What makes the pre 64 Winchester 30-30 more expensive than later models? Just curious.
Question about Pre 64 Win 30-30
- Thread starter MUP
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Huntaholic
Well-Known Member
Receivers and actions arent cast, pot metal, or tin in the pre 64s.
My understanding is craftsmanship is better. They were cheapened up by the company in later years.
Pre 64 to me means Winchester changed from controlled round feed, Mauser, to push feed in bolt actions. I'm not sure it means anything concerning model 94.
On the lever guns, some forged steel parts were replaced with stamped sheet metal. Steel Butt plate was replaced with plastic.
Mainly though the expense comes from what people believe.
The model 70 of today is better than a pre-64. But some folks will still pay more for a pre-64.
Mainly though the expense comes from what people believe.
The model 70 of today is better than a pre-64. But some folks will still pay more for a pre-64.
I have a late model 70 Winchester in 300 WSM and it's controlled round feed.
Gav-n-Tn
Well-Known Member
Winchester hired someone from the automotive world who came in and brought Detroit style assembly line manufacturing processes into play. Prior to 1964, they had used old school craftsmanship and hand fitting. People could not digest those changes and never have. Remember when Remington bought Marlin?
I have a late Model 70 Super Grade in .243. I'd put it up against anything made back then. But it won't change some folks minds about the value.
There are "collectors" and then are collectors. I'm the kind of collector that shoots my guns. To me, "collecting" is having what I want, and having an example of it that can put a round in the center of the bull when I pull the trigger, if I do my part. "Never fired" and perfect condition in the box, is another type collector. But they aren't buying those obviously used pre-64's. Unless they are going to flip them.
pre 64 94s are a whole different world from post 64 94s, the bad ones are from 1965 to 1977. 1978 on were better but not near the gun the pre 64 are.
Gav-n-Tn
Well-Known Member
Personally, I'm just not buying that Winchester started putting out junk from 1964 onwards. But, try convincing Marlin fans that the Remlin guns are on par with the JM ones. Try doing the same with Bushmaster fans, etc etc
I bought mine because I was told it would outshoot my Remington 700 VLS. I said "BS!" and laughed.Mine is just about my favorite deer rifle now.Even tho it's way Overkill
So I bought it. Never did do the comparison though, and probably never will.Gav-n-Tn
Well-Known Member
I'll say this about the Remlin situation. I've been in the "business" for a day or two. I've met plenty of reps and some owners. One of them that worked for Remington was there when they took over Marlin. ACCORDING TO HIM, the manufacturing equipment that Marlin was using was -generally speaking- well used and pretty worn. Remington upgraded the machinery to bring things back into tight tolerances.
I'm a retired Toolmaker. I spent 10 years in the 90's being asked at trade shows "Can your machines hold .00005? (50 millionths) And me asking "Can you measure 50 millionths?"
We have the most accurate advanced manufacturing capabilities the world has ever seen. It's amazing what the machines of today can do. Unfortunately, what we are lacking in, at some companies, is the people that can run those machines. You need Machinist's, not machine operators. And that's tough to find. Most places can't hire them, they have to create them.
Gav-n-Tn
Well-Known Member
The machinist trade runs in the blood of my dad's side of the family. I've had uncles that were master machinists. One used to get called in frequently -after retirement- to do manual setups.I'm a retired Toolmaker. I spent 10 years in the 90's being asked at trade shows "Can your machines hold .00005? (50 millionths) And me asking "Can you measure 50 millionths?"
We have the most accurate advanced manufacturing capabilities the world has ever seen. It's amazing what the machines of today can do. Unfortunately, what we are lacking in, at some companies, is the people that can run those machines. You need Machinist's, not machine operators. And that's tough to find. Most places can't hire them, they have to create them.
I have plenty of opinions about the Winchester pre-64 saga. I will use this analogy: Imagine going to the auto parts store and buying any part. Then, getting it home and having to hand fit it to work on your car. Nobody would tolerate that. But, for some reason, people accept hand fitting firearms and revel in the nostalgia of old school craftsmanship. I get that. The problem is that it drives the price of an item like that through the roof. And that's what most people aren't willing to tolerate. It's hard to have your cake and eat it too sometimes.
A lot of that hand fitting was because we didn't have the ability to produce consistent parts to the tolerances we do today. They didn't have Wire and Sinker EDM's or CNC grinders.
Nostalgia is a great thing. But I don't think any of us want to go back to labor intensive jobs that require a high skill level. As you say, we wouldn't be able to buy the product. But we still see some of that today. We see people paying $10K $15K for rifles. I wouldn't do that, but if they have the money, and they think those thousands of dollars can help them put that round in the center of that bull, more power to them.
.000005.
Is that your Group size?.000005.
Man don't I wish!
