Why high?

[TboneD]

So I've been shooting the last month or so and thought I'd gotten my form down fairly well. Twenty yd and thirty yd pins pretty consistent, and thought I'd nailed down my 40 yd pin pretty good the other day. Just a while ago, with the sun going down, shot great at 20 and 30, but was shooting pretty high at 40. What gives? I used black tape to sight in, and thought all was dialed in pretty good. Do any of you guys ever see any patterns with group changes and tape vs dots, or if the time of day ever matters any? Any ideas??


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[TboneD]

Bet your form is off ever so slightly at 40yds today.. next time you shoot make your first shot at 40yds

It's gotta be. And the funny thing is I WAS shooting a little low before sighting in the 40 yd pin the other day. In other words, when done, I was really surprised at my pin gap between the 30 and 40 yd pins....wider than it had been. Thanks, Eric. Will do.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Crow Terminator]

Yes on the question about groups and tape vs dots.

I will not set a pin or yardage mark by shooting at dots. It is much better to set yardage via a horizontal piece of tape. I got to where I would use zip ties placed horizontally with tacks. Whether the person realizes it or not, they will hold their pin on a dot different than they do on a long horizontal piece of tape...particularly if the dot is larger diameter.

 

[TboneD]

Yes on the question about groups and tape vs dots.

I will not set a pin or yardage mark by shooting at dots. It is much better to set yardage via a horizontal piece of tape. I got to where I would use zip ties placed horizontally with tacks. Whether the person realizes it or not, they will hold their pin on a dot different than they do on a long horizontal piece of tape...particularly if the dot is larger diameter.

So why use tape if we hold our pin on it differently than a dot?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[bowhunter163]

Yes on the question about groups and tape vs dots.

I will not set a pin or yardage mark by shooting at dots. It is much better to set yardage via a horizontal piece of tape. I got to where I would use zip ties placed horizontally with tacks. Whether the person realizes it or not, they will hold their pin on a dot different than they do on a long horizontal piece of tape...particularly if the dot is larger diameter.

So why use tape if we hold our pin on it differently than a dot?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

When sighting in your vertical pin adjustment you shouldn't be worried about where you are aiming left and right . This is why the piece of tape helps so much . Because you are focusing on staying on the horizontal target vs. trying to hold vertically and horizontally on a dot . You get a much more accurate judge of your pin being set correctly .

 

[Buzzard Breath]

I learn something new everyday. Great info.

 

[LanceS4803]

Interesting. Going to try this today.

 

[TboneD]

Yes on the question about groups and tape vs dots.

I will not set a pin or yardage mark by shooting at dots. It is much better to set yardage via a horizontal piece of tape. I got to where I would use zip ties placed horizontally with tacks. Whether the person realizes it or not, they will hold their pin on a dot different than they do on a long horizontal piece of tape...particularly if the dot is larger diameter.

So why use tape if we hold our pin on it differently than a dot?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

When sighting in your vertical pin adjustment you shouldn't be worried about where you are aiming left and right . This is why the piece of tape helps so much . Because you are focusing on staying on the horizontal target vs. trying to hold vertically and horizontally on a dot . You get a much more accurate judge of your pin being set correctly .

Sure. That's why I've been sighting in with tape. That wasn't my question, though.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Crow Terminator]

^^ And that right there is why I don't post much any more. Try to help answer a question and then...

 

[bowhunter163]

Sure. That's why I've been sighting in with tape. That wasn't my question, though.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

That was exactly your question . The difference in holding your pin on a dot is that your trying to hold it vertically and horizontally on the dot . And with a piece of tape you aren't worried about left to right .
That is what is meant by "you aim differently at a dot"

 

[bowhunter163]

^^ And that right there is why I don't post much any more. Try to help answer a question and then...

Exactly .... The place isn't the same anymore .

 

[UTGrad]

Good info on the tape. Never thought about that and makes perfect sense.

 

[Andy S.]

