WHAT IF? (BigGameGuy)

[Double-D-Team]

TWRA or BigGameGuy,

I'm sure you have heard all the complaints in the world but WHAT IF Tn., used the same system as NC.? In reference to deer tags. Would it not make a big difference in East vs. West Tn. meaning we all pay a higher dollar amount than NC and it would allow more does to be taken which I do believe most people want in keeping with a good buck doe ratio and good management. I know I have the right to travel to areas of TN that I can take more deer but with the cost of things and the high prices people just want travel anymore and want to stay close to home. I'm sure that this question has been asked before and I'm sure it's not easy to please everyone. I fell it would work on so many levels but I'm not the answer. Thank you for your time and yes I thank the TWRA as well for the job they do. But still WHAT IF? Sometimes you have to change the way you look at things in order to make it work better. Thanks again.

 

[BigGameGuy]

I am not familiar with the NC system. can you please explain it?

 

[Double-D-Team]

BigGameGuy,

This may help.

http://www.ncwildlife.org/pg02_Regs/200 ... Digest.pdf
*

 

[BigGameGuy]

I don't see too much of a difference between eastern Tennessee and western North Carolina. Both have counties which are closed to antlerless gun hunting, and both have limited gun antlerless opportunities during gun season. I'm not sure exactly what you are asking for?

 

[Double-D-Team]

Let me put it this way- What If:

TWRA issued 5 tags with a big game lic.
Tags 1 thru 5
#1 Hunters Choice
#2 Hunters Choice
#3 Hunters Choice
#4 Buck Only
#5 Buck Only

These tags can be used during Archery, Muzzleloader or Rifle season. This allow the Archery hunter to use all 5 tags if thats the only weapon of choice and so on for the others type weapons of choice( You see what I'm getting at ). For the amount of money we pay as residents it seem to me I'm getting something or the chance for my hard earned money.

Again not wanting to be a pain just looking outside the box. Thanks for your time.

 

[backstraps]

Let me put it this way- What If:

TWRA issued 5 tags with a big game lic.
Tags 1 thru 5
#1 Hunters Choice
#2 Hunters Choice
#3 Hunters Choice
#4 Buck Only
#5 Buck Only


These tags can be used during Archery, Muzzleloader or Rifle season. This allow the Archery hunter to use all 5 tags if thats the only weapon of choice and so on for the others type weapons of choice( You see what I'm getting at ). For the amount of money we pay as residents it seem to me I'm getting something or the chance for my hard earned money.

Again not wanting to be a pain just looking outside the box. Thanks for your time.

BGG, The way NC allows hunters to use thier allowed tags is an excellent system. I know this topic has been discussed before, but maybe this could be something given some attention for East Tn.

 

[BSK]

backstraps and Double "D",

I don't want to speak for the TWRA because I don't work for them. But I think hunters have the wrong impression that the TWRA is "anti-doe-killing." They are not (now). Perhaps they are being too cautious about doe harvests in East TN, but they want to be sure opening up doe harvests won't undo years of restoration work. Although I'm a big proponent of doe harvests, I do see where they are coming from. A "rather safe than sorry" attitude isn't always bad from the controlling body that is reponsible to all hunters.

 

[backstraps]

BSK, I understand entirely where TWRA is coming from, and can appreciate their stand.

The troubling thing in my opinion about unit B is how different county by county is up here.
In your region, basically each county can "hold its own" in harvest figures to support being inside the rules of Unit A or Unit L.
Unit B is so diversified, that we have counties that could easily afford to be inside Unit A and not deplete the herd. So our best counties in Unit B is now suffering from the lack of doe harvest. The possiblity of TWRA micro managing these counties with doe tags isnt getting enough does harvested.
I know you and I have had conversation about buck to doe ratios before.. but I would love to take TWRA on a thermal image survey. I can drive to areas in 3-4 different counties on farms where there is literally 100 deer seen and you are lucky to see 6-10 antlered deer. These counties need help.

 

[BSK]

BSK, I understand entirely where TWRA is coming from, and can appreciate their stand.

