Stud 2.5 year old?

TheLBLman

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What do y'all think?
I think this buck is unlikely to survive this year's deer season.

In most the places I hunt, a top-end 2 1/2 or 3 1/2 will roam around and get shot, in part because their antlers appear larger than they'll score, due to the relatively small bodies of 2 1/2 & 3 1/2's (compared to mature bucks).

He is most probably either 2 1/2 or 3 1/2.
I'm torn as to which.
 

Andy S.

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I think this buck is unlikely to survive this year's deer season.

In most the places I hunt, a top-end 2 1/2 or 3 1/2 will roam around and get shot, in part because their antlers appear larger than they'll score, due to the relatively small bodies of 2 1/2 & 3 1/2's (compared to mature bucks).
Same outcome for most places I hunt. Top end 2.5s and 3.5s who like to roam (most of them), and show themselves during daylight in Nov/Dec rarely make it. They often "disappear" because they are in someone's freezer by December 1.
 

TheLBLman

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Same outcome for most places I hunt. Top end 2.5s and 3.5s who like to roam (most of them), and show themselves during daylight in Nov/Dec rarely make it. They often "disappear" because they are in someone's freezer by December 1.
And by comparison, below-averaged antlered 3 1/2's will commonly be passed up by multiple hunters, and live to full maturity (in these same most places I hunt).
 

TheLBLman

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If you can break that cycle - best young bucks killed, worst young bucks passed - you can do wonders for a property.
THAT has been my single-biggest challenge in trying to produce more above-average antlered older bucks on a relatively large property in TN. Most of the truly top-end antlered bucks get killed as 2 1/2's. Those that survive 2 1/2, then typically get heavily, specifically "targeted" as 3 1/2's, and are killed then.

Should one of these survive beyond 3 1/2, the number of individual hunters specifically targeting that buck is often double-digits, and these hunters may be spread over thousands of acres, many 2 to 3 miles apart, many thinking that particular buck mostly hangs around in just the area they're hunting (a few hundred acres or less of several thousand contiguous acres).

Even with thousands of contiguous acres (more lightly hunted than the surrounding areas), it has thus far been a near impossible feat to see a top-end antlered young buck survive to maturity. Never mind 5 1/2-yr-old & older bucks are not uncommon in these same areas, but they'll typically have a 6 to 8-pt narrow mainframe rack with short tines. As their body sizes become larger, their racks look relatively smaller, and many hunters may be giving them a pass even though they can be fully mature bucks.

If you think a highway, a subdivision, or even the Cumberland River is a travel barrier, think again. Such barriers often restrict deer movement much of the year, but may mean little during about a 30-day period when the most hunters are afield hunting the hardest.
 

BSK

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THAT has been my single-biggest challenge in trying to produce more above-average antlered older bucks on a relatively large property in TN. Most of the truly top-end antlered bucks get killed as 2 1/2's. Those that survive 2 1/2, then typically get heavily, specifically "targeted" as 3 1/2's, and are killed then.

Should one of these survive beyond 3 1/2, the number of individual hunters specifically targeting that buck is often double-digits, and these hunters may be spread over thousands of acres, many 2 to 3 miles apart, many thinking that particular buck mostly hangs around in just the area they're hunting (a few hundred acres or less of several thousand contiguous acres).

Even with thousands of contiguous acres (more lightly hunted than the surrounding areas), it has thus far been a near impossible feat to see a top-end antlered young buck survive to maturity. Never mind 5 1/2-yr-old & older bucks are not uncommon in these same areas, but they'll typically have a 6 to 8-pt narrow mainframe rack with short tines. As their body sizes become larger, their racks look relatively smaller, and many hunters may be giving them a pass even though they can be fully mature bucks.

If you think a highway, a subdivision, or even the Cumberland River is a travel barrier, think again. Such barriers often restrict deer movement much of the year, but may mean little during about a 30-day period when the most hunters are afield hunting the hardest
We hunt our property HARD. Much harder than neighboring properties are hunted. But I'm sure glad we don't hunt in a high-pressure environment like you describe. We definitely see a few top-end 2 1/2s get taken, but have no problem getting top-end 3 1/2+ bucks another year older. On 500 acres, each year we usually have at least one mature buck pushing the 150 mark, and a couple of bucks in the 130-140 range.
 

Andy S.

