would conduct big searches in spring to collect as many dropped antlers as possible and get DNA from those as well. Eventually, they built a huge database that included the unique DNA of most of the deer inside the fence. This huge database of DNA was used to establish the entire lineage of the population, being able to determine who was the sire and dame of each deer. It was this landmark study that finally dispelled the idea that mature bucks do the vast majority of the breeding. In reality, all ages of bucks successfully breed, even when mature bucks are present. However, what they found was that the oldest age-classes of bucks were over-represented in successful sirings and the youngest age-classes were under-represented. I don't remember the exact numbers, but it was something like mature bucks, that only made up 15% of the population, sired around 30% of the fawns each year, while yearling bucks, that made up 35% of the population, only sired 20% of the fawns. So it isn't that mature bucks keep yearling from breeding, it is that the youngest bucks produce the fewest successful breedings per buck, while mature bucks produce the most successful breedings per buck.
BSK
Well-Known Member
I have heard and read others who have noticed this pattern as well. Some believe that the truly old bucks (5+) get less aggressive with their age but highly selective about breeding just a couple does. It is the 3 and 4 year-old bucks that are super aggressive running around trying to beat everybody else up!
They definitey arent in for a week. To my knowledge, only canines have a heat cycle over a week, and even with them the fertile window is very short. In fact, most people see the bloody portion of the cycle as being fertile and after running literally hundreds of progesterone tests i found that very rarely does bleeding and fertility over lap. Of course deer seem to cycle more like cattle, a shorter more intense estrous with ovulation occurring towards the end- hence the chasing period, giving the released eggs times to mature
sounds familiar!!
on the old buck part...
TheLBLman
Well-Known Member
I believe mature does will often "seek" a particular mature buck.
I've observed many times an old doe going out of her way, seemingly looking for, a particular mature buck. This behavior is similar to a rutting buck "roaming" searching for an estrous doe. But unlike the great distances travelled by roaming bucks, these mature does seem more like they just know a particular buck tends to bed often on the side of a particular ridge.
Most adult does more around a lot when coming into estrous, but often more in small circles, just on their feet, not really traveling much linear distance. What I'm talking about is observing a mature doe make a bee line to a mature buck bedding area, an area doe groups typically don't frequent, then hanging around just there, seemingly waiting for this particular buck to show.
i almost exclusively scrape hunt during the rut. i monitor prime scrape lines with cell cams. Im amazed at the amount of lone does that lurk around these scrapes for a period during rut. I can only speculate they are looking to get bred
I've seen the same. I've also noticed an old nanny will abandon her previous year's fawn for days even though I never saw a buck come to corral her away. I assume she's going to him, and I think it probably happens as regularly as a buck will travel to specifically visit her. It's almost monogamy.