Good info on the tape. Never thought about that and makes perfect sense.

x2

 

[Andy S.]

^^ And that right there is why I don't post much any more. Try to help answer a question and then...

Exactly .... The place isn't the same anymore .

I hope both of you continue to post. I have learned, and continue to learn more about archery from you two and TNDeerGuy than I could read and learn on my own in a lifetime. Continue helping others and don't let a few ungrateful souls run you off. There are bunches of us who love reading about your experiences and tricks, such as this. Thanks for all of your insight over the years.

 

[UTGrad]

JMO but this site is not remotely as trashy as Archery Talk. AT has become appalling. You post a question and several douche bags come back with insulting posts.

 

[bowhunter163]

JMO but this site is not remotely as trashy as Archery Talk. AT has become appalling. You post a question and several douche bags come back with insulting posts.

It is definitely not as bad as AT .

 

[Crow Terminator]

I quit posting on Archery Talk for more or less the same reason. I only go there to look at the classifieds every now and again if there is something I am looking for or if I am needing to sell something. I had quit posting here for right at a year or so and only just recently made a couple posts. I guess it's time to go back lurking in the shadows.

I'm not a Pro archer, but I have noticed that you don't see many, if any, Pro's posting on any of the archery forums. If I had to guess why, it would be along the lines of what happened above. Somebody posts something asking a question or seeking help, and they probably chimed in with some good solid advice/help...and then the one needing help comes back and argues with them, or a dozen or so others too. So they steer clear of forums. I learned more in about 20 mins of talking to Open Pro shooter Dan McCarthy about setting up bows than I have in YEARS of anything else.

 

[Tennessee Lead]

JMO but this site is not remotely as trashy as Archery Talk. AT has become appalling. You post a question and several douche bags come back with insulting posts.

Hard to even visit because of this
It's bad there

Sent from the barrel of a model 70 at 3300 fps

 

[UTGrad]

I think what makes TNDeer better than AT is we are only a couple degrees of separation on here. We either personally know folks in real life on here or know somebody that knows you. That kinda keeps the behavior somewhat in check cause you might see that person at a local shoot.

On AT some dude in California or Wisconsin is safe saying whatever smart azz comment he can cause you'll never cross paths.

 

[RidgeRunner13]

JMO but this site is not remotely as trashy as Archery Talk. AT has become appalling. You post a question and several douche bags come back with insulting posts.

I couldn't agree with you more. I posted a question about my form on there and the whole threaded turned into bashing people who ask for form advice.

 

[UTGrad]

A couple years ago when I started shooting a hinge I posted some form pics. I understand constructive criticism but some of those losers were straight up insulting. One guy that gave me a laundry list of what was wrong with my form posted a form pic himself not long after and his form was nothing like what he was "coaching" me.

 

[TboneD]

Yes on the question about groups and tape vs dots.

I will not set a pin or yardage mark by shooting at dots. It is much better to set yardage via a horizontal piece of tape. I got to where I would use zip ties placed horizontally with tacks. Whether the person realizes it or not, they will hold their pin on a dot different than they do on a long horizontal piece of tape...particularly if the dot is larger diameter.

So why use tape if we hold our pin on it differently than a dot?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Crow Terminator, sorry for the misunderstanding. I guess I didn't understand what you meant by holding differently on tape vs dots.....I was just wanting clarification why tape was helpful if my actual POI would be different after sighting in with tape. I thought the only difference it made would be that it made it easier and consistent. Guess I misunderstood you, though.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[TboneD]

Yes on the question about groups and tape vs dots.
...Whether the person realizes it or not, they will hold their pin on a dot different than they do on a long horizontal piece of tape...particularly if the dot is larger diameter.