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We hunt our property HARD. Much harder than neighboring properties are hunted. But I'm sure glad we don't hunt in a high-pressure environment like you describe. We definitely see a few top-end 2 1/2s get taken, but have no problem getting top-end 3 1/2+ bucks another year older. On 500 acres, each year we usually have at least one mature buck pushing the 150 mark, and a couple of bucks in the 130-140 range.
Bold text is likely doing more for your property than any "management" can. Low pressure areas are golden, just so hard to come by in my lifetime, and even harder to hold on to for any length of time.
 

BSK

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Bold text is likely doing more for your property than any "management" can. Low pressure areas are golden, just so hard to come by in my lifetime, and even harder to hold on to for any length of time.
The amazing thing is, it's the entire part of the county I hunt in. Used to be, open day of MZ or gun, sounded like a war. Now, if I hear 5 gunshots the entire opening weekend of gun season, that's pretty busy. Hunting pressure in the whole area is WAY down over the last 20 years.
 

megalomaniac

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There are also the handful of bucks that don't roam much. Those are the ones we try to raise for slaughter at maturity. And if you really want to drive yourself crazy, try letting one of those non roamers reach 6.5... they will drive you crazy showing up 3-4x per week at night on cameras, yet you NEVER see them in daylight, even though they are there. I still haven't figured out how they do that trick.
 

TheLBLman

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Hunting pressure in the whole area is WAY down over the last 20 years.
I think that is the case in most areas, BUT . . . .
SELECTIVE TARGETING
of the top-end young bucks
is WAY UP compared to 20 years ago.

I do see a certain segment of hunters somewhat shifting more to age-based than antler-based "targeting" of the bucks they choose to kill, at least over the past few years, but it's a relatively small shift.

Another thing, compared to 20 years ago and further back,
today's hunters are MUCH more "efficient" as hunters.

Decades ago, particularly when many hunters were still carrying lever-action 30/30s with iron sights, we experienced not only hunters using less effective weapons, but these hunters' inexperience led many to take lots of very low-probability shots.

Hopefully, almost gone are the days of hunters emptying their gun in the direction of a white flag waving thru the woods.
 

BSK

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And if you really want to drive yourself crazy, try letting one of those non roamers reach 6.5... they will drive you crazy showing up 3-4x per week at night on cameras, yet you NEVER see them in daylight, even though they are there. I still haven't figured out how they do that trick.
I've generally got at least one 6 1/2 year-old buck using my place every year. Yet in all the years we've been photographing them, we've killed a grand total of just one 6 1/2 year-old buck. They are amazingly hard to see and kill, even when they exist.
 

Gronk

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Bucks can REALLY fill out between now and November. Here's a 3 1/2 year-old buck from mid-September to late October from last year. In the picture on the left (mid-September), his legs look really long in comparison to his chest depth, and his neck is very narrow. But in the picture on the right (late October), he's a filled out stud.
I wouldn't think a deer would change that much in a months time
 

Shed Hunter

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I wouldn't think a deer would change that much in a months time
I've seen some pretty significant weight gain on bucks particularly before the rut and after the rut ends. Before the rut testosterone rises and it's like a body builder on steroids. During the rut they lean up and aren't eating as much. A lot of stress on them if they're very rut active. After the rut in the winter (especially if a good winter food source is available) they'll pack on a lot of fat
 

redblood

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Heres a 2.5 yr old buck that just showed up. I not only have to keep him safe this yr, but the next 2 seasons as well. At 5.5 he will be on the menu!
 

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BSK

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I wouldn't think a deer would change that much in a months time
As TheLBLMan posted, bucks put on a MASSIVE amount of muscle in October, leading up to the rut. Their testosterone levels are about 10 times what a teenage human male has in his blood. Hunters used to talk about how bucks' necks "swell" for the rut. Their necks don't swell; that's pure muscle. And post-rut, bucks can lose weight even faster due to exertions during the rut and lack of time to eat. A mature buck can lose 30% of his body weight in a month. That's a 200 lb mature buck just before the rut dropping to 140 lbs in a month to a month and a half.

An example: Below is a buck I had been after for a couple of years. He is 5 1/2 in the below picture. I would put his weight in this picture at somewhere around 210-220 lbs live weight. The picture was taken October 12th. When I finally killed that buck Dec. 31st, very much post-rut, he only weighed 158 lbs live. He hardly looked like the same buck body-wise.
 

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