Crops up now and then. Lez talk bout it.

[bowriter]

Every now and then the subject of using a guide comes up. Usually in a manner that would suggest it is less than what a "true hunter" would and most often one on TV.

So here is a scenario for the "Average Joe".

You have one week of vacation from quitting time Friday night until starting time Monday, a week later. You are going to hunt a 1,000 acre farm on the Republican River in NE. The hunt is free and you can hunt it DIY or guided. Free either way. It is a five day hunt, Mon-Fri.

1- You are a real hunter so you decided to go DIY. You leave work Friday with all your gear packed and drive all night and then some. You arrive Saturday but cannot access the property until noon Sunday. No scouting until Monday morning-it is called changeover day. Mon-Tue. you scout and hang stands. You have Wed-Fri. to hunt. You must be out by noon Saturday. Then you drive home. Maybe you are successfull, maybe not.

2-Sunday morning you get on a plane and fly out. The outfitter's 21-year old daughter, the one with shining, coal black hair and blazing green eyes picks you up at the airport. It is a 3-hour drive to Arapaho, the home base. You have a great dinner, sleep in your private room and get up Monday ready to hunt.

Your "guide" puts you on an ATV and you putt-putt through the woods to a tree with plenty of bright eyes. You get off and follow the clearly marked trail to your safe and comfortable stand. You may or may not see deer. At 11:30 you walk out and your "guide" picks you up.

Same deal that afternoon and for five days, many different stands. Maybe you kill a deer, maybe not no garauntee ever in deer hunting but you hunt five full days.

Maybe even the law requires a guide. For sure, there are some reading this that have no business in the mountains without a guide. I do not reccommend any first time elk hunter DIY.

Point is this: Yes, no question it is more satifying to do it all yourself...if you can. Due to time, laws and a variety of reasons, many can't. I cannot see how that makes them less of a hunter or why this comes up so often.

Discuss.

 

[Appalachian American]

...the Republican River.

I've been there. In Kansas.

 

[bowriter]

In KS,it is the Democratic River.

 

[landman]

I've
Hunted Alaska with a Guide- Great hunt- but he was a friend from here and had his own setup

Hunted Kansas with a Guide - a so so hunt

Hunted Eastern Colorado twice with the same outfitter- one Year was Great one year was not so good even though I tagged both years

Hunted New Mexico 3 times for Elk- 2 Great Hunts and it wasn't the Bulls I killed that made it so

Hunted Mexico with a Guide- Great Hunt


You hear it sooooo many times on this site were people dog hunters or "Pro's" hunting with a Guide...I wonder how many of those that complain have ever hunted several states away?
I've been blessed that I got to go on those hunts...but does it make me less of a Hunter? I have my answer and everyone has the rights to call me a lazy or poor hunter cause I went with a guide. But until they try it do they really know the answer?

 

[timberjack86]

If all I want is a kill I would research the guide and check with some of his previous hunters and see how much he really knows.This is assuming the guide checks out knows the area and deer movement patterns well.I think anyones chances are slighty better if you are with someone that knows the land and the deer. If I am just wanting to hunt and have an overall fun experience I would more than likely just do it myself.

 

[taximan]

I hunted in mexico as well, a full blown outfitted hunt, guide, driver, cook, etc.....it was the greatest adventure to date. its all about the adventure to me...seeing and experiencing new things, and incorporating hunting into it...on this hunt, the day after i killed my mule deer, my guide asked me if i wanted to spend the day with him as he took care of ranch duties..course all of this was in spanish so im not sure really what he asked me but the next day I spent with him on horse back checking fences and washouts in the sonoran desert....it was just like i imagined it would have happened in the old west...right down to the campfire lunch....no way i could have done that on a DIY hunt...but i now have another great memory that will last a lifetime..

kinda a cheesey analogy but....if you go out and enjoy a nice dinner at a fancy restaurant, does that make you less of an eater? you didnt prepare the meal but you did pick your fork up and inserted the food and chewed and swallowed....if you use a guide, you didnt hang stands or scout but you did sit still (or whatever method you happen to use), aim weapon, fire weapon, and hopefully connected.

every day we pay people to make our lives a little easier and im with BW, not so sure why people get fussy over a hunter using a guide....i will agree that a DIY can be more self satisfying.

