Deer hunting as we know it now.

[fairchaser]

This is unfortunate and most will just shake your head and say no way. But, in
my experience, he is 100% correct.

 

[BSK]

Is CWD real? Of course it is. I'm just not a believer in the idea deer densities are going to collapse because of it. Impact deer densities? Oh yes. Wipe them out, no.

 

[Iglow]

IDK but I won't discount it. I saw bobwhite quail go from huntable worthwhile populations to having a better chance of seeing a wild Cape Buffalo as a covey of wild birds. I know that's apples and oranges but stuff happens to animals and plants, they disappear, look a chestnut trees and ash trees now, they are going and there is nothing we can do to stop it. CWD probably won't wipe deer out but I bet it could make the rare as hen's teeth.

 

[Griswold]

For starters no where has it wiped them out , not even to the tune of the knee jerk reactions of some the moronic state agencies. Will it thin them out and change things , yes , will they go extinct, no! Cant stand to listen or watch woods talk

 

[PickettSFHunter]

Our already low population has been in decline for years where I am and cwd isn't even a factor in that yet. The good ol days have been done in my area for years now.

 

[Ski]

I think the gist of his point was that CWD is exacerbated by baiting. And he's not wrong. But I don't agree that deer are going to be diminished to only 2-4 per square mile because of it. I'm mostly a fan of Dr. Woods but that right there is a scare tactic to drive an anti-bait agenda. That's not about CWD. It's using CWD to scare people into changing their minds about baiting. Also that's a short snippet from a much longer conversation so some context may be missing.

 

[BSK]

I think the gist of his point was that CWD is exacerbated by baiting.

On this, we agree. In the vast majority of cases, baiting is a bad idea biologically.

 

[deerhunter10]

IDK but I won't discount it. I saw bobwhite quail go from huntable worthwhile populations to having a better chance of seeing a wild Cape Buffalo as a covey of wild birds. I know that's apples and oranges but stuff happens to animals and plants, they disappear, look a chestnut trees and ash trees now, they are going and there is nothing we can do to stop it. CWD probably won't wipe deer out but I bet it could make the rare as hen's teeth.

Habitat is the majority of the problems with quail. We have some on a few different properties that they were not on 7 or 8 years ago.

As far as cwd its seems that everything thats new and that hasn't been figured out is a sky is falling moment. We never take a breath and think anything out. We get in a frenzy and go to worse case scenarios. As tough and resilient and adaptive whitetail deer are its hard for me to think its going to be any where close to as bad as some people predict.

 

[sgtwebb1]

How long have we known about CWD--meaning, how long has it been here that we know of?

 

[BSK]

How long have we known about CWD--meaning, how long has it been here that we know of?

1960s. It was discovered in deer released to the wild from an enclosure that had held scrappie-infected sheep. CWD had jumped the species barrier from sheep to deer in that enclosure. Scrappie in sheep has been known for literally 1,000 years. Writings by sheep herders in the 12th Century describe the disease's symptoms perfectly. The area where CWD was first discovered still has a white-tailed deer population.

 

[Ski]

1960s. It was discovered in deer released to the wild from an enclosure that had held scrappie-infected sheep. CWD had jumped the species barrier from sheep to deer in that enclosure. Scrappie in sheep has been known for literally 1,000 years. The area where it was first discovered still has a white-tailed deer population.

If that farm had not began keeping deer but instead just quit keeping animals at all, how long do you reckon it would take for wild deer to infiltrate and begin eating plants growing on that farm? CWD reportedly stays in the soil forever and is even drawn up into growing vegetation. I've seen plenty sheep farms and none had a fence deer couldn't easily clear. Are we to believe wild deer weren't in & out of those enclosures same way they are cattle pastures?

I have no doubt that high fences went up to keep the domesticated deer and those deer inevitably became infected. But were they really the first deer to be infected?

 

[BSK]

If that farm had not began keeping deer but instead just quit keeping animals at all, how long do you reckon it would take for wild deer to infiltrate and begin eating plants growing on that farm? CWD reportedly stays in the soil forever and is even drawn up into growing vegetation. I've seen plenty sheep farms and none had a fence deer couldn't easily clear. Are we to believe wild deer weren't in & out of those enclosures same way they are cattle pastures?

I have no doubt that high fences went up to keep the domesticated deer and those deer inevitably became infected. But were they really the first deer to be infected?

