Arrow Flinger...( Pure attraction ??)

[deerchaser007]

Hey man,.. i seen were you are planning on using this mix by whitetail institute. I have mostly started using my own mixes and got away from the big name seed companies. BUT,.. imperial products are at the top of the game besides tecomate chicory. Would you mind keeping me updated on your opinion of this product??
How big of spot are you putting it in?this is my first question..........

The main thing i'm looking at in that mix is the winter peas. I have never found a winter pea that can withstand the early grazing the deer put on it when its planted on a spot less than 2 acres. SO,.. if you are planting in a spot less than 2 acres,.. keep me updated on the growth of the winter peas in that mix.

If i can find a mix that the winterpeas will establish,.. i'll go back to it in my 1 acre plot. The problem i have is they will not let it establish,.. so it provides no benefit to my herd,.. or my hunting.

Also,.. keep me updated on the initial planting of the product. The oats and the winter pea are larger seeds than the brassicas and really require different planting depths. This was also a concern for me in that mix.

I would appreciate it.........DC007

 

[JohnnyDollar]

DC we planted australian winter peas mived with winter wheat. The peas withstood the grazing and killed a number of deer in the plot. One of the things we did for the plot was put triple 13 down first then we put down 0-20-20 or 0-15-15 for the peas. The peas don't need the nitrogen they produce their own. The triple 13 is to jump start the wheat, then the 0-20-20 or 0-15-15 is to help the peas. Thats what we did and it worked for us.

 

[Arrow Flinger]

You think that Tecomate Chicory is better? Its a commodity seed, unlike Whitetail's. Whitetails is more palatable and easier for a deer to digest.

Whitetail sells the Pure Attraction in 1/2 acre size bags, and i prob will plant 1 acre. As far as the winter peas they will prob be the first thing that the deer eat and be gone before the first frost, so it may be hard to establish a small stand of just the winter peas. I know you said that you use your own mixes and I used to as well, but you have to remember that all commdity seeds were based on research done from COWS not deer, thats why I am such a big fan of the Whitetail Institutes products, because they do the research on deer and deer only. Thats also why they are the only company that has their own seeds and not commodity seeds, no other company can say that.

And as far as planting: disk your field, fertilize, seed, and lightly drag or harrow, and you should be ready for rain.

If you have any questions feel free to ask.

 

[deerchaser007]

sirhuntalot,.. how many acres did you plant?? I know how to plant it,.. i just can't keep the deer from wiping it out before it starts good. Thats in a 1 acre plot.

Arrow flinger,... tecomate chicory is a totally different strain of chicory than most chicories. Most chicories is just a kickoff of puna ,.. tecomate is not. Tecomate chicory is also very palatable and easily digested,.. very similiar to whitetails. BUT,.. whitetail's chicory produces more protein. In which,.. don't mean much to me because a deer body will only hold about 16 to 18 percent protein anyway. The rest is only fertilizer because it comes out the rear of the deer.

As far as commodity seed verses seed for deer. I've planted both,.... and my deer don't seem to favor one over the other. I tested just about everything under the sun on a 1/4 acre test plot when i started out and there is no difference in preference from the 3.00 a pound ladino clover at the co-op verses the 7 .00 a pound clover from whitetail institute. SO,.. i figured i would save my money since i can't tell a difference and my deer don't prefer 1 over the other.

When you plant that 1 acre plot ,PLEASE,. keep me informed on the winter peas. I'll plant that mix if the peas will withstand the grazing. Especially early.

 

[gil1]

Tecomate chicory is also very palatable and easily digested,.. very similiar to whitetails.

Yeah, whitetails are tasty! :grin:

 

[Arrow Flinger]

Well the protein levels that you say are just fertilizer, thats not completely true cause commodity type seeds dont offer the high prcentage of protein like Whitetail's. You have to remember that a deer (bucks) has to take care of its body nutrition first and foremost before it can benefit the antler prodution, and does are healthier and produce healthier and stronger fawns. So if you plant better type forages you benefit the overall health level of your deer heard (does and bucks).

Don't get me wrong im not putting down Tecomate's chicory or pushing Whitetail's, just going by the facts that I learned in school, and the lessons learned from planting food plots and studying deer nutrition. I just want everyone to have the best deer heard that they possible can own their hunting grounds as well as our grate state, we have so much potential as a state.