 

[348Winchester]

If you lack something, whatever it may be, time, skill, confidence, research ability, or whatever reason you want to lay out there, then you need a guide.

In my own experience, when I was 27 I decided to hunt deer in Montana. That winter/spring I did my research and applied for the tag. I hunted block management lands. After hunting the rugged terrain of east Tennessee the rolling prairie of northeast Montana was relatively simple. I simply still hunted the coulees and checked out every piece of available cover. On the second day of the hunt I jumped a very nice buck out of a choke cherry patch and missed him clean with my scoped 270. I cased it and pulled out the model 94 30-30. On the sixth day a beautiful 10 point rolled at the bark of the little carbine as he tried to escape from a small copse of trees in the middle of a wide open space. I returned to the same area the following year and took another nice 10 point again with my 30-30 at 8 yards in a CRP field. By this time I had met two local farmers that agreed to be my landowner sponsors. In 99 I took a beautiful 5x5 Mule Deer in the Missouri Breaks. Neither of these farmers were hunters so they did not guide me. In 2000 I took a nice 4x3 mulie. Had I paid a guide I could not have afforded four back to back hunts that far away.

In 2001 I went to the Pioneer Mountains in southwest Montana to hunt black bear. Hunted spot and stalk and on the sixth day took a 240lb sow that I watched for a good while to be sure she had no cubs. Carried her 2 1/2 miles alongside Hell Roarin' Creek. It took me 7 1/2 hours to pack her out!

2002-2004 I hunted in the Clearwater Mountains of Idaho and took 4 more bears. 3 over bait and 1 spot and stalk. Again I did research before planning the hunt. In '02 I met a little gal working as a waitress at a diner and charmed my way into her home (amongst other things) and used her place as a part time base camp. That was fun!

On NONE of these hunts did I employ a guide. Only on the last year in Idaho did I not kill anything but I did pass up some small bears and one decent one with a crappy coat.

I am confident enough in my abilities to hunt most anywhere. All of these hunts were planned and carried out alone. My little waitress girlfriend did collect buckets of scrap for me to use as bait.

I just believe, it is my opinion, that good hunters do not need a guide. If you put in the work you will most likely experience success.

 

[348Winchester]

I might add that I asked the two farmers to be my landowner sponsors to enable me to get a guaranteed tag. I met them at a local bar and after striking up friendly conversation gained access to their lands. It did not cost me one penny unless you count the occaisional drinks I paid for! One let me sleep in his home and his wife was an excellent cook! I also helped him with some chores as he was an elderly gentleman and I wanted to help him out.

 

[Pursuit Hunter]

I went on a guided hunt once for a business event. Hated it. I lasted about 30 minutes in their ladder stand on the first afternoon before I got down to find my own place for the morning. The next morning they insisted I hunt another one of their stands, which I did for about another hour. The rest of the story is here http://www.pursuithunting.com/2007/08/o ... -hunt.html

I could care less about shooting something from a stand someone picked out for me. To me, hunting is about doing my own scouting and finding my own spot. Once I've done that, the rest is just shooting. I'm not knocking using a guide, just not my cup o tea.

I would like to hear more about the pretty little thing with the green eyes though. She any good at finding deer poop?

 

[baller_9]

Point is this: Yes, no question it is more satifying to do it all yourself...if you can. Due to time, laws and a variety of reasons, many can't. I cannot see how that makes them less of a hunter or why this comes up so often.

It's easy to sit back behind a computer and cast judgement on those that choose to hunt with an outfitter. I have found that most that have negitive comments against outfitters either 1) have never hunted with an outfitter 2) have all the time in the world to take off work, scout, drive and hunt till their hearts are content 3) can't afford an outfitter even if they they would love to hunt with one and choose to bash those that can afford to do so.

I just believe, it is my opinion, that good hunters do not need a guide. If you put in the work you will most likely experience success.