So Crow Terminator, I'm still curious. Your answer above was a "yes" to me asking whether groups could change from tape to dots. So why should I still sight in with tape if my groups might be higher or lower with dots, (which seems to be my own experience)? Like I said, I'm sure I just misunderstood you but was wanting YOUR answer, not someone else's, and certainly wasn't trying to argue....with anyoneJust trying to understand the benefit of tape and if there were cases where it wasn't helpful. Again, sorry for the misunderstanding. I was just wanting YOUR clarification. I appreciate the help. Thanks.
Regards, Dave


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Crow Terminator]

Well that is a loaded question with a lot of different answers and situations. I will tell you what I think is happening in your particular case. Some of it depends on the size dot you are shooting at. To some people, all that matters is that the arrow hits the dot. They aren't concerned so much with where in the dot they hit...so much as they just hit the dot itself. The thought might be to go to smaller dots to set your yardage, but if your dot is small, you can introduce another bad part of archery: Trying to control the natural float of the pin, and trying to force it to cover the dot...then you end up smacking the trigger when the pin crosses the dot. That in itself will start to REALLY show up at longer distances; most of the time you will "goose" the shot and hit high. The further away from the target you are, the more it shows in impact places. This is what I think is happening to you. Without being there to watch you shoot, it is just a guess. But having run into this myself and seeing it a lot in other people...I believe this is probably what you are running into. You have your bow yardage set correct with the tape, but are doing something with the bow to try and make the arrow hit the dot, instead of just letting the pin float naturally and the shot happen subconsciously.

I myself, had to get away from even practicing shooting at dots. I wasn't doing the smacking trigger thing but it was how I was holding on the dots that was causing my issues. I could set my sight tape and or pins for dots...then shoot a 3D target without a dot at the same yardage, and hit high. I put this together shooting 3D tournaments. I would have my bow dialed in on hitting dots the size of golf tees, and then on a target without spots, or another arrow to hold on, I would shoot high on it. It really reared its head when I started shooting known yardage classes in ASA...when there was no excuse for those high and low hits when I knew the yardage. I would check my bow on the practice bale or at home, and still be spot on with the dots. I ended up learning to set my yardage tape up without dots and not even practicing with dots to shoot at. You have to keep in mind I am only a target shooter and don't deer hunt anymore. But unless you are shooting fawns...you aren't gonna have spots or dots to shoot at on a deer, and aren't going to have another arrow to hold on to shoot at either.

 

[TboneD]

Crow Terminator, thanks much for taking the time because I think you're right about my problem with dots at 40. I've had varying degrees of target panic for years now. Last deer I shot was with a longbow but I wanted to go back to the compound and sights because I had even more consistency issues with instinctive shooting. But another problem I've got now is that my bow, a little Bear Encounter, is so dang light.

Anyhow, maybe I'll quit shooting dots altogether at 40, for now, and just shoot my 3D deer. I do know better than to shoot at a whitetail at that distance, though. Maybe one day I'll have a heavier bow and can shoot consistently out far. In the mean time, though, I need to just do as old Clint Eastwood and remember my limitations. Thanks again and I hope you and your's have a blessed Labor Day weekend. Dave


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[TNDeerGuy]

I will also add, that it is different for everyone. One person can shoot dots all day long, and another can't—that is why archery is such a personal and individualized sport. However, you touched on something in that latest post that got me and very well maybe the root of the entire problem, "I've had varying degrees of target panic for years now." It touched me because I've been there multiple times with TP. You may want to incorporate aiming exercises into your practice regiment, regardless of if you are shooting at blank 3D targets, dots, squares or unicorns. If your brain controls the shot, because you have lost the ability to focus on what you are aiming to hit because internally you are scared to miss that mark, then you are gonna hit just off of what you are aiming at in the direction you came in from. When I go through a bout with it, I always hit just high of what I'm trying to aim at because I came down from the top—it was always the same 2" high regardless of yardage of anything past 25yds.....that was my mental tripping point.