The troubling thing in my opinion about unit B is how different county by county is up here.

And it's even worse than that. It is vastly different from location to location within counties. And that brings up the problem of micro-management. Micro-management from a regulation standpoint is a real can of worms.

counties that could easily afford to be inside Unit A and not deplete the herd. So our best counties in Unit B is now suffering from the lack of doe harvest. The possiblity of TWRA micro managing these counties with doe tags isnt getting enough does harvested.

I don't have much experience with those areas, so I can't comment. I guess my position is, I'll let the state decide what the deer densities in the area are once they've collected enough data. I have high hopes for their experimental thermal imaging procedures.


I know you and I have had conversation about buck to doe ratios before.. but I would love to take TWRA on a thermal image survey. I can drive to areas in 3-4 different counties on farms where there is literally 100 deer seen and you are lucky to see 6-10 antlered deer.[/quote]

The TWRA has been surveying Unit B counties, and the sex ratios are nowhere near as bad as hunters think. This is actually extremely common perception problem in areas where does have been somewhat protected and bucks exploited. Bucks don't move during daylight hence are not seen while protected does move in daylight with impunity, making them highly visible. This produces highly skewed daylight observed sex ratios. I believe the worst pre-hunt sex ratios the thermal imaging has found is only in the range of 2.5 - 2.7 does per buck. This sounds right, as sex ratios exceeding 3 does per buck would be highly unlikely (virtually impossible) unless the herd was very unhealthy.

 

[BSK]

...and that situation is somewhat unique to unit B (eastern TN valley/mountain region) as a whole. Some type of mediam managment system needs to be found.

I agree.

There is just no easy answer to solve this delima in my opinion.

I agree with that as well. Micro-management opens a whole big can of worms. Micro-management also requires extra manpower (and funds) of the managing agency, something in very short and declining supply right now.

 

[BSK]

I agree with this as well. Unit B needs attention and needs to be micro-managed. IMO

That certainly would be best, but who is going to foot the bill for it? Hunters seem highly opposed to paying for these processes through higher licsense fees, and that is where the agency gets its funding.

New sources of funding will have to be found to do all the things hunters want done, and right now, every state government is scrambling for every available public dollar.

 

[Double-D-Team]

BSK, Double-D-Team here and good to hear from you again it has been at least a good year for us.

I do understand what your saying and where you are coming from. But as an example this past season I and my partner took extra note to how many deer seen and photo's take in different area in which we spent more time afield this year than ever, but saw on an average of 16 does to 1 buck in Johnson Co. 4 different properties the smallest being 19.7 arcers. Unit B as a hold is in need of a hard look by the TWRA and its doe buck ratio states??

But as always it is good to be back were deer hunters talk real hunting problems.

Backstrap you are right on the money with me I think.....

 

[Double-D-Team]

tndrbstr?? Was this in what period of time.? One day all season?

I'm not saying I'm not seeing bucks I'm saying that on average I'm seing 16 doe's to 1 buck thru the season average.

We keep a record of:
Date Hunted, Deer seen, type deer, weather, time ( The same data on my (8)trail camera's)on 4 properties.

 

[mike243]

well 1 thing about it,if your not seeing many bucks killing does might drop it more,carrying capacitys differ,whats the natural buck/doe % ? ,the reason a lot of propertys are trying to get a 1/1 ratio is to bring the bucks out during daylite to make them compete for the doe's & shootable,its a trade off,my .02 :) ,mike243

 

[BigGameGuy]

I'm not saying I'm not seeing bucks I'm saying that on average I'm seing 16 doe's to 1 buck thru the season average.

My first question is how many of those 16 deer were fawns? Oftentimes hunters call every antlerless deer a doe. This automatically skews the data since fawns should not be counted in a survey that tries to calculate adult buck-to-doe ratios. Secondly,can you be sure some of those does weren't re-counted. In other word, did you see all 16 does at once? The chance of double counting can also affect results.

Here is some of the thermal data gathered from Unit B this past year.