I believe you are missing BW's entire point. While I do agree that "if you put in the work you will most likely experience success", most do not have the time to put all that work into it. It sounds like you were very blessed to have the time to fully invest into what it takes to be successful by putting in your time. Most people don't own their own properties and between their families and jobs they have zero free time. One week out of the entire year is what many hunters have to maybe have one opportunity at a nice whitetail. Choosing to hunt with an outfitter doesn�t make them any less of a hunter � some guys are outstanding hunters that just don�t have the free time to scout and have a realistic chance at a shooter buck. Like BW mentioned, some areas require an outfitter.

Point is, maybe some shouldn't be so foolish to think that hunting with an outfitter makes an individual any less of a hunter. I'm sure many of them would trade places with those that are able to scout 60+ days a year.

 

[bowriter]

Baller hit my point dead on. Wheterh or not you use guide has no bearing on your abilities as hunter. Most would agree Chcuck Adams was pretty fair hunter. I would hazard to guess on 80% of his hunts he used a guide. I would also hazard to guess when he had the time he could dropped off anywhere for any game animal and he wouold be successfull.

When he had the time.

 

[Pursuit Hunter]

Baller hit my point dead on. Wheterh or not you use guide has no bearing on your abilities as hunter. Most would agree Chcuck Adams was pretty fair hunter. I would hazard to guess on 80% of his hunts he used a guide. I would also hazard to guess when he had the time he could dropped off anywhere for any game animal and he wouold be successfull.

When he had the time.

If killing the biggest/most game in the shortest amount of time is ones objective, then I can see the value of a guide. That's not important to me. I'm more interested in the process than the end result, as so eloquently stated by Jose Ortega y Gasset in my signature.

 

[bigtex]

I've done it both ways, with and without a guide and enjoyed the hunt either way. BTW some of the guided hunts were unsucesfull, and some of the self guided hunts were sucsesful. I don't doubt my hunting abilities, i've killed my fair share of deer, and "guided" my wife and daughter on productive hunts.
Where I live big bucks are few and far between, about the only way to even have a decent chance of laying eyes on a "good" buck is to hunt a WMA. WMA's and public land lost their appeal to me many years ago, I can hunt property around home and have people crawling all over me just like on the WMA's. No thanks!! At least on a guided hunt you will have an area to yourself to hunt.
Going guided also gives you an idea of the potential for that area for future DIY hunts and is a great way to get your "foot in the door."
The perfect scenario IMO is a semi guided hunt, a hunt where the landowner or whoever gives you a map and a general idea of where some good spots might be and leaves you to yourself to do the rest. I certainly don't need anyone to hold my hand while I sit on stand. I can field dress, quarter, butcher, cape and mount my own heads, without anyones assistance.

 

[AT Hiker]

In the WY wilderness areas you have to have a guide or resident willing to hunt with you, so when I draw my elk tag there I am going with an outfitter. Even if it wasnt a law I would, for certain areas. No way am I going solo into grizzly country for 5 plus days 10 plus miles off the road. Realistically it is not feasible for me to own pack animals (yes I could rent them) or the appropriate wall tents, etc. This of course is related to the "trophy" limited quota areas. DIY hunts for easy to draw or OTC tags are fun, and if you have the time are very worth it.

Now...I hunt areas in WY that are left over tag areas and I will tell you right now access to decent hunting ground is very limited. If you are limited on time you are better off paying a trespass fee. However, outfitters have a lot of the better ranches leased. So your back to square one. Here is an example;
Quality trespass fee for a private trophy managed ranch for antelope: $500 (yes some are cheaper and higher, but this is a good figure)
Lodging/Food for 3 days: $300 (cheaper if you tent it, but realistically most will hotel it at least half the time)
Thats $800...you can find a trophy antelope hunt for a high average of $1800. SO a DIY would save you $1000, but a good outfitter is going to have a better lease, in most cases, they will know where the trophy animals are. If you have never hunted a particular species, they are a extremely valuable asset. Most novice antelope hunters can not tell the difference between a 80" or a 60" goat. Going with an outfitter would also take a lot of stress out of the equation too, unless spending money stresses you out in which case you should just stay home and work!

Me...I have a little more time now so I choose DIY but I have hunted with an outfitter and loved it (not field dressing the animal is a plus too)! It was a vacation, a vacation where I got to hunt. Its all relative, and I could care less.