 

[TboneD]

I will also add, that it is different for everyone. One person can shoot dots all day long, and another can't—that is why archery is such a personal and individualized sport. However, you touched on something in that latest post that got me and very well maybe the root of the entire problem, "I've had varying degrees of target panic for years now." It touched me because I've been there multiple times with TP. You may want to incorporate aiming exercises into your practice regiment, regardless of if you are shooting at blank 3D targets, dots, squares or unicorns. If your brain controls the shot, because you have lost the ability to focus on what you are aiming to hit because internally you are scared to miss that mark, then you are gonna hit just off of what you are aiming at in the direction you came in from. When I go through a bout with it, I always hit just high of what I'm trying to aim at because I came down from the top—it was always the same 2" high regardless of yardage of anything past 25yds.....that was my mental tripping point.

Yeah, TP is a pain, and I think it just about always makes me shoot high as well. Anyhow, you bring up something I read about in an interview in F&S with Levi (?), a 3D shooter. He said aiming practice was the best cure for TP, so thanks a bunch for the reminder. Much appreciated, Dave


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[TNDeerGuy]

I will also add, that it is different for everyone. One person can shoot dots all day long, and another can't—that is why archery is such a personal and individualized sport. However, you touched on something in that latest post that got me and very well maybe the root of the entire problem, "I've had varying degrees of target panic for years now." It touched me because I've been there multiple times with TP. You may want to incorporate aiming exercises into your practice regiment, regardless of if you are shooting at blank 3D targets, dots, squares or unicorns. If your brain controls the shot, because you have lost the ability to focus on what you are aiming to hit because internally you are scared to miss that mark, then you are gonna hit just off of what you are aiming at in the direction you came in from. When I go through a bout with it, I always hit just high of what I'm trying to aim at because I came down from the top—it was always the same 2" high regardless of yardage of anything past 25yds.....that was my mental tripping point.

Yeah, TP is a pain, and I think it just about always makes me shoot high as well. Anyhow, you bring up something I read about in an interview in F&S with Levi (?), a 3D shooter. He said aiming practice was the best cure for TP, so thanks a bunch for the reminder. Much appreciated, Dave


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I firmly believe it is. A top level Olympic Coach told me how to do it and it cured mine and keeps me in check. Start at 5yds draw, put pressure on your trigger, put the pin in the dot and count to 5 and let down. If you cannot get to 5, pick a number that is easily obtainable like 2 or 3. After you can do it at 5yds, take a couple of steps back and repeat—keep doing it until there is no anxiety in doing the exercise and never fire the arrow. At some point, 25yds, was mine—you will feel a ton of anxiety and you just have to push through it. If you can't do it without prematurely firing the arrow, take some steps forward. The idea is to re-train your brain that you can hold/float the pin on what you want to hit. What happens is you get near what you want to hit, your brain takes over and makes you fire the shot because it is afraid of missing....that is what you have to get out of it—that you can.

Archery is one of, if not the biggest, mentally controlled sports—95% mental IMO. A monkey can easily be taught how to shoot a bow, but to do it with precision takes all kinds of mental preparation and control.

If you need help, I'm here in Mt. Juliet.

 

[TboneD]

I will also add, that it is different for everyone. One person can shoot dots all day long, and another can't—that is why archery is such a personal and individualized sport. However, you touched on something in that latest post that got me and very well maybe the root of the entire problem, "I've had varying degrees of target panic for years now." It touched me because I've been there multiple times with TP. You may want to incorporate aiming exercises into your practice regiment, regardless of if you are shooting at blank 3D targets, dots, squares or unicorns. If your brain controls the shot, because you have lost the ability to focus on what you are aiming to hit because internally you are scared to miss that mark, then you are gonna hit just off of what you are aiming at in the direction you came in from. When I go through a bout with it, I always hit just high of what I'm trying to aim at because I came down from the top—it was always the same 2" high regardless of yardage of anything past 25yds.....that was my mental tripping point.