With over 1,000 observations of individual deer in ten different counties, I feel pretty confident our ratios are well under 3:1 in that area. As you can see, some counties are better than others, but we must lump the counties together, not only for data purposes but for management purposes as well.

 

[backstraps]

BGG.. could you describe what a sighting actually is? Just for example/Hawkins County how many different locations did those sightings come from? Were they multible sightings on the same piece of property?

Does certain counties get more than one night out? The number of deer seen seems so very low for a couple of unit B counties, unless that was in a 3-4 hour drive on one night.

 

[backstraps]

BSK, I understand entirely where TWRA is coming from, and can appreciate their stand.

The troubling thing in my opinion about unit B is how different county by county is up here.
In your region, basically each county can "hold its own" in harvest figures to support being inside the rules of Unit A or Unit L.
Unit B is so diversified, that we have counties that could easily afford to be inside Unit A and not deplete the herd. So our best counties in Unit B is now suffering from the lack of doe harvest. The possiblity of TWRA micro managing these counties with doe tags isnt getting enough does harvested.
I know you and I have had conversation about buck to doe ratios before.. but I would love to take TWRA on a thermal image survey. I can drive to areas in 3-4 different counties on farms where there is literally 100 deer seen and you are lucky to see 6-10 antlered deer. These counties need help.

I agree,..and that situation is somewhat unique to unit B (eastern TN valley/mountain region) as a whole. Some type of mediam managment system needs to be found. Perhaps thru cooperation with the university of TN wildlife and biology div. or some other means...The habitat and demographics changes within individual counties are just to diversified for lump county regulations in all cases....There is just no easy answer to solve this delima in my opinion.

No offense towards TWRA, but in reality, the agency cannot afford to conduct such studies that is needed in unit B. I think the idea of having UT Wildlife and Biology Division or others study and report to the agency and commssion is an excellent idea. The numbers that 1 or 2 biologist, and a handful of officers report cannot be sufficient to lumpsum regulate the entire region.

 

[BigGameGuy]

BGG.. could you describe what a sighting actually is? Just for example/Hawkins County how many different locations did those sightings come from? Were they multible sightings on the same piece of property?

Does certain counties get more than one night out? The number of deer seen seems so very low for a couple of unit B counties, unless that was in a 3-4 hour drive on one night.

A sighting is a deer or group of deer. These are all individual sightings, in other words we are not looking at the same deer on different nights. Our routes are usually conducted in one night and are spread out far enough that we're 99.9% sure we don't count the same deer twice.

 

[BigGameGuy]

I think the idea of having UT Wildlife and Biology Division or others study and report to the agency and commssion is an excellent idea.

That sounds great until you realize that TWRA would have to pay UT to conduct these surveys. We have umteen contracts with various universities reimbursing them for time spent gathering data for us. No matter what, it will cost us money. Unfortunately, right now, we don't have too much money to spare.

 

[backstraps]

I think the idea of having UT Wildlife and Biology Division or others study and report to the agency and commssion is an excellent idea.

That sounds great until you realize that TWRA would have to pay UT to conduct these surveys. We have umteen contracts with various universities reimbursing them for time spent gathering data for us. No matter what, it will cost us money. Unfortunately, right now, we don't have too much money to spare.

I gotcha.. I thought maybe the studies through UT would be "cheap enough" rather than actual agency employees doing it all.

 

[backstraps]

BGG.. could you describe what a sighting actually is? Just for example/Hawkins County how many different locations did those sightings come from? Were they multible sightings on the same piece of property?

Does certain counties get more than one night out? The number of deer seen seems so very low for a couple of unit B counties, unless that was in a 3-4 hour drive on one night.

A sighting is a deer or group of deer. These are all individual sightings, in other words we are not looking at the same deer on different nights. Our routes are usually conducted in one night and are spread out far enough that we're 99.9% sure we don't count the same deer twice.

Okay I understand better now. You answered a couple of my next questions... I would be curious though, on some of the counties, are these sightings conducted via public road, wma, or where someone has had a developed qdm in place and invited you as guest to conduct a study?