Now, those that go on guided hunts and/or hunt the high fence areas and claim to be a great hunter is another story. Canadian high fence elk hunting is not the same as wild pressured Rocky Mountain Elk. Same as high fenced or large leased trophy managed whitetail properties, not knocking them per say, just knocking those that hunt it and claim to be a "pro". I can catch bass all day long in a pond, but not claiming I could be a B.A.S.S. pro by any means.

 

[Winchester]

I much prefer the DIY route and heres why! I enjoy the scouting of new land, learning how it lays, figuring out where and how I think the deer will use it. I like nothing better than searching for the sign I need, then having to figure out where I need the stands, what trees to hang them in for the cover and wind directions, etc, etc. All this is a huge part of the hunt for me!
I dont feel like I have done anything but be a trigger man when someone else has doen ALL the work!
While I have no problem with those who use a guide, and I have done so myself in the past, which is why I feel the way I do about this subject, I will take a shorter DIY hunt any time I can.
I am also talking deer and Elk hunting here, both of which I feel like I know enough to hold my own and trust my decisions as good as anybody!
Now if I were to decide to go North and hunt a Polar bear, YES I would hire a guide as I know absolutely nothing about how to hunt them, same for say Sheep in the mtns, Im lost!
I definitely take in to account a hunts success when a guide is used or is not!
It all boils down to what you want from the experience? If all that matters is your succesful and have an animal to show for it, by all means hire a guide! If you are more concerned with self satisfaction and like a challenge, definitely DIY!

 

[W.Seay]

Every now and then the subject of using a guide comes up. Usually in a manner that would suggest it is less than what a "true hunter" would and most often one on TV.

So here is a scenario for the "Average Joe".

You have one week of vacation from quitting time Friday night until starting time Monday, a week later. You are going to hunt a 1,000 acre farm on the Republican River in NE. The hunt is free and you can hunt it DIY or guided. Free either way. It is a five day hunt, Mon-Fri.

1- You are a real hunter so you decided to go DIY. You leave work Friday with all your gear packed and drive all night and then some. You arrive Saturday but cannot access the property until noon Sunday. No scouting until Monday morning-it is called changeover day. Mon-Tue. you scout and hang stands. You have Wed-Fri. to hunt. You must be out by noon Saturday. Then you drive home. Maybe you are successfull, maybe not.

2-Sunday morning you get on a plane and fly out. The outfitter's 21-year old daughter, the one with shining, coal black hair and blazing green eyes picks you up at the airport. It is a 3-hour drive to Arapaho, the home base. You have a great dinner, sleep in your private room and get up Monday ready to hunt.

Your "guide" puts you on an ATV and you putt-putt through the woods to a tree with plenty of bright eyes. You get off and follow the clearly marked trail to your safe and comfortable stand. You may or may not see deer. At 11:30 you walk out and your "guide" picks you up.

Same deal that afternoon and for five days, many different stands. Maybe you kill a deer, maybe not no garauntee ever in deer hunting but you hunt five full days.

Maybe even the law requires a guide. For sure, there are some reading this that have no business in the mountains without a guide. I do not reccommend any first time elk hunter DIY.

Point is this: Yes, no question it is more satifying to do it all yourself...if you can. Due to time, laws and a variety of reasons, many can't. I cannot see how that makes them less of a hunter or why this comes up so often.

Discuss.

I agree with you! Hunt smarter not harder!

 

[Winchester]

Point is this: Yes, no question it is more satifying to do it all yourself...if you can. Due to time, laws and a variety of reasons, many can't. I cannot see how that makes them less of a hunter or why this comes up so often.

While I have no problem with those who choose the guide route, isnt the answer quite obvious?

Which takes more skill and knowledge to be consistently succesful? The trigger man killing what has been found for him by another skilled outdoorsman, or the DIY guy who did it all himself from start to finish, to be succesful?
Not really hard to figure out!
And again I have no beef with those who like the guide route, and I have and may use one again, in situations where I feel I would benefit from one. I wont however pretend to have done much more than pull the trigger when doing so! But thats ok, im fine with that as others im sure are too.