I would guess we would not have CWD if deer had not been held inside the research facility right after the sheep. It is assumed it was the high dosage of prions in a closed environment (unnaturally forced close association) that allowed the cross-species jump.

 

[Woodsman10]

Yea. I think his argument is about baiting being bad for the wildlife. Because now baiting is allowed in Tennessee. Alabama started it just a few years ago.
Absolutely sickening that this is being actually legalized.

 

[killingtime 41]

without question baiting will lead to higher and higher prevalence rates. Along with it spreading more easily. Will it kill all the deer no just the ones that get it. And if it kills deer by 3.5. Then it seems the higher the prevalence rates get. Then you'll be mostly hunting for emaciated 3 1/2 year olds at best at some point. As long as it isn't in your area. Then you'll won't notice any difference. But somebody will.

 

[timberjack86]

 

[fairchaser]

I share in Dr Woods frustration because no matter what, no one believes that CWD could bring populations down this much. But, I have experienced just that in the heart of CWD zone in TN. There are just no deer. Sure there are few here and there but not a huntable population. That's my experience and I could give you a dozen hunters who would agree.

A multi year study in Arkansas was completed which proved the same thing. Five deer per square mile. This is for the worst areas. Maybe it never gets to your property or maybe it takes decades to get that bad. We are killing 25 deer on a property that produced 200+ in years past. That's with no antler restrictions where prior years had antler restrictions. It's just ruined the deer herd.

 

[bloodtrailing]

Sounds like disease and over harvesting was the problem. You keep talking about CWD and how few deer you now have, but revel in killing the only buck that was worth shooting. You ever thought about maybe the hunting should have stopped well before?

 

[Iglow]

Just the idea of it, you pull the trigger on one and wonder " is it infected? is it a zombie deer?" That CWD made the jump from sheep to deer, what if it gets froggy again when you're gutting your infected deer? That thought will cross more hunter's minds as time goes on I'd guess.

 

[Iglow]

I share in Dr Woods frustration because no matter what, no one believes that CWD could bring populations down this much. But, I have experienced just that in the heart of CWD zone in TN. There are just no deer. Sure there are few here and there but not a huntable population. That's my experience and I could give you a dozen hunters who would agree.

A multi year study in Arkansas was completed which proved the same thing. Five deer per square mile. This is for the worst areas. Maybe it never gets to your property or maybe it takes decades to get that bad. We are killing 25 deer on a property that produced 200+ in years past. That's with no antler restrictions where prior years had antler restrictions. It's just ruined the deer herd.

I know it's been out west for decades but IDK if the deer are as compressed and at high population levels there as they are in the South, we got a lotta deer that live closely together/come in contact with each other alot, I wonder how that will affect it spreading and reducing the number of deer?

 

[TheLBLman]

IDK but I won't discount it. I saw bobwhite quail go from huntable worthwhile populations to having a better chance of seeing a wild Cape Buffalo as a covey of wild birds. I know that's apples and oranges but stuff happens to animals and plants, they disappear, look a chestnut trees and ash trees now, they are going and there is nothing we can do to stop it. CWD probably won't wipe deer out but I bet it could make the rare as hen's teeth.

Very much agree with everything you said, except that last sentence, i.e. I don't think CWD will make deer rare as hen's teeth. Look at the states & places CWD has been the longest. Still plenty of deer in most those places.

Habitat is the majority of the problems with quail.

Not necessarily. I had remnant quail populations two & three decades ago, across thousands of acres consisting of better quail habitat than back in the 1950s & 60s when quail were very abundant on those same acres. We improved the habitat for quail, better everything for quail. Yet the quail population has continued to decline.

Ironically, I had a rooster bobwhite run across the road in front of me this afternoon. First one I've seen in months.

We have some on a few different properties that they were not on 7 or 8 years ago.

And will likely not be there at all in 7 or 8 more years. There's something (or a whole of somethings) going on besides the habitat.

 

[TheLBLman]

I share in Dr Woods frustration because no matter what, no one believes that CWD could bring populations down this much. But, I have experienced just that in the heart of CWD zone in TN . . . . .We are killing 25 deer on a property that produced 200+ in years past. That's with no antler restrictions where prior years had antler restrictions. It's just ruined the deer herd.

What you've experienced at Ames is beyond mere frustration!

But do you really think the current low deer density is only because of CWD?

 

[Lost Lake]

I would guess we would not have CWD if deer had not been held inside the research facility right after the sheep. It is assumed it was the high dosage of prions in a closed environment (unnaturally forced close association) that allowed the cross-species jump.