I know what we see at night and what the thermal image shows are literally daylight to dark, and with the TI, we cant see as many deer as you guys..but at night on farms I am allowed to hunt, public roads, huge fields near Boone Lake..farms in Johnson, Carter, Sullivan, Greene, Washington, and Hawkins Counties.. we dont see that ratio day or night, and not even close.

I guess any comparison we would have is camera cenus...and visual during daylight hours.

I would love to know one of our farms has 4-1 or better, and would probably argue anything better that 6/7-1 without thermal proof.

 

[BSK]

BSK, Double-D-Team here and good to hear from you again it has been at least a good year for us.

I do understand what your saying and where you are coming from. But as an example this past season I and my partner took extra note to how many deer seen and photo's take in different area in which we spent more time afield this year than ever, but saw on an average of 16 does to 1 buck in Johnson Co. 4 different properties the smallest being 19.7 arcers. Unit B as a hold is in need of a hard look by the TWRA and its doe buck ratio states??

But as always it is good to be back were deer hunters talk real hunting problems.

Backstrap you are right on the money with me I think.....

First, daylight observations won't tell you anything about the real adult sex ratio, especially in areas with differential harvest pressure by sex. Behavior of the deer will drive what is observed, not what is actually in the herd.

Second, sightings in localized spots can be just about anything. Deer do not "spread out" like most would assume. Very high deer densities can exist right next to very low densities. Sexual seggregation can also occur (one spot becoming heavily dminated by does while another is dominated by bucks). This can produced highly skewed localized ratios.

Lastly, when larger areas (a couple of square miles) are looked at, as long as fawn production is adequate, highly skewed sex ratios are biologically impossible at the beginning of the hunting season. I can show you the calculations if you like, but even if hunters killed every antlered buck alive and killed no does at all, the sex ratio the following year would start out no worse than 3:1. The huge fawn crops produced each year swamp the numbers as those fawns join the adult population on their first birthdays. More than half of those big fawn crops are male, creating a huge number of yearling bucks recruited into the adult population every year.

Now by the end of the hunting season, any sex ratio is possible due to hunter harvest. Hunters removing 75% of the buck population but only a few does will produce a post-hunt sex ratio that is highly skewed.

 

[BSK]

well 1 thing about it,if your not seeing many bucks killing does might drop it more,carrying capacitys differ,whats the natural buck/doe % ? ,the reason a lot of propertys are trying to get a 1/1 ratio is to bring the bucks out during daylite to make them compete for the doe's & shootable,its a trade off,my .02 :) ,mike243

mike243,

The best studies of "natural" sex ratios come from very large areas that either have been unhunted for many years, or very large single properties (tens of thousands of acres) that see so little harvest pressure that the few deer removed each year wouldn't affect actual sex ratios (only a tiny percent of the total deer population harvested each year).

So far, the numbers keep coming back as about 1.2 or 1.3 does per buck. That appears to be a "natural" sex ratio. The slightly higher number of adult does is probably due to higher natural mortality of bucks (fighting, rutting behavior injuries).

 

[BSK]

BGG.. could you describe what a sighting actually is? Just for example/Hawkins County how many different locations did those sightings come from? Were they multible sightings on the same piece of property?

Does certain counties get more than one night out? The number of deer seen seems so very low for a couple of unit B counties, unless that was in a 3-4 hour drive on one night.

A sighting is a deer or group of deer. These are all individual sightings, in other words we are not looking at the same deer on different nights. Our routes are usually conducted in one night and are spread out far enough that we're 99.9% sure we don't count the same deer twice.

Okay I understand better now. You answered a couple of my next questions... I would be curious though, on some of the counties, are these sightings conducted via public road, wma, or where someone has had a developed qdm in place and invited you as guest to conduct a study?

I believe the TWRA has conducted some specific TI surveys within WMAs, but the majority of the surveys occur along public roads.

I know what we see at night and what the thermal image shows are literally daylight to dark, and with the TI, we cant see as many deer as you guys..but at night on farms I am allowed to hunt, public roads, huge fields near Boone Lake..farms in Johnson, Carter, Sullivan, Greene, Washington, and Hawkins Counties.. we dont see that ratio day or night, and not even close.