 

[deerchaser007]

Protein levels in forage is dictated by several elements. Rainfall, fertilization,ph level,soil type, and the type of seed.
Here is a few levels from TN soils using just regular seed , in established food plots. NOTE,.. time of year collected tells alot about the levels. Levels will change throughout the growing season of the plant.
seed type - protein level - digestibility- date-
arrowleaf - 31.0 - 82.8- 4-23-
crimson - 28.4 - 82.7 - 4-23-
ladino- 31.5 - 79.7 - 4-02-
red clover- 23.7 - 70.1 - 6-30-
oats- 26.5 - 70.5 - 3-22-
wheat - 24.9 - 69.6 - 3-22-
winter pea- 28.0 - 78.4 - 4-23-
chicory- 25.4 - 74.4 - 3-04-
rape - 32.9 - 87.7 - 7-01-

All these were collected by Dr Graig Harper from the university of TN ,.. and all were planted in TN. These are not big name seed companies produces these numbers,.. just regular ole seed you can buy at any seed store. AND,.. with knowing anything over 16 to 18 percent is wasted out the rear of the deer,.. i just can't see spending more on that big name seed stuff.
By the way,... the publication this came from is Growing and managing successful food plots for wildlife in the mid south available through the UT extension office. You should check it out,... plus,... if you ever get a chance to sit in on one of Dr Harpers seminars you should really check it out.

Please don't think i'm questioning your knowledge of the subject,.. i'm not trying to step on any toes.

By the way,... i use tecomate chicory because it is more preferred over the other chicories on my farm. Protein levels and digestible nutrient don't mean crap if they won't eat it. I only plant stuff that is preferred on my farm,.. plus,.. will withstand the grazing and produce a high amount of forage. I don't have alot of acres to plant ,.. so what i do have i need to work and last and produce. I was never able to do that with most big name seed companies seed blends.

 

[Anderson]

I'll offer two cents' worth here.

There is truth in all the points in this discussion, though ruminant nutrition is complicated and we get onto shaky ground when we offer simplified statements. There is a lot of rhetoric on deer nutrition floating around this 'industry' these days. BUT from a practical standpoint, you guys hit on the important stuff.

Deer can 'hold' more than 18% protein; depends on the situation. If the diet is low in protein, then a limited amount of 25%+ protein stuff will be very well utilized. If the rest of the diet is already high in protein, then more won't help. Excess protein (nitrogen) does leave the animal via urine and feces. If you fed a deer only turnip leaves at 30% protein, he would waste an awful lot of it and work his kidneys pretty hard. But of course deer don't eat just one thing all day.

Cattle vs. Deer: there are differences for sure. But just because a company focuses on deer vs cattle, does not guarantee their stuff is any better. Know what I mean? Depends on how they do their comparisons. WI seems to have a pretty good research program but I've not seen any of their work first hand. All I know of it is in their sales-pitch-laden magazine articles. Still, I expect their seeds are very good. I would not be afraid to plant seed from WI or Tecomate, and have used both. Since we don't really know much about their research results, your choice depends on which people you trust.

My guess is that if we did a plot comparison program between WI, Tecomate, and Puna chicory in ten locations in each of ten states, results would vary by location.

Nutrient content depends on the factors given by deerchaser, from Craig Harper's excellent work. Time of year (or maturity of the plant) is indeed a very big deal. The same clover plant that tests 35% protein in April may be 15% protein in July. Genetics is part of it, but maturity is often a bigger part. Also depends on how you sample the plants of course. Deer are notorious nibblers, and their browsing will vary depending how hungry they are and what other feed sources are available nearby.

Deer are not likely to eat orchardgrass, but it can also test over 30% protein in the early spring. As one of you said, it doesn't matter much if they don't eat it.

 

[JohnnyDollar]

DC we were planting plots ranging from 1/2 ac. to 8 ac. we had two plots that were real big the rest were 1/2-2 ac.

 

[deerchaser007]

DC we were planting plots ranging from 1/2 ac. to 8 ac. we had two plots that were real big the rest were 1/2-2 ac.

thats alot of plots. no wonder you ain't seeing no wipeouts with that winter pea.