This is why I despise high fence enclosures.

 

[fairchaser]

What you've experienced at Ames is beyond mere frustration!

But do you really think the current low deer density is only because of CWD?

How would I know for sure? Nothing is that clearcut in wildlife management. Some other factors could be over harvesting of does prior to becoming aware of CWD. EHD doesn't seem to be prevalent. Lack of food, nope. Over predation, possibly from coyotes, maybe. Hunting pressure, definitely a factor as the population declines and hunters move more and hunt longer. CWD maybe gets blamed for any population decline but it's definitely a dark cloud over the herd with no sign of slowing down. The stats tell the story with 60% bucks and 40% does are positive. This is well over what the experts cite as population declining rates. I personally think the state should suspend hunting but they want the opposite.

 

[DoubleRidge]

Habitat is the majority of the problems with quail. We have some on a few different properties that they were not on 7 or 8 years ago.

Same for our area. Neighbors flushed two different coveys last year while shed hunting.Trying to improve habitat all we can and hoping they can increase in number...I remember always having quail around as a kid and would love to see them make a comeback...and I know it likely will never be like it was before....but just to have a few covey around would be nice.

 

[hammer33]

Woods is running a business and this is partially an attempt to protect his target market.
Throw in new baiting rules. a % of those owners/managers will think.... "hey lets set up a bunch of feeders near the shooting houses and kill all the big bucks we want! " No need to spend $$$$ on a consultant.
Allowing baiting is not a business model killer for the consultants, BUT it can and probably will chip away at the market. So Why not run a little PR and marketing with some hype and fuzzy science ?

Baiting was going to ruin hunting and kill all the deer and turkeys back before CWD was the Goto Boogy man for every management decision.

 

[Lost Lake]

Same for our area. Neighbors flushed two different coveys last year while shed hunting.Trying to improve habitat all we can and hoping they can increase in number...I remember always having quail around as a kid and would love to see them make a comeback...and I know it likely will never be like it was before....but just to have a few covey around would be nice.

Even though I come from a long line of quail hunters on my father's side of the family in Georgia, I've never quail hunted.

But, I do very much miss the adrenaline rush of having a covey explode under my feet as a kid here in middle Tennessee back in the 80's.

I'd love to see them come back.

 

[BSK]

The quail problem isn't a habitat problem. I've seen large landowners produce thousands of acres of quail habitat, but the quail never really bounce back. The quail problem is a predator problem. We used to trap and kill many of the quail predators. We no longer do.

 

[TheLBLman]

The quail problem isn't a habitat problem. I've seen large landowners produce thousands of acres of quail habitat, but the quail never really bounce back.

This is exactly what I've experienced. Always had quail, greatly improved the habitat for them, and longer-term, their populations have continued to decline.
Currently have less than one covey per 1,000 acres.

The quail problem is a predator problem.

I believe predation has been my #1 problem in preventing a quail comeback.
However, currently have the lowest racoon population ever, and no more coyotes than compared to when we had a covey per every 300 acres a couple decades ago.

I believe the #1 factor preventing a quail comeback is predation by hawks & owls, mainly the little Cooper's hawks. Nothing we can do about that.

 

[BamaHudson]

Deer are pretty resilient critters compared to ground nesting birds. Predation is an issue for sure. Not sold one way or the other on how baiting affects things. GA, AL, and MS all allow baiting and all have significantly higher deer population than TN. If someone chooses to put feed out, I think it would be wise to spread it over an area and to rotate spots rather than pouring one big pile in the same spot over and over. Doing it that way would be of similar risk to a standard food plot IMO. I do believe killing more does would do a lot of good in most places but its just hard to get folks to do that. Sort of like how everyone knows killing coyotes and raccoons is good but still aren't motivated to do it.

Reckon we'll see how it plays out but I do have more confidence in the deer population than I do quail or turkey.

 

[DoubleRidge]

The quail problem isn't a habitat problem. I've seen large landowners produce thousands of acres of quail habitat, but the quail never really bounce back. The quail problem is a predator problem. We used to trap and kill many of the quail predators. We no longer do.

Completely agree that predators are at the top of the list of issues for quail.
But habitat is the foundation to build from....without good habitat they dont even have a chance....clean Ag "fence to fence" farming is horrible for quail...while good habitat can help them hide and nest....What could ever be done about hawks is sadly an issue that will likely never be addressed.