A couple of points:

First I think most don't understand how large of an area is covered in these surveys. On the surveys I've run with BGG in Middle TN, we cover many miles of rural road in a single night (BGG, any idea how many miles are covered on average per night?).

Second, the TI "sees" many more deer than could ever be seen in car headlights or even with a spotlight. Tests of spotlights side by side with the TI found that the spotlights only saw a small percent of the deer the TI could see.

Sample size is everything, especially in a summer TI census. On the nights I have worked with BGG, it's EXTREMELY common to run for miles seeing only does and fawns. Then all of a sudden a pocket holding a couple of big buck bachelor groups is encountered. This is normal deer behavior in the summer. During the summer fawning season extreme sexual segregation can occur, with does and fawns dominating one area and buck bachelor goups inhabitating different areas. The more miles of road covered and the more total deer seen, the more accurate the numbers. Notice how individual county numbers BGG posted show a wide range of adult sex ratios, yet when all of the numbers are combined (a much larger sample size) the sex ratio falls into a more realistic range. If a 1,000 deer were counted in each county, the big differences in sex ratio between counties would virtually dissappear.

I would love to know one of our farms has 4-1 or better, and would probably argue anything better that 6/7-1 without thermal proof.

Again, over large areas (a couple of square miles), as long as fawn production is adequate, it is biologically impossible to have pre-hunt sex ratios exceeding 3:1.

 

[A.K.A.]

Let me put it this way- What If:

TWRA issued 5 tags with a big game lic.
Tags 1 thru 5
#1 Hunters Choice
#2 Hunters Choice
#3 Hunters Choice
#4 Buck Only
#5 Buck Only

These tags can be used during Archery, Muzzleloader or Rifle season. This allow the Archery hunter to use all 5 tags if thats the only weapon of choice and so on for the others type weapons of choice( You see what I'm getting at ). For the amount of money we pay as residents it seem to me I'm getting something or the chance for my hard earned money.

Again not wanting to be a pain just looking outside the box. Thanks for your time.

Yea, I don't see what difference it would make on when you harvested your animal. The only thing is loss of revenue for TWRA. People would simply buy a gun permit and forget the archery and muzz part. This might lead to higher gun permit prices.

 

[RecurveShooter]

The routes are chosen randomly by computer. They are about 12 miles each, we have been sampling 3-4 per county, and they are all public roads. We have surveyed management areas but that data would not be used to apply to an entire county or region. We are also looking at areas that have had deer density surveys using other methods so we can compare them.

 

[deerchaser007]

BGG,.. would you be willing to post a different thread about the thermal imaging and post that same data with unit A and L counties that have been conducted thus far?

Thats the data i been wanting to see. VERY INTERESTING!!!

Those TI's are awesome for data collection.

 

[Double-D-Team]

Well guys, I don't know if the data I keep all season was worth the time an effort now. Bottom line is I saw more doe's on 4 properties then bucks.

BSK,BigGameGuy; can you tell me a good way of keeping stats??? or what stats to keep?

I'm trying to keep up on the properties I hunt.

 

[BigGameGuy]

A trail camera census will give you a much better representation of what is on your property, simply because it will catch some of the deer that are moving at night. Keep in mind, there may be some deer you never photograph as well as extreme temporal shifts within the properties. In other words, the deer that are using your property during the summer may not be there during the fall. That's why it's a great idea to run your cameras throughout the hunting season. It's also the ideal time to assign ages to your bucks. Anyhow, BSK can give you much better information about running a trail camera census than I can. He's been running them a lot longer than me (he's like twice as old as I am... :D ).

 

[backstraps]

BGG, BSK Thanks again! I appreciate your time and effort.
BSK, your comments makes perfect sense. I am by no means trying to argue with either of you. Just trying to understand something I am not seeing with my own eyes, cameras, or surveys.


BGG, your last post stated something I would love to talk with you or Bryan on the phone...temporal shifts. If I could figure that one out, I think I could have more fun one two pieces of property I hunt!! LOL THANKS AGAIN!