Yeah, TP is a pain, and I think it just about always makes me shoot high as well. Anyhow, you bring up something I read about in an interview in F&S with Levi (?), a 3D shooter. He said aiming practice was the best cure for TP, so thanks a bunch for the reminder. Much appreciated, Dave


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I firmly believe it is. A top level Olympic Coach told me how to do it and it cured mine and keeps me in check. Start at 5yds draw, put pressure on your trigger, put the pin in the dot and count to 5 and let down. If you cannot get to 5, pick a number that is easily obtainable like 2 or 3. After you can do it at 5yds, take a couple of steps back and repeat—keep doing it until there is no anxiety in doing the exercise and never fire the arrow. At some point, 25yds, was mine—you will feel a ton of anxiety and you just have to push through it. If you can't do it without prematurely firing the arrow, take some steps forward. The idea is to re-train your brain that you can hold/float the pin on what you want to hit. What happens is you get near what you want to hit, your brain takes over and makes you fire the shot because it is afraid of missing....that is what you have to get out of it—that you can.

Archery is one of, if not the biggest, mentally controlled sports—95% mental IMO. A monkey can easily be taught how to shoot a bow, but to do it with precision takes all kinds of mental preparation and control.

If you need help, I'm here in Mt. Juliet.

Wow. If only I'd gotten that advice ten years ago. I actually put the bow down for a while...and thankfully I'm pretty sure I won't have too much trouble (yet) with not squeezing off shots. I'm gonna definitely take your advice to keep it in check. Thanks, man. We're down in MS at the family reunion and I punched it and almost missed the dern target at only 30 yesterday. Should've known. Bunch of folks behind me, my cousin by me talking to me, and my nephews small target was a recipe for disaster. Happy Labor Day and thanks so much for the help, Dave


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[bowhunter163]

I will also add, that it is different for everyone. One person can shoot dots all day long, and another can't—that is why archery is such a personal and individualized sport. However, you touched on something in that latest post that got me and very well maybe the root of the entire problem, "I've had varying degrees of target panic for years now." It touched me because I've been there multiple times with TP. You may want to incorporate aiming exercises into your practice regiment, regardless of if you are shooting at blank 3D targets, dots, squares or unicorns. If your brain controls the shot, because you have lost the ability to focus on what you are aiming to hit because internally you are scared to miss that mark, then you are gonna hit just off of what you are aiming at in the direction you came in from. When I go through a bout with it, I always hit just high of what I'm trying to aim at because I came down from the top—it was always the same 2" high regardless of yardage of anything past 25yds.....that was my mental tripping point.

Yeah, TP is a pain, and I think it just about always makes me shoot high as well. Anyhow, you bring up something I read about in an interview in F&S with Levi (?), a 3D shooter. He said aiming practice was the best cure for TP, so thanks a bunch for the reminder. Much appreciated, Dave


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I firmly believe it is. A top level Olympic Coach told me how to do it and it cured mine and keeps me in check. Start at 5yds draw, put pressure on your trigger, put the pin in the dot and count to 5 and let down. If you cannot get to 5, pick a number that is easily obtainable like 2 or 3. After you can do it at 5yds, take a couple of steps back and repeat—keep doing it until there is no anxiety in doing the exercise and never fire the arrow. At some point, 25yds, was mine—you will feel a ton of anxiety and you just have to push through it. If you can't do it without prematurely firing the arrow, take some steps forward. The idea is to re-train your brain that you can hold/float the pin on what you want to hit. What happens is you get near what you want to hit, your brain takes over and makes you fire the shot because it is afraid of missing....that is what you have to get out of it—that you can.

Archery is one of, if not the biggest, mentally controlled sports—95% mental IMO. A monkey can easily be taught how to shoot a bow, but to do it with precision takes all kinds of mental preparation and control.

If you need help, I'm here in Mt. Juliet.

Luckily my target panic is a little different than most . I do not struggle with letting my pin float , I struggle with too much heel pressure in my bow hand . Which also causes a high point of impact . If I start hitting high , I have to consciously remind myself to relax my bow hand .

It is part of my shot process now and I don't have it show up very often . But every once in a while ........ Once you have it , you always have it . You just have to learn to control it .