 

[Pursuit Hunter]

Point is this: Yes, no question it is more satifying to do it all yourself...if you can. Due to time, laws and a variety of reasons, many can't. I cannot see how that makes them less of a hunter or why this comes up so often.

While I have no problem with those who choose the guide route, isnt the answer quite obvious?

Which takes more skill and knowledge to be consistently succesful? The trigger man killing what has been found for him by another skilled outdoorsman, or the DIY guy who did it all himself from start to finish, to be succesful?
Not really hard to figure out!
And again I have no beef with those who like the guide route, and I have and may use one again, in situations where I feel I would benefit from one. I wont however pretend to have done much more than pull the trigger when doing so! But thats ok, im fine with that as others im sure are too.

Seems to me that one's perspective on whether using a guide lessens the amount of skill required may have to do with the way each person hunts. Those who like to hunt regularly from fixed locations probably don't see much of a difference. Those who like to move around based on their own scouting probably do.

 

[chewymalone]

Using a guide doesn't make me any better or worse of a hunter than I already am. I use a guide when I go out west with my Dad, primarily because his health is such that it's not smart for him to hike several miles a day and camp for a week at elevation.

The unfortunate thing I've witnessed in WY over the past 15 years is the rapid transition of access to private land from trespass fees (or if you were lucky free access) to almost exclusively leases to outfitters. While there are some nice animals on public land for those who are willing to work hard and hunt where others won't hunt, I think most would agree that the reduced hunting pressure on private land leads to better quality of game and a more enjoyable hunt.

For those that don't want to hunt in a pumpkin patch out west, sometimes a guide is the only option.

 

[chewymalone]

I would choose to go alone.

 

[Pursuit Hunter]

I'd still choose the pretty little thing with the green eyes from the airport.

 

[bowriter]

I have always preferred to do my own scouting and hang my own stands. Still do. However, anyone with any sense quickly realizes that this requires time.

For the average, non-resident hunter, that time does not exist. They work jobs and cannot be gone for as long as this usually requires. Therefore, if one wants to scout and hang stands with the understanding that this will reduce the number of days they can actually hunt, then a DIY is the way to go.

On a whitetail hunt, there is little actual guiding. The "guide" is just a chaffeur. The scouting and stand hanging was done when it should be...weeks before the actual hunt. Therefore, the "hunter" arrives and gets to hunt for the majority of his vaction.

We all know that often, no matter how good we are, we hang stands in the wrong place and have to move them. Sometimes more than once. On the guided hunt, if it is a good one, that is done for the hunter while he is hunting another stand.

In other words, the activities that many of us enjoy, take time away from actually hunting. So the decision to go guided or DIY is not and should not be one of skill level but enjoyment level.

I spent most of the morning, this morning, tweaking a couple stands. I enjoyed it, I have the time to do it. But, I could not have done it on a hunt 600-miles from home. And if I was hunting 600-miles from home, I would have had to do it at an expense to not only my hunting time but with no time for the stands to "cool off" before hutning them.

 

[bowriter]

Ah, hilep, I guess all I was trying to point iout is that just because someone uses a guide, that is no reflection on their hunting skill.

They may do so simply as a matter of time constraint, desire to hunt a specific area to which access may only be obtained by using a guide, legality or need.

 

[348Winchester]

Go back and reread my statement, "If you lack something" . For some that is time and for some it is skill, for some it may be confidence. The "average Joe" to quote Bowriter is just what he said.... average. By very definition, the "average Joe" would most definately NEED a guide. His skills are only average. Some hunters are better than average and some are worse.

Hunting is my passion, therefore, I have given myself to it. It has taken many years to hone the skills to be confident, consistent, and successful. Because of this, I do not need a guide and will not choose to hunt an area that requires one by law.

I do look upon those that call themselves "professionals" as less of a hunter "IF" they use guides! They hold themselves out to be experts. A professional does indeed receive pay for what they do. They are paid for their expertise. IF they are masters, then they do not need a guide.

I receive pay in my chosen profession. I do not need a guide to help me with my job.

 

[bowriter]

I'm not singling you out. It is a general topic that comes around